When to throw the red flag

[ark steel]

I have no idea what point you were trying to make with the pats*** game one year before the SB. What the hell are you talking about?

Also you guys live in your own echo chamber. Same ****... Team loses BEN SUCKS!! Team wins because Ben brings them back LOOK AT TOMLIN'S TEAM!! Same **** different game. Tomlin isn't close to a great coach. I'm sure you believe he is but that doesn't make it true. If I had told you after his one SB win that he wouldn't win another SB in 10 years and counting with Ben on the team every single year you wouldn't believe it. I wouldn't have either. But changing OC, DC, scouts, OL coach, Lb coaches ETC... one thing remains the same.... Tomlin.

My point about the *'s game is this incredible shouting and gnashing of the teeth after Tomlin, all by himself, lost to the *'s and his ****** D coaching allowed them to rack up...wait for it...36 points. Meanwhile, cowhers team, with way better D players (which no one can question) gave up 41 points. So, was cowher a terrible D coach? Or did the players just underperform?

Very few people say Ben sucks. SOME of know when he blows it, and blows it good, i.e. the first jax game last year, id say the Cleveland game this year. Most of us, outside of the SN Circle Jerk, said the 2nd jax loss was a full team loss. Ben gave them 10-14 points, a ****** play call on 4th and one. Some ridiculous fuckups on decisions on what to do towards the end of the game.

All around a fuckup. Not for the SN Circle Jerk, it was ALL Tomlin.

Complaints about the D giving Bortles so many passing yards. Clearly, a flaw in Tomlin's D. Only a poorly coached team would allow THAT! No mention of the next week when he put up more yards against the great Belichick.

 

[ark steel]

I should add, that you believing tomlin isn't close, does not make that true, either.

 

[topseed]

Winning. He's good at winning.

Tomlin hasn't been "good at winning" in the playoffs lately. 3-5 in the last 7 years. Those three triumphs were against these starting quarterbacks:

AJ McCarron
Matt Moore
Alex Smith

3 wins versus 2 career backups and a guy with a 2-5 lifetime playoff record. 5 losses.

Not good.

 

[topseed]

The inherited players argument is weak. you have to coach the players you have, and if that was the case of only winning with inherited players, he should have a losing record by now.

Also all great coaches are linked to a great QB. Every. Single. One. It's a unicorn to have a great coach linked to 2. Only Walsh with Montana and Young. Read the list of SB winners, and all time coaching wins, and it's linked to a QB-Coach tandem Every. Single. Time.

Don Shula, who has the most wins of them all, might indeed be "linked to a great QB" by association, but he was already a head coach for nearly 20 years before Dan Marino was drafted. Of Shula's 328 wins, Marino accounted for 116. This great coach won over 200 NFL games and 2 Super Bowls. Without. Dan. Marino.

 

[topseed]

I have no idea what that means. I assume it has to do with some other BS myth you want to carry forward?

I dont know that i have ever said Tomlin is a great coach. I think he is close. Significantly closer than the circle jerk group around here thinks he is.

You guys live in your very own echo chamber. Can't wait to jump on the board to gloat about how Ben bailed out Tomlin, again, or, even after Ben throws 2 pick 6's and 3 other ints, that it was Tomlin's gameplan that was the reason we lost.

If someone speaks up, they must be shouted down or called Tomlin nuthuggers. Sorta like another group we know about, but aren't supposed to mention on this side of the board. Maybe you guys can get some AntiTo balaklavas.

Hell, pop has a thread about how bad Tomlin's team is after the bye, when he is 9th best.

Actually, I could wait to jump on the board, since the game ended around 4pm, and I posted the thread at 11. Tell me, what "BS myth" did I attempt to propagate?

Were Tomlin's challenges used intelligently that day? Did I miss something? Were Tomlin's timeouts used intelligently that day? Did I miss something else?

Ben DID save the day by overcoming TOMLIN'S ****** use of the challenge flag and mismanagement of the clock, which DID cost the Steelers both points and time to run their two-minute offense at the end. That's not gloating, it's a ******* fact.

 

[ark steel]

Don Shula, who has the most wins of them all, might indeed be "linked to a great QB" by association, but he was already a head coach for nearly 20 years before Dan Marino was drafted. Of Shula's 328 wins, Marino accounted for 116. This great coach won over 200 NFL games and 2 Super Bowls. Without. Dan. Marino.

