Dri 2.0

[insaniti]

Was there some other games you were privy to that the rest of wasn't? On the limited amount of carries he had you we able to determine he has poor vision? On the limited opportunities he lined up at WR you saw that he is a bad route runner?? I don't remember any of these things. He had his problems returning kicks. He has admitted that. Says he needs to slow down read things better instead if just relying on his speed. He also had poor blocking. Blount had the same issues. Even when Wheaton looked better you have to remember he didn't break one either. I saw potential last year. He actually looked better as RB showed no fear running the ball. Didnt look injury prone as others suggested. I think with a year under his belt in the weight room, in the playbook and with coaching we may see some dividends from the pick. Not ready to give up on the guy.

The limited number of carries he had in the pros, and the NUMEROUS opportunities he had in college. It's easy to put together a picture of what he is and what he isn't. The fact that he got such limited action, was pulled from return duty, etc should be telling to some of you guys. If he explodes on to the scene this year, and proves everyone wrong, GREAT! I just don't see that happening. He isn't Darren Sproles, he isn't Jamaal Charles. He's a Stefan Logan clone.

I'm a Steeler fanatic just like the rest of us on the board. I want him to succeed. There are lots of picks the FO has made that I have been dead set against, some I've warmed up to (see Timmons), some I have not (see Archer). It's not that I want them to fail. But I want the team to succeed more than a player to prove me wrong. If we have one player that's on the bubble and he was drafted in the third round, and another player that clearly out performs him, I want that better player on the roster. I don't want draft status to dictate who makes the team. Right now, if I'm the coach, Dri has to absolutely EXPLODE this offseason and preseason. Because the offense is so good, and the players we have are so good, he had better be phenomenal for me to take any of them off the field. He doesn't make this team better, and giving him 5-10 touches a game for a .001% chance he'll break one isn't worth taking Bell, Brown, Bryant off the field.

What he needs to do is nail down the return spot, but in order to do that, he has a TON of work to do. It's partly the blocking, but you also need to set up the blocks properly. You can't rely on just your speed, or just the blocking. And if you don't have the vision, or the ability to set up blocks, you won't be successful and you won't help the team out.

 

[antdrewjosh]

The limited number of carries he had in the pros, and the NUMEROUS opportunities he had in college. It's easy to put together a picture of what he is and what he isn't. The fact that he got such limited action, was pulled from return duty, etc should be telling to some of you guys. If he explodes on to the scene this year, and proves everyone wrong, GREAT! I just don't see that happening. He isn't Darren Sproles, he isn't Jamaal Charles. He's a Stefan Logan clone.

I'm a Steeler fanatic just like the rest of us on the board. I want him to succeed. There are lots of picks the FO has made that I have been dead set against, some I've warmed up to (see Timmons), some I have not (see Archer). It's not that I want them to fail. But I want the team to succeed more than a player to prove me wrong. If we have one player that's on the bubble and he was drafted in the third round, and another player that clearly out performs him, I want that better player on the roster. I don't want draft status to dictate who makes the team. Right now, if I'm the coach, Dri has to absolutely EXPLODE this offseason and preseason. Because the offense is so good, and the players we have are so good, he had better be phenomenal for me to take any of them off the field. He doesn't make this team better, and giving him 5-10 touches a game for a .001% chance he'll break one isn't worth taking Bell, Brown, Bryant off the field.

What he needs to do is nail down the return spot, but in order to do that, he has a TON of work to do. It's partly the blocking, but you also need to set up the blocks properly. You can't rely on just your speed, or just the blocking. And if you don't have the vision, or the ability to set up blocks, you won't be successful and you won't help the team out.

He has already admitted the same and has been working on it with his coaches and watching film. So hopefully we see it on the field. (I was referring to the last paragraph that you wrote)


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...her-looks-to-break-out-as-steelers-return-man

 

[insaniti]

He has already admitted the same and has been working on it with his coaches and watching film. So hopefully we see it on the field. (I was referring to the last paragraph that you wrote)


http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...her-looks-to-break-out-as-steelers-return-man

That I think it was a bad pick on a bad player? It is, and it's been harped on over and over and over again. You don't draft KR/PR specialists in the third round when they have very limited experience at that position. He didn't pan out as a WR in college and his coaches admitted that. He's never going to be a 20 carry RB, and when you have a LeVeon Bell, a do it all type RB, you don't need a gimmick player.

My biggest fear is that he shows no improvement and he doesn't get cut. That they still waste a gameday spot on him for 15-20 touches on the year. It's a waste to me, it doesn't help the team one bit. That's my biggest issue with the whole situation. They pulled him from return duty, but still gave him a helmet on game days.

