Coaches

[nooneuno]

I wouldn't replace Coach for any other poster. He is fun and adds lots of treads. Some of them I enjoy reading!

Is that the type of 'Coach' thread we're talking about?

I'd replace him with Hank the Tank in a heart beat

 

[slashsteel]

See, if I am going to replace Tomlin, I think that is secondary to a coach who commands respect. Even if he doesn't have the best O or D, if the players respect him. I think that is more important in this day and age than ever. And it seems Tomlin has that, which is why I would be reluctant to pull the plug.

My question on that though is it Tomlin they respect or Cowher before him or do they realize that it is a fruitless endeavor to try to undermine the coach because the Rooney's do not play that game. If it is more about the Rooney's and the way they do business, then I am fine with replacing Tomlin, because I have to agree that outside of what I perceive as the players respect for him and that he doesn't lose a team, he is replaceable.

I hope that clarifies my position a little more.

Whatever strengths he has IMO it is overshadowed by his weaknesses and inability to adjust to those weaknesses.

I won't live in my fears that the next coach could be worse.

As they also very well could get this team back on track.

Does anyone see a SB moving forward with Tomlin?

I would be interested in seeing if anyone said yes.

And if the overwhelming answer is no, then I think we know what must be done.

 

[slashsteel]

I haven't looked enough into the next crop of coaches as well as any of the under-the-radar names, but some thoughts on the guys you mentioned.

1. I really like Munchak. His demeanor is great, he has knowledge of the game, but I don't know that he is cut out to be a head coach. He did alright in Tennessee given the circumstances, but he isn't a guy that I feel can take a team to the next level. I think he is worth an interview, but wouldn't be my top choice for the Steelers.

2. If Jim Harbaugh could tone it down a tad, he is a terrific head coach. His personality may be a better fit for college, though.

3. David Shaw seems like a great fit on paper, but his offense isn't particularly imaginative. I do think he pays attention to detail, but can he adjust to the passing game of the NFL today?

4. Urban is so intriguing, but I'm not sure if his system would work in the NFL and how does he handle things if they start to go wrong? As interested as I am to see how'd he'd do in the NFL, I think he's better off staying in the college game.

I like Sean McDermott, Carolina, defensive coordinator.

I love what he has done in Carolina....

 

[jitter77]

If i had to take a flyer on a coach or would be campbell in miami. When he took over i was impressed with his deneanor / attitude. I believe he is a parcells disciple so he at least has a good background. Obviously miami sucks, but he was put in a bad spot down there so it is hard to say how he would do with a better organization / roster.
Old timers i would take gruden. He is a good x and os guy and has intensity.
Munchak would not be bad, but we may lose what he brings to the line.
I would not want to bring a college coach in usually they do not work out.
As for tomlin i do not know how much worse if could be. He seems to get the least out of the players. Only way i could see it worse is if a coach started causing locker room issues. I feel Tomlin is soft and one of the guys and the Steelers are too pampered.

 

[obxsteeler]

With Tomlin he really got the most out of the run D with the Vikings.

But I thought he was a bit of a unknown. Maybe even one sided as I think their pass D wasn't memorable.


I think you look at a NFL coordinator that is known for getting the most out of his defense or offense.

maybe''s?

Arizona's O coordinator
Denver's D coordinator
Kansas City's D Coordinator

and I could care less how old they are... Ben isn't going to be around for a long time, I am trying to squeeze out a SB win, no matter even if the coach is around too long....

Arizona';s OC is Arian's.

 

[diver]

Whatever strengths he has IMO it is overshadowed by his weaknesses and inability to adjust to those weaknesses.

I won't live in my fears that the next coach could be worse.

As they also very well could get this team back on track.

Does anyone see a SB moving forward with Tomlin?

I would be interested in seeing if anyone said yes.

And if the overwhelming answer is no, then I think we know what must be done.

Heh. Can I express how much I hate that don't live in your fears ****? Hell, I might fire him if he ever says that again. Life is all about balancing what may harm you too much and taking risks. If he truly didn't live in his fears as a coach, he go for it on 4th and 7 from his own 23 or something. The whole zone blitz concept is the balance I talk about. Take the risk with the blitz but don't get beat deep. If he didn't live in his fears, he'd blitz and play man and jam off the line. It makes no damn sense.

So anyway, I would live in my fears a bit over naming a new coach, the fear that I may get worse. To me that is balance. I would have to be damn sure. If I am, I'd make a change.