Hall of famer Bob Griese says hi.

 

[ark steel]

Actually, I could wait to jump on the board, since the game ended around 4pm, and I posted the thread at 11. Tell me, what "BS myth" did I attempt to propagate?

Were Tomlin's challenges used intelligently that day? Did I miss something? Were Tomlin's timeouts used intelligently that day? Did I miss something else?

Ben DID save the day by overcoming TOMLIN'S ****** use of the challenge flag and mismanagement of the clock, which DID cost the Steelers both points and time to run their two-minute offense at the end. That's not gloating, it's a ******* fact.

Well if it isn't the pivot boy of the SNCJ club.

It is a fact or conjecture that the challenge would have been won? Connor confirmed there was no replay in the stadium (why there is no replay person in the booth is another question and i dont know whose decisi9j that was. There used to be one because announcers have mentioned it.)

 

[Stryker]

Sorry but you're wrong. Switzer won in his 2nd year. I simply stated that both Switzer (which you are wrong about) and Gruden took teams to the SB and people on here always talk about them saying they took someone else's team and won. Tomlin did the same thing. Just because he had almost the exact same team 2 years after his SB win doesn't change that. He's won nothing in 10 years.

Just BTW Tampa Bay had MORE starters that weren't from the previous HC in Gruden's first year than Tomlin did in his 2nd year when he won the SB. Tomlin did the exact same thing as both of those guys. Just because he's been able to stay longer doesn't change that. He's an ok coach in a great situation.

Also the Steelers haven't lost to the pats*** every year. They lost to Jax last year. They should have lost to the bungles a couple of years ago before the bungles showed who they were. They lost to Denver a couple of years ago as well. They got hammered by the rats in 2012 and 2015. So the idea that the pats*** are the only thing standing from cool shades and unlimited SB wins is a myth. As a matter of fact Tomlin has only lost ONCE to NE in the playoffs because that's as many times as he's seen them.

Also I have no idea about GB. I know they were injury prone for several years and could barely field a healthy DB. But he's won as many SB as Tomlin has but I don't hear anybody talking about him being a great coach. There have been rumblings in GB about changes there too.

Switzer and Gruden weaken the argument. Sure they won in years 1-2, and never sniffed a SB afterward. Gruden had a losing record the next year, and a 4 win season 2 years after the SB. Switzer had a losing record 2 years after the SB and was fired, and never came back to coaching.

I'm not getting into playoff outcomes, because it's not my argument. Tomlin is not Gruden or Switzer

 

[Stryker]

Don Shula, who has the most wins of them all, might indeed be "linked to a great QB" by association, but he was already a head coach for nearly 20 years before Dan Marino was drafted. Of Shula's 328 wins, Marino accounted for 116. This great coach won over 200 NFL games and 2 Super Bowls. Without. Dan. Marino.

It did help that Shula had 2 HOF QBs. Bob Griese being the other. But I agree Shula is the benchmark of excellent coaches, and did so by winning. Tomlin is #2 all time in wins, behind Shula, for the same amount of seasons played, so there is that as well.

 

[Stryker]

Tomlin hasn't been "good at winning" in the playoffs lately. 3-5 in the last 7 years. Those three triumphs were against these starting quarterbacks:

AJ McCarron
Matt Moore
Alex Smith

3 wins versus 2 career backups and a guy with a 2-5 lifetime playoff record. 5 losses.

Not good.

And what's your point? It doesn't take away the fact that Tomlin is #2 all time in wins for his first 11 seasons. One game behind Shula.

Shula never won a suberbowl with Dan freakin Marino! So I guess Shula is a terrible coach as well with that logic.

The fact is, football is a game. It is difficult to assume or expect success every year, because you have 31 other teams competing for the same goal. The variables within a single game are so complex, that it boggles the mind to think about 22 football players and their impact on each individual play.

And I'm fair as all. Tomlin is far from perfect, but he's much farther from being terrible.

 

[Vader]

Switzer and Gruden weaken the argument. Sure they won in years 1-2, and never sniffed a SB afterward. Gruden had a losing record the next year, and a 4 win season 2 years after the SB. Switzer had a losing record 2 years after the SB and was fired, and never came back to coaching.