 

[Stryker]

We don't need the old thread, we have it back right here!

We have 2 arguments going on now:

1) Archer is a wasted draft pick (and shouldn't have been a 3rd rounder).

2) Archer can't play in the NFL (and doesn't have a position).

To be clear, my stance has always been for fairness in arguments. When he was drafted, there were many 'never', 'can't', 'won't', 'isn't' prognostications that were set. Now this creates a situation where people take these arguments very seriously, because they chose to draw a line in the sand and take it as a personal attack if people state not only the contrary, but any position that isn't in total agreement with theirs.

Problem is, Archer did make the team and was used last year. This creates disdain for the player being being on the team since he 'can't play in the NFL', yet is sitting on the Steelers Roster. Archer being on a roster is in direct conflict with those stating he isn't an NFL player. The only recourse now is to break down the player and attack his performance/skillset/coach's intelligence, because the Anti-Archers 'know' he can't play. This my friends is an argument of fallacy.

Now back to his draft position argument. I can see both sides of this argument as having strong merits, which is why it's such a great argument. Anti: He's from a small school, questionable hands, no PR experience, small, short, and undersized. Excellent points and all are true. Pro: He had excellent production and success in yardage and TDs as a RB, and had success as a WR. He was also a very good KR. 2nd fastest 40yd time ever at the combine. Excellent as well. Saying he shouldn't have been taken in the 3rd also has merits to lacking a true position. Possibly more of a 5th-7th round player in the Anti argument. His college productivity, and explosive metrics placed him in the 3rd to 4th predraft (by independent draft graders). One metric, I will argue, has his talent level at a 1-2 round level. I've never seen a player that short stride in that few steps in the 40. No draft/combine enthusiast has been able to even address this, each and every time I bring it up. Megatron is 9" taller than Dri, yet Dri did the 40 in the same amount of record breaking steps as Calvin Johnson. It's an incredible, freak metric that looks like it should equate to leg strength. If he was taller, Dri would easily be a 1 or 2 round pick. His size drops his explosiveness to 3-4 which is exactly where he went. The other argument for utilizing that pick for a position player is also a strong one. We COULD have given the pick to someone who COULD have helped at CB/WR/OL/DL etc. Yet position player picks are still not guarantees.

For 2), his size/height/weight argument is an excellent argument. It's been well documented that players of his size/height/weight metrics usually don't make it in the league, and has been argued expertly. I will take this argument over a can't or won't argument any day, because it is sound. There are players who buck that trend, but we're focusing on Dri now. He did line up at RB and in the slot last year as well as KR. I saw effectiveness running the ball (though I don't understand the decision to rush him between the tackles). He had a 7 catches and 1 or 2 drops, so the arguments both way as being a WR can be made here. He appeared to be tackled easily at times which was a negative, and showed strong willingness to run inside which was a positive for a RB his size. He showed flashes in the preseason to what he can do in the open field with possession (positive). Yet he was demoted from KR and not utilized in a higher capacity when Bell went down (negative). The objective viewing on his production last year was a push. Rookie production, without being able to earn more touches. It may be a fault in coaching, it may be a fault of trying to do to much with speed and playing tight, or off balanced. I feel his strength is his diversity, and if utilized correctly, can make the entire offense more productive. I did see the entire Cleveland defense false step to their right as Dri took a fake handoff and Ben hit a wide open Miller in the opposite flat. We're talking no one within 15yds of him. So there is merit to teams respecting his speed if it's utilized correctly.

It looks like the balance of the arguments is what makes Dri such a lightning-rod for support/disdain. The Anti-Archers won't be right until he's out of the league, and the Pro-Archers won't be right until he shows consistent production. I just want to see what he can do. That is, if he makes the roster this year...

 

[Superman]

Cope's a voyeur to the Dri CJC

 

[antdrewjosh]

Cope you presented both sides of the argument objectively kudos.

 

[antdrewjosh]

As far as his college coach saying he can't play WR here is his full answer.

Don't count Kent State head coach Paul Haynes as someone buying into the "Dri Archer, Slot Receiver" plan.

He appeared on TribLive Radio Friday with John Steigerwald speaking about his former player, the Steelers' third round pick who's being considered by the Steelers as a running back and a wide receiver.