Do I see a SB with Tomlin? Yea, why not? Could I see a SB with a McDermott? Sure. If the players play to their capabilities are you telling me you absolutely would not see one under Tomlin or anyone else for that matter?

I think the above is where we really part company. I simply hold players more accountable, because after all it is they who play.

 

[obxsteeler]

The best coaches like the best players are the ones who haven't had a chance yet.

 

[mdk2]

I like Sean McDermott, Carolina, defensive coordinator.

I love what he has done in Carolina....

Another William and Mary graduate.

 

[Vader]

The last thing I am is coy. I guess I was just trying to be civil. So for me, it is a pretty important reason that they could be worse. Those types of decisions are made everyday in various professions. Will we be worse off or better if we make a change.

You always have to resort to that stupid ******' argument about winning with someone else's players. He was the coach, not Cowher. If I am fishing and use someone else's fishing pole, I guess the fish I catch I should not get credit for. It is a childish argument. Knock it off.

Maybe the franchise QB should stop playing like **** in big spots and they make the playoffs and win a game or two there.

Why does Ben get a pass because hey, he has won a couple of SBs, but Tomlin gets none for his win? Talk about contradictory.

I have no desire to defend Tomlin unless it is against stupid arguments, like he didn't motivate his players or he doesn't speak into his headset or whatever. But there is a real mindset here that they could hire anybody and it would be better. That is just a fact.

Civil? Making a point doesn't make you uncivil. You were trying to say something without actually saying it.

Seriously, you're equating coaching a team to fishing? And I won't "knock it off" because it is a valid argument. Just like when you people used it against Chucky in Tampa Bay or Switzer in Dallas. Everybody knows that Tomlin had very little control of the team early on. He changed nothing. He didn't bring in anybody. They moved BA up from within.

Nobody is giving Ben a pass. That's just your strawman for defending Tomlin. Almost everybody on here said Ben has played like ****. But then you have the Tomlin lovers that think there can't be any coaches out there any better. It's either Tomlin or bust. I get sick of that stupid argument and the ignorance behind it. Like I said not you or anyone else on here ever heard of Tomlin before the Steelers interviewed him. He's been here 9 years and has missed the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years and unless the Jets lose Sunday that will be 3 of the last 4 years with a franchise QB.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Vader who used that argument that gruden won with Dungy's players who said that. That's bull **** too..

And why don't you see any grey area? Diver has repeatedly said he would have no problem with letting Tomlin go but you always label him a Tomlin lover.

You always say Tomlin has had Ben. Like Ben has always put up big numbers in every game. Like its the the early Bulls and Mike jordan dropped 63 on the Celtics and was the obvious best player on the court.. that hasn't.always been the case with Ben.

 

[diver]

Civil? Making a point doesn't make you uncivil. You were trying to say something without actually saying it.

Seriously, you're equating coaching a team to fishing? And I won't "knock it off" because it is a valid argument. Just like when you people used it against Chucky in Tampa Bay or Switzer in Dallas. Everybody knows that Tomlin had very little control of the team early on. He changed nothing. He didn't bring in anybody. They moved BA up from within.

Nobody is giving Ben a pass. That's just your strawman for defending Tomlin. Almost everybody on here said Ben has played like ****. But then you have the Tomlin lovers that think there can't be any coaches out there any better. It's either Tomlin or bust. I get sick of that stupid argument and the ignorance behind it. Like I said not you or anyone else on here ever heard of Tomlin before the Steelers interviewed him. He's been here 9 years and has missed the playoffs 2 of the last 3 years and unless the Jets lose Sunday that will be 3 of the last 4 years with a franchise QB.

Trying to say what? That I am firmly on the fence as it pertains to firing or maintaining Tomlin? I can see both sides of the argument. I just have no patience for stupid, childish arguments like he won with someone else's players, na, na na, nah, na. I never, ever said that about Gruden. You don't know what you are talking about. Whoever is the coach of the team is who won. And I will damn well compare. If you think it is a bad comparison, quit making bad arguments.

Would you rather he lost that SB? Should he give it back?

So what if he didn't change anything. Wouldn't that be the height of arrogance, to come into something successful and make wholesale changes? See, this is where else you all are full of ****. He would be damned if he did, and he is damned that he didn't.

There is no strawman here. It seems to me Tomlin has control of and respect of the players. To me that is the most important thing today. In that scenario, if the players play better, they can win. If you don't have that control and respect, you can be a ****** football genius and not win. I know Tomlin has weaknesses, dammit. I would love to see a guy here who doesn't have those. But there is more to it than that.

 

[Vader]

Vader who used that argument that gruden won with Dungy's players who said that. That's bull **** too..