I'm not getting into playoff outcomes, because it's not my argument. Tomlin is not Gruden or Switzer

Strange that now it's year 1 AND 2. When before it was just year ONE. Nice gloss over. I guess it's hard to admit when you're wrong so you just bypass the fact and keep the same argument like it didn't happen. Switzer won a SB PERIOD! He has EXACTLY the same number of SBs that Tomlin has and he only coached 4 years. Same with Gruden. You act as if the Steelers aren't a better run organization. TB has never done anything before or after Gruden.

Also YOU brought up the pats** not me. Now of course you don't want to talk about playoff outcomes because it defeats your argument. Tomlin has lost only once to the pats*** because he's played them only once. They aren't the reason he's sucked in the playoffs the past 10 years.

Also Seifert is way above Tomlin. He won 2 SB in 8 years. He only coached 8. He missed the playoffs just once with a 10-6 record. Never lost more than 6 games. Won double digit games every year. He knew how to use a HOF QB. And he actually had to contend with Dallas in it's prime. He had the number 1 offense 5 out of his 8 years. Please...

 

[Superman]

yeah, Tomlin did get a lot of Cowher's players. Undeniable.
Tomlin did also manage to keep a lot of them here and not go off to other teams. So, he has that going for him. Instead of blowing up a talented team, complete with quality DC and OC. He learned to manage behind those guys, as this was his first (and only) HC job.

On the flip, he could have come in, traded Hines Ward and Troy for draft picks so he could put his own stamp on the team. Instead, he saw he had a **** ton of talent drafted and cultivated and did the intelligent thing by keeping those players. He also saw he had a HOF QB on a team that just needed some tweeks to get better.

Which was he supposed to do - dump the roster or keep it as it was? There's only one answer.

 

[Vader]

I'm not the one making excuses. If it were JUST the players, they would not have gone 8-8 I 2006 just missing one person. You people are the one with the excuses.

The year before the SB those same players got linked by the *'s , who scored 41 points. I didn't look to see if they were all offensive scores by the *'s.

The fact is those same players are the ones you are saying did it for Tomlin.

Winning with Cowhers players is BS myth you people like to trot out. Then make excuses for why they didn't do t other years. Why didn't they do it in 2009?

Under Tomlin the team went 8-8 and then the next year went 11-5.. why? They went 12-4 one year then 8-8 back to back years. Why? Same players but different results. So why is it horrible for Cowher but no problem for Tomlin? Tomlin won with almost all of Cowher's players. Period. He had a HOF DC, established OC and a HOF QB. Deny all you want but it's true.

 

[ark steel]

It did help that Shula had 2 HOF QBs. Bob Griese being the other. But I agree Shula is the benchmark of excellent coaches, and did so by winning. Tomlin is #2 all time in wins, behind Shula, for the same amount of seasons played, so there is that as well.

At Baltimore, he had some no name QB named Unitas. Another QB, Morral, played one year. Not sure what year, but he was NFL MVP at one point.

 

[ark steel]

Under Tomlin the team went 8-8 and then the next year went 11-5.. why? They went 12-4 one year then 8-8 back to back years. Why? Same players but different results. So why is it horrible for Cowher but no problem for Tomlin? Tomlin won with almost all of Cowher's players. Period. He had a HOF DC, established OC and a HOF QB. Deny all you want but it's true.

You can have facts and still come to a faulty conclusion. Coach does it all of the time.

I didnt say it was horrible for Cowher. "Winning with Cowhers players" is a copout. Someone had to coach them. They didnt just waltz into it.

Win SB, 8-8, 11-5, Then win the SB.

Lots of people think cowher mailed it in that last year. But the players didn't need to be coached because, demonstrably, they didnt do it on their own for the 8-8 season and, just as demonstrably, any **** flinging guy can get those same playersto the SB. Cowher didnt suddenly become a bad coach tbat year (or the losing years).

 

[Drink IRON City]

You can have facts and still come to a faulty conclusion. Coach does it all of the time.

I didnt say it was horrible for Cowher. "Winning with Cowhers players" is a copout. Someone had to coach them. They didnt just waltz into it.

Win SB, 8-8, 11-5, Then win the SB.