"I think he's an unbelievable running back, and if I had to do it over all over again, I would have just kept him at running back, Haynes said. "When you list the things you love in a running back, and what most coaches want in a running back, you want him to have great vision, great burst, great feet, you want him to be durable and those are the things Dri Archer is, plus, once he breaks through, no one will catch him.

"I think he can do whatever they want him to do, but I think he's a bona fide running back."

Archer was given No. 34 for rookie minicamp and presumably, the preseason, suggesting the Steelers view him primarily as a running back, as opposed to a wide receiver. The Steelers expect him to catch passes as well as take handoffs, but his versatility was something Haynes emphasized in 2013.

"In 2012 he was primarily a running back, and made a ton of plays and a bunch of yards as a running back," Haynes said. "Last year we wanted to make sure we utilized him and flex him out a little bit and also play him at running back so he learned two different spots. It shows his maturity and his football intelligence that he was able to do both of those.

"Any time he has the ball in his hands he has the chance to go the distance. We tried to find a bunch of different ways to get him the ball. Everyone we played knew once he touched the ball he had a chance to go all the way."

 

[antdrewjosh]

This is actually the one I was looking for where he said it was more the coaches fault.


Indeed, Archer rushed for 1,429 yards and 16 touchdowns as a junior, leading the country with 8.99 yards per carry. His rushing totals plummeted to 527 yards last season, but much of that can be attributed to the fact that Kent State played him extensively at wide receiver to showcase his versatility to NFL teams.

"I think one of the biggest mistakes we made here is flexing him out," Haynes said. "We needed to keep him at running back just because we could have gotten him more touches. He has great vision, he has great feet, he has great burst -- all the things a good running back needs to be."

That includes strength and toughness.

It is easy to fixate on Archer’s size and speed and label him a gimmick player, but that evaluation doesn't fit. He ran the fastest 40-yard dash time (4.26 seconds) at the NFL scouting combine in February, but Archer also bench-pressed 225 pounds 20 times.

That's only seven shy of the combine bench-press total for defensive tackle Daniel McCullers, the 6-7, 352-pounder the Steelers drafted in the sixth round

 

[Stryker]

Cope's a voyeur to the Dri CJC

I'm the supplier of biscuits...

Seriously though, this Archer thread is leap years ahead of last years, in terms of creating an argument and defending it. Stay on point and Kudos. That's what makes these threads fun to read!

 

[insaniti]

This is actually the one I was looking for where he said it was more the coaches fault.


Indeed, Archer rushed for 1,429 yards and 16 touchdowns as a junior, leading the country with 8.99 yards per carry. His rushing totals plummeted to 527 yards last season, but much of that can be attributed to the fact that Kent State played him extensively at wide receiver to showcase his versatility to NFL teams.

"I think one of the biggest mistakes we made here is flexing him out," Haynes said. "We needed to keep him at running back just because we could have gotten him more touches. He has great vision, he has great feet, he has great burst -- all the things a good running back needs to be."

That includes strength and toughness.

It is easy to fixate on Archer’s size and speed and label him a gimmick player, but that evaluation doesn't fit. He ran the fastest 40-yard dash time (4.26 seconds) at the NFL scouting combine in February, but Archer also bench-pressed 225 pounds 20 times.

That's only seven shy of the combine bench-press total for defensive tackle Daniel McCullers, the 6-7, 352-pounder the Steelers drafted in the sixth round

Bench press strength doesn't equate to football strength however. Antonio Brown's combine bench was 13 times. I think they should measure deadlift instead as it requires back, shoulders, legs, and even grip strength. But anyway, we've also seen several other players flash at the combine with crazy speed in shorts, only to be pedestrian when the pads are on. Throwing combine numbers out there as a measurement for success is pretty dumb. To say he isn't a gimmick player because he did this or did that at the combine takes away from everything you see on film.

He had great vision, and great burst against a bunch of guys that wouldn't sniff an NFL roster. But he showed poor vision on his one major plus (according to his game film), returning kicks. I'm all for having speed on the roster, in today's NFL you need some form of it. Hopefully he is actually putting in solid work, and that article wasn't just the usual offseason fluff piece. But he's gonna need to make a giant leap forward for me not to consider him a wasted roster spot.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Sorry Isaniti wasn't really trying to make a point with the combine numbers and whatnot. Just posted the whole article. My bad for the confusion..really just wanted to highlight the coach'statement on changing his position..should of made that clear.

 

[deljzc]

I've said since last year's marathon thread that the only way to really make Archer into a valuable commodity is to run him like a running back. And run him hard to see what you really have.

You can't be afraid of injury. You can't "limit" his touches. You run him because he can succeed and get successful plays.