And why don't you see any grey area? Diver has repeatedly said he would have no problem with letting Tomlin go but you always label him a Tomlin lover.

You always say Tomlin has had Ben. Like Ben has always put up big numbers in every game. Like its the the early Bulls and Mike jordan dropped 63 on the Celtics and was the obvious best player on the court.. that hasn't.always been the case with Ben.

WTF are you talking about? There were many on here that said Gruden won with Dungy's players. It was one of the reason almost nobody here wanted him when Cowher left. It was a common theme.

Diver may say he has no problem letting him go but basically he makes it impossible to get rid of him. He named McDermott but he said that he has the same chance of success or failure under Tomlin so why make the change? Well hell what's the point then? He believes that they can win with the right players with Tomlin so does he really want to make a change? Nope. He's being "civil" and trying not to say what he really is saying. Just like the "reasons" crap earlier. He doesn't want Tomlin gone. Which I have no issue with. That's fine. But just say what you mean and mean what you say.

I've never said Ben put up big numbers in every game. I'm sure Montana didn't either. What's the point? I never said Ben was the greatest QB in the game. So I have no idea WTF you are talking about. I'm the guy that wanted to jettison BA and force Ben into a system. Ben needs a heavy hand and guidance. He isn't like Manning. That's why I liked Whiz as the OC. He had structure. Hell if it were up to Tomlin BA would still be here and Ben would probably be in a body cast. Everybody on here has said Ben played a **** game. But at least they've given blame elsewhere as well. The WRs were horrible. The coaching was abysmal. And the defense couldn't stop a QB who'd been in the rats system 12 days and who was bagging groceries less than two weeks ago.

The point is I know they aren't going to fire Tomlin. I don't even think of other coaches because it isn't worth my time. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't make a move if this continues. But I know they won't so I'm not worried about it. I'll still make my case and point out his shortcomings just like I do Ben's and the rest of the team.

 

[Vader]

Trying to say what? That I am firmly on the fence as it pertains to firing or maintaining Tomlin? I can see both sides of the argument. I just have no patience for stupid, childish arguments like he won with someone else's players, na, na na, nah, na. I never, ever said that about Gruden. You don't know what you are talking about. Whoever is the coach of the team is who won. And I will damn well compare. If you think it is a bad comparison, quit making bad arguments.

Would you rather he lost that SB? Should he give it back?

So what if he didn't change anything. Wouldn't that be the height of arrogance, to come into something successful and make wholesale changes? See, this is where else you all are full of ****. He would be damned if he did, and he is damned that he didn't.

There is no strawman here. It seems to me Tomlin has control of and respect of the players. To me that is the most important thing today. In that scenario, if the players play better, they can win. If you don't have that control and respect, you can be a ****** football genius and not win. I know Tomlin has weaknesses, dammit. I would love to see a guy here who doesn't have those. But there is more to it than that.

Talk about stupid arguments. Where did I say he should give it back? You ***** about stupid arguments then make them over and over again. Tomlin wasn't allowed to change anything. Years into his coaching he had to be told to let BA go... I'm sorry "retire". I've always given him credit for not screwing it up. But I'm sure 99.9% of the coaches would have done the same thing. I'm also sure the org. would make that clear to them before they hired them.

Fact is you don't want to see anyone else here. You think Tomlin can win. Fine, at least admit it. Your continual double talk is just that. There is always "more to it" and "reasons" ETC... You are really saying that unless the Steelers can find the perfect coach with a 100% guarantee that he is better you want Tomlin to stay. Since you know that isn't possible what you are really saying is Tomlin should stay. Hell just admit it.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Vader who used that argument that gruden won with Dungy's players who said that. That's bull **** too..

And why don't you see any grey area? Diver has repeatedly said he would have no problem with letting Tomlin go but you always label him a Tomlin lover.

You always say Tomlin has had Ben. Like Ben has always put up big numbers in every game. Like its the the early Bulls and Mike jordan dropped 63 on the Celtics and was the obvious best player on the court.. that hasn't.always been the case with Ben.

1.) Its hilarious because I really feel that Vadar believes that this forum has a HUGE Tomlin 'lover' sentiment. Hell, this may be the BIGGEST Anti-Tomlin forum on the net haha. Half of the topics on the first page of the forum are 'Fire Tomlin' related

2.) He says no one gives Ben a pass. Really? How many Ben threads have been created after his gawd awful performance? Let this sink in- Michael Vick had a statistically better game when he played the Ravens than Ben Roethlisberger. Should we have a thread on potential replacements for Ben?