Lots of people think cowher mailed it in that last year. But the players didn't need to be coached because, demonstrably, they didnt do it on their own for the 8-8 season and, just as demonstrably, any **** flinging guy can get those same playersto the SB. Cowher didnt suddenly become a bad coach tbat year (or the losing years).

I'd match my "One Armed **** flinging monkeys" against your any **** flinging guy.........................ANYTIME..!!!




Salute the nation

 

[ark steel]

I'd match my "One Armed **** flinging monkeys" against your any **** flinging guy.........................ANYTIME..!!!




Salute the nation

I shied away from that phrase....

 

[Vader]

You can have facts and still come to a faulty conclusion.

Just as you have done here. Cower has nothing to do with Tomlin's inability to get to another SB. He left him a great team with a HOF QB. I don't think Cowher mailed it in. I don't think Tomlin mailed it in. Sometimes you have down years (Like when your HOF QB is hurt in a motorcycle accident). But to have that type of talent for 10 years and not even make another SB (not even comes close) is on the coach.

 

[ark steel]

Just as you have done here. Cower has nothing to do with Tomlin's inability to get to another SB. He left him a great team with a HOF QB. I don't think Cowher mailed it in. I don't think Tomlin mailed it in. Sometimes you have down years (Like when your HOF QB is hurt in a motorcycle accident). But to have that type of talent for 10 years and not even make another SB (not even comes close) is on the coach.

What if you are missing your HOF QB for 4 games because he was a dipshit and the NFL suspended him? What happens that year? Certainly, you don't go to the Super Bowl, right? Where did all of the talent the last few years come from after "Cowher's players" left? Just walked by on the street asking if they could play a few downs?

I'd guess the AFCC isn't close to the SB.

Same ****, different year. After 2013 year..."Can't make it to the playoffs." After 2014 year, makes it to the playoffs "Can't win a playoff game" After 2015 year...wins playoff game "Can't get to the AFCCG. After 2016 year, gets to the AFCCG "Can't beat *'s". Well, ****, neither could Cowher! In the blowout by the *'s, the Ben lead offense scored a grand total of 17 points. Ben's longest pass was for 30 yards (2 of those).

The fact that the D allowed 36 points is almost irrelevant when your Offense only scores 17.T

he *'s scored less than 17 points a grand total of SIX times over the 2014-2017 seasons (includes playoffs). They scored 30+ games in 29 games over the same period (includes playoffs). So, yeah, it sucked *** that the ****** Tomlin D allowed 36 points. If you thought any D was going to hold them to less than 24-27, you are delusional. When the Offense scores 17, expecting a win is ludicrous. If the D played lights out the might very well have held the *'s to 20-24 points.

 

[slashsteel]

What if you are missing your HOF QB for 4 games because he was a dipshit and the NFL suspended him? What happens that year? Certainly, you don't go to the Super Bowl, right? Where did all of the talent the last few years come from after "Cowher's players" left? Just walked by on the street asking if they could play a few downs?

I'd guess the AFCC isn't close to the SB.

Same ****, different year. After 2013 year..."Can't make it to the playoffs." After 2014 year, makes it to the playoffs "Can't win a playoff game" After 2015 year...wins playoff game "Can't get to the AFCCG. After 2016 year, gets to the AFCCG "Can't beat *'s". Well, ****, neither could Cowher! In the blowout by the *'s, the Ben lead offense scored a grand total of 17 points. Ben's longest pass was for 30 yards (2 of those).

The fact that the D allowed 36 points is almost irrelevant when your Offense only scores 17.T

he *'s scored less than 17 points a grand total of SIX times over the 2014-2017 seasons (includes playoffs). They scored 30+ games in 29 games over the same period (includes playoffs). So, yeah, it sucked *** that the ****** Tomlin D allowed 36 points. If you thought any D was going to hold them to less than 24-27, you are delusional. When the Offense scores 17, expecting a win is ludicrous. If the D played lights out the might very well have held the *'s to 20-24 points.

I don't really have a fight in this convo, but I will say no way did Big Ben deserve that 4 game suspension.

 

[ark steel]

Forgot to add.

I used facts to reach a conclusion that is my opinion, which I do not tout as fact, hence the "I believe he is close"

You use different facts to reach a conclusion that is also an opinion, but you consider a fact.