For me to "buy into" the argument of drafting him, he has to be Warrick Dunn type player and show some nifty running ability between the tackles. Last year I think he got 4 runs between the tackles and had "success" on 3 of them. That's not NEARLY enough to know what he is.

If Tomlin is serious about Archer as an NFL player, while Bell is suspended, I would suggest a target of 10 rushes a game in the base offense, on 1st through 3rd downs for a series or two as the bellcow back. If you want to see what you have in a player, you need to give him chances.

Part of the problem right now is Archer's limited film. It's not a good sign that his touches dried up last season. It's not a good sign he got benched as a returned.

But this is a new year. I would rather the coaches give him chances and then we decide once and for all what his ability is at this level rather than him hanging around on the roster with 2-3 touches a game while the coaches keep saying "wait and see"....

 

[ark steel]

I would rather the coaches give him chances and then we decide once and for all what his ability is at this level rather than him hanging around on the roster with 2-3 touches a game while the coaches keep saying "wait and see"....

I can agree with this, wholeheartedly. They definitely have to be willing to give him the ball more than 2-3 times a game, and do it in such a way to give him a chance to be successful.

In the playoff game, it looks like they had him targeted 6 times. I agree it would be good to up that while Bell is suspended.

 

[keslerclan]

I hate wading into another debate about this kid but I got involved in the first 'epic' in response to some glaring errors being portrayed as fact about Dri as a player. As I have always stated, picking him at #3 was really the 'big issue' with most who didn't like the pick. It was obvious that Haley was looking for his McCluster with the pick. We had a guy who was reasonably productive as a gadget/returner/RB in LaRod Stephens-Howling (virtually the same size as Dri) who tore an ACL and was no longer an option for that role.

I agree w Del that IF you pick the guy in the 3rd round to be your McCluster, he has to be given McClusterlike opportunities. 5-6 touches a game won't be enough to see what he might be able to do for you.

The way i see it is our offense took off last year (and Ben was sacked much less) for ONE reason only...he dumped the ball off to the RB more than he has in any season he has been the QB...and it worked. Bell was a dual-threat. That's it. Nobody has ever come close to the opportunities to catch the ball out of the backfield in our offense like Bell did last year. McCluster was used similarly. Dri is limited in this capacity do to his lack of catch radius and 'hands' but IF he could make the first guy miss, he could be very dynamic. We didn't need a 3rd down dual-threat last year as Bell provided the best option on 3rd down (as well). This is where Larod would have been used too, IMO. I would expect to see Dri get these opportunities early while Bell is out early this season.

As far as special teams go, we do not block well enough for anyone to shine back there...as has been proven by our statistics over the years REGARDLESS of who was the returner. AB is really the only one who could do so much with so little to work with because he sometimes could make the first guy miss. Still, most of his returns are not noteworthy until you add the long returns in where he was able to get by the first wave of unblocked defenders.

 

[antdrewjosh]

If Dri proves to better lining up in the backfield I suggest letting Bell line up as WR and keep Dri in the back field. Bell draws Alot of attention lined up at WR. He is good at it. Plus it's a good way to have them both on the field at the same time

 

[Litos]

fortunately 5 pre season games will give the coaches enough film to see what they have in Dri

 

[SteelChip]

when should ark, DBS and I show up?

When I start runnin' low on beer.

 

[Vader]

I hate wading into another debate about this kid but I got involved in the first 'epic' in response to some glaring errors being portrayed as fact about Dri as a player. As I have always stated, picking him at #3 was really the 'big issue' with most who didn't like the pick. It was obvious that Haley was looking for his McCluster with the pick. We had a guy who was reasonably productive as a gadget/returner/RB in LaRod Stephens-Howling (virtually the same size as Dri) who tore an ACL and was no longer an option for that role.

I agree w Del that IF you pick the guy in the 3rd round to be your McCluster, he has to be given McClusterlike opportunities. 5-6 touches a game won't be enough to see what he might be able to do for you.

The way i see it is our offense took off last year (and Ben was sacked much less) for ONE reason only...he dumped the ball off to the RB more than he has in any season he has been the QB...and it worked. Bell was a dual-threat. That's it. Nobody has ever come close to the opportunities to catch the ball out of the backfield in our offense like Bell did last year. McCluster was used similarly. Dri is limited in this capacity do to his lack of catch radius and 'hands' but IF he could make the first guy miss, he could be very dynamic. We didn't need a 3rd down dual-threat last year as Bell provided the best option on 3rd down (as well). This is where Larod would have been used too, IMO. I would expect to see Dri get these opportunities early while Bell is out early this season.