You and me agree that this board is incredible reactionary, We also believe that everyone deserves fault: Tomlin should have gone for the FG. The ref's should have called it a TD. Ben shouldnt have played like Tommy Maddox

 

[diver]

Talk about stupid arguments. Where did I say he should give it back? You ***** about stupid arguments then make them over and over again. Tomlin wasn't allowed to change anything. Years into his coaching he had to be told to let BA go... I'm sorry "retire". I've always given him credit for not screwing it up. But I'm sure 99.9% of the coaches would have done the same thing. I'm also sure the org. would make that clear to them before they hired them.

Fact is you don't want to see anyone else here. You think Tomlin can win. Fine, at least admit it. Your continual double talk is just that. There is always "more to it" and "reasons" ETC... You are really saying that unless the Steelers can find the perfect coach with a 100% guarantee that he is better you want Tomlin to stay. Since you know that isn't possible what you are really saying is Tomlin should stay. Hell just admit it.

By saying he won with some else's players, it is almost like he has to apologize for it. It is such a completely asinine argument you have to respond in kind.

There is no perfect coach. But I do want the guarantee that he is better. If he isn't, what is the point? You don't see that? Why would you go after worse? I see this as rather simple.

 

[Stryker]

So, shouldn't the 'Gruden won the Superbowl with Dungy's players' argument be moot, since Callahan made it to that same Superbowl with 'Gruden's players'?...

 

[Vader]

By saying he won with some else's players, it is almost like he has to apologize for it. It is such a completely asinine argument you have to respond in kind.

There is no perfect coach. But I do want the guarantee that he is better. If he isn't, what is the point? You don't see that? Why would you go after worse? I see this as rather simple.

There are no guarantees in coaching. There is no guarantee Tomlin will win another SB but you are fine with that. Talk about simple.. that is nothing more simple than wanting the impossible so you can keep the known.

I'm not asking him to apologize for anything. I'm pointing out that he won a SB with players he didn't draft and coaches he didn't hire with a team that had already won a SB. Same thing happened with Switzer.

 

[antdrewjosh]

WTF are you talking about? There were many on here that said Gruden won with Dungy's players. It was one of the reason almost nobody here wanted him when Cowher left. It was a common theme.

Diver may say he has no problem letting him go but basically he makes it impossible to get rid of him. He named McDermott but he said that he has the same chance of success or failure under Tomlin so why make the change? Well hell what's the point then? He believes that they can win with the right players with Tomlin so does he really want to make a change? Nope. He's being "civil" and trying not to say what he really is saying. Just like the "reasons" crap earlier. He doesn't want Tomlin gone. Which I have no issue with. That's fine. But just say what you mean and mean what you say.

I've never said Ben put up big numbers in every game. I'm sure Montana didn't either. What's the point? I never said Ben was the greatest QB in the game. So I have no idea WTF you are talking about. I'm the guy that wanted to jettison BA and force Ben into a system. Ben needs a heavy hand and guidance. He isn't like Manning. That's why I liked Whiz as the OC. He had structure. Hell if it were up to Tomlin BA would still be here and Ben would probably be in a body cast. Everybody on here has said Ben played a **** game. But at least they've given blame elsewhere as well. The WRs were horrible. The coaching was abysmal. And the defense couldn't stop a QB who'd been in the rats system 12 days and who was bagging groceries less than two weeks ago.

The point is I know they aren't going to fire Tomlin. I don't even think of other coaches because it isn't worth my time. But that doesn't mean they shouldn't make a move if this continues. But I know they won't so I'm not worried about it. I'll still make my case and point out his shortcomings just like I do Ben's and the rest of the team.

Who are these people? Where are they?? You are the only one saying this. Who?

All diver said is of we do it's no guarantee they will be better but he always says he has no problem letting him go. He always says he wouldn't lose any sleep.

You never say he puts up big numbers every game but your comment that Tomlin has a Franchise QB implies that Ben plays up to that billing every game. Cowher lost too when Ben didn't play up to his franchise potential. Only game I can think of that was different was the Seattle Super bowl.

 

[antdrewjosh]

There are no guarantees in coaching. There is no guarantee Tomlin will win another SB but you are fine with that. Talk about simple.. that is nothing more simple than wanting the impossible so you can keep the known.

I'm not asking him to apologize for anything. I'm pointing out that he won a SB with players he didn't draft and coaches he didn't hire with a team that had already won a SB. Same thing happened with Switzer.