Same kind of **** like when your boy Idio used to tell me tackles were not important. They seem pretty ******* important now, don't they?

 

[ark steel]

I don't really have a fight in this convo, but I will say no way did Big Ben deserve that 4 game suspension.

I agree, but it happened. We went 3-1 during that time with, I think, Charlie freakin Batch as the starter. Maybe some Leftwich thrown in.

 

[Vader]

What if you are missing your HOF QB for 4 games because he was a dipshit and the NFL suspended him? What happens that year? Certainly, you don't go to the Super Bowl, right? Where did all of the talent the last few years come from after "Cowher's players" left? Just walked by on the street asking if they could play a few downs?

I'd guess the AFCC isn't close to the SB.

Same ****, different year. After 2013 year..."Can't make it to the playoffs." After 2014 year, makes it to the playoffs "Can't win a playoff game" After 2015 year...wins playoff game "Can't get to the AFCCG. After 2016 year, gets to the AFCCG "Can't beat *'s". Well, ****, neither could Cowher! In the blowout by the *'s, the Ben lead offense scored a grand total of 17 points. Ben's longest pass was for 30 yards (2 of those).

The fact that the D allowed 36 points is almost irrelevant when your Offense only scores 17.T

he *'s scored less than 17 points a grand total of SIX times over the 2014-2017 seasons (includes playoffs). They scored 30+ games in 29 games over the same period (includes playoffs). So, yeah, it sucked *** that the ****** Tomlin D allowed 36 points. If you thought any D was going to hold them to less than 24-27, you are delusional. When the Offense scores 17, expecting a win is ludicrous. If the D played lights out the might very well have held the *'s to 20-24 points.

Yes, same **** different year. You can spin it all you want. 10 years 0 SB wins with a HOF QB. Now you're back on the pats*** where again I have no idea what the **** you are talking about. You're just spouting jibberish. I DIDN'T MENTION THE PATS****. You're buddy Cope did and I informed him that Tomlin has only faced them ONCE so you can't use the excuse that they haven't been able to get past them since they almost never meet in the playoffs. So I couldn't care less what the pats scored and when.

 

[Vader]

Forgot to add.

I used facts to reach a conclusion that is my opinion, which I do not tout as fact, hence the "I believe he is close"

You use different facts to reach a conclusion that is also an opinion, but you consider a fact.

Same kind of **** like when your boy Idio used to tell me tackles were not important. They seem pretty ******* important now, don't they?

FACT: 0 SBs in 10 years.
FACT: He had a HOF QB and 20 of 22 starters from Cowher to win his only SB.
FACT: He is 3 and 6 in his last 9 playoff games.

Now for the conclusion which is my opinion. He isn't a great coach. He's ok but a lot of the offense is just Ben being Ben. No coaching, no plays from the sidelines... just let Ben run the offense. So excuse me if I don't bow down to the god Tomlin and worship him like you and others on here.

I also remember one of your Tomlin lovers wanting to trade Ben and drafting Bridgewater. Seems to be pretty ******* important that they didn't do that right?

 

[ark steel]

FACT: 0 SBs in 10 years.
FACT: He had a HOF QB and 20 of 22 starters from Cowher to win his only SB.
FACT: He is 3 and 6 in his last 9 playoff games.

Now for the conclusion which is my opinion. He isn't a great coach. He's ok but a lot of the offense is just Ben being Ben. No coaching, no plays from the sidelines... just let Ben run the offense. So excuse me if I don't bow down to the god Tomlin and worship him like you and others on here.

I also remember one of your Tomlin lovers wanting to trade Ben and drafting Bridgewater. Seems to be pretty ******* important that they didn't do that right?

I think Cowher was a great coach. Until he was, essentially, told to take Ben, he had 0 SB wins. Great defensive players, but could not get over that hump.

Pretty sure it has been established that most of the coaches considered great had franchise QBs. Unless you are Top and have no idea that Shula had losers lime Unitas and Griese.

Your conclusion negates any success that Tomlin has had by "ben being ben", which is ******* ridiculous. Ben has to have somebody to throw those passes to, somebody to catch them.

The winning td vs. the bengals was a 5 yard pass to. Tomlin player who took it to the EZ. Someone had to have taught Hunter it was OK to block lime he did .