As far as special teams go, we do not block well enough for anyone to shine back there...as has been proven by our statistics over the years REGARDLESS of who was the returner. AB is really the only one who could do so much with so little to work with because he sometimes could make the first guy miss. Still, most of his returns are not noteworthy until you add the long returns in where he was able to get by the first wave of unblocked defenders.

I think it is unfair to link Archer to Haley. McCluster was with Haley less than 2 seasons. McCluster was their 3rd RB or 4th if you count Charles who was hurt in 2011. In 2010 McCluster was behind Matt Cassell in rushing yards. I just don't think Haley should be linked with Archer because of McCluster.

 

[Tibs]

I think it is unfair to link Archer to Haley....I just don't think Haley should be linked with Archer because of McCluster.

Well...

When asked about hybrid running backs at the NFL Combine, Todd Haley said, "As we went through the year with Jamaal, there were times where he was split outside and I know against the San Diego Chargers, he caught a double move on one of the top corners, I believe, in the league and looked like a receiver doing it." Todd Haley, a coach coming from an offensive background, has to be excited to use players like Jamaal Charles and now Dexter McCluster. At the Combine, Haley said, "And when you see these guys, like McCluster you're talking about -- that have really good production in multiple areas, they have a unique skill set that you'd be excited to try to utilize."
http://www.arrowheadpride.com/2010/4/23/1440193/2010-nfl-draft-todd-haley-talked

When the Pittsburgh Steelers selected Dri Archer in the third round of this year's NFL draft, offensive coordinator Todd Haley's fingerprints were all over the pick.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ri-archer-into-a-versatile-star-in-pittsburgh

Only a fraction of Steelers offensive coordinator Todd Haley's system has been installed through the first two weeks of organized team activities... Even so, one critical concept has become quite clear **— a player who can line up as a running back, motion out of the backfield and set up at the slot receiver position is going to be extremely valuable...The hybrid role sounds like a typical run-of-the-mill third-down back, but it's really much more complex. Haley is looking to create favorable matchups with a versatile guy who can outrun linebackers and safeties from multiple spots on the field.... Haley used that role the past two years in Kansas City with Dexter McCluster. After toying around with McCluster as strictly a slot receiver, Haley settled on a role in the backfield for McCluster where he could run or catch it equally effective.

Haley said after a preseason game last year against Baltimore when McCluster gained 71 total yards on seven touches (six of which came on first down) that “this guy clearly in space is a hazard to the defense.” McCluster had 516 rushing and 318 receiving yards on 160 touches last year from the hybrid role.
http://triblive.com/sports/steelers...r-hybrid-offense-receiver-chris#ixzz3cVxCN5px

Haley said he’d like to see second-year player Dexter McCluster take on a role as more of a rusher in the running game. McCluster, a second-round pick, was injured often as a rookie. He had 21 catches for 209 yards and 18 rushes for 71 yards. McCluster also was a returner. "I think he can help us in both areas,” Haley said. “I think the better he is as a runner, the better he’ll be as a receiver and the other way around. I’d like if he can really help us in those areas.”
http://espn.go.com/blog/afcwest/post/_/id/27924/breaking-down-chiefs-with-todd-haley

 

[ark steel]

McCluster was a rookie in 2010. Less than 75 yards rushing , but he had 200+ receiving, 500+ KR and 200+ PR.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

The SN Dri Archer Theme Song :

 

[ark steel]

Third time is the charm?

 

[Drink IRON City]

If Dri proves to better lining up in the backfield I suggest letting Bell line up as WR and keep Dri in the back field. Bell draws Alot of attention lined up at WR. He is good at it. Plus it's a good way to have them both on the field at the same time

Great in therory, but Mr. Archer won't be able to pick up a blitzer. Pass blocking proved to be short on Dri's end.....


Salute the nation

 

[ark steel]

Great in therory, but Mr. Archer won't be able to pick up a blitzer. Pass blocking proved to be short on Dri's end.....


Salute the nation

I think the point is, does the D commit a Blitzer with Bell lined up at WR?

 

[Wingman]

The times to use archer effectively might be in a two back set with a tight end a two wides. Wides go deep and either are singled or draw safeties, Bell begins an up the middle run with either a hand off or fake could then pitch to archer in a different direction or toss to the wides if they are singled. It would eliminate defense focusing on one player and would not allow a blitzer to know he will beat archer. Still makes the defense play all the options and this would likely be a good play for 1st downs.