Well so???? Doesn't that present problem within itself? You don't know the players? You have to earn the players respect? You have to fit your system to the players or vice versa in some instances. Or you have to ego less to say what was in place work and not change anything. You have to play the game. Win the games. With stand injuries suspensions and whatever else obstacles occur. How is it so easy especially in some cases where the old coach didn't win himself.

 

[Vader]

Who are these people? Where are they?? You are the only one saying this. Who?

All diver said is of we do it's no guarantee they will be better but he always says he has no problem letting him go. He always says he wouldn't lose any sleep.

You never say he puts up big numbers every game but your comment that Tomlin has a Franchise QB implies that Ben plays up to that billing every game. Cowher lost too when Ben didn't play up to his franchise potential. Only game I can think of that was different was the Seattle Super bowl.

Driver said that he wants a "guarantee" that the coach is better. Do you understand that? How can you guarantee that? You can't. That's what he does. He puts out something that is impossible and then comes back with "might as well keep Tomlin". He doesn't want Tomlin gone. Can't you understand that. He's using an impossible measure so that he can basically say "Tomlin needs to stay".

Nobody has ever said Ben plays up to that billing every game. No QB does. It's a strawman. Many of the Tomlin lovers were talking about how unstoppable the offense was this year and that nobody wanted to play them in the playoffs. You can't come back now and say Ben isn't a franchise QB and he sucks. It's bullshit. If his WRs catch the balls thrown to them this isn't even a conversation. Remember those great WRs that Tomlin drafts so well? The ones that haven't won a single playoff game?

BTW Ben's rookie year he didn't play up to the "standard" a lot of those games and they still went 13-0 with Ben.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Driver said that he wants a "guarantee" that the coach is better. Do you understand that? How can you guarantee that? You can't. That's what he does. He puts out something that is impossible and then comes back with "might as well keep Tomlin". He doesn't want Tomlin gone. Can't you understand that. He's using an impossible measure so that he can basically say "Tomlin needs to stay".

Nobody has ever said Ben plays up to that billing every game. No QB does. It's a strawman. Many of the Tomlin lovers were talking about how unstoppable the offense was this year and that nobody wanted to play them in the playoffs. You can't come back now and say Ben isn't a franchise QB and he sucks. It's bullshit. If his WRs catch the balls thrown to them this isn't even a conversation. Remember those great WRs that Tomlin drafts so well? The ones that haven't won a single playoff game?

BTW Ben's rookie year he didn't play up to the "standard" a lot of those games and they still went 13-0 with Ben.

Where has any of us said Ben isn't a Franchise QB? We've said he doesn't always play up to that billing especially in big games recently but I don't recall many people saying he isn't one..Weaklings rookie year Vader his rookie year?? So you're saying the offense was built around Ben like it is now in his rookie year. We asked of him that year like we do now??? Talk about straw man lol

 

[Vader]

Where has any of us said Ben isn't a Franchise QB? We've said he doesn't always play up to that billing especially in big games recently but I don't recall many people saying he isn't one..Weaklings rookie year Vader his rookie year?? So you're saying the offense was built around Ben like it is now in his rookie year. We asked of him that year like we do now??? Talk about straw man lol

You used his 2nd year SB against Seattle. Then said you can't think of another time he didn't play like a FQ and they won. I gave it to you. He has often not played great and won. Especially when he had a great defense. Are you knew? You never even said anything about the offense being built around him. You do that now to save you ignorant "theory".

BTW you need to look up the definition of strawman. You asked for something. I gave it to you and you don't like it. Not a strawman.

 

[antdrewjosh]

You used his 2nd year SB against Seattle. Then said you can't think of another time he didn't play like a FQ and they won. I gave it to you. He has often not played great and won. Especially when he had a great defense. Are you knew? You never even said anything about the offense being built around him. You do that now to save you ignorant "theory".

BTW you need to look up the definition of strawman. You asked for something. I gave it to you and you don't like it. Not a strawman.

Only because it was that playoff run where we turned him loose. Before that we had not previously depended on him like that before. It's really not that hard to understand..

 

[Stainless]

LOL at Harbaugh. Drafted Kap who got a huge contract. HC's do all of that right? Anyone think Kap is worth that contract?

Had a great team as long as Gore, Bowman, Willis and Iupati were up (Singletary players). Had three good years (isn't that when you are winning with the previous coach's players?). In his fourth year when you can expect to have his full stamp on the team and BAM! has an 8-8 season. Hmm. One of those stud LB's he drafted 'retired' after 1 year.

Such a **** guy, SF couldn't wait to get rid if his stupid ***. Apparently, a good college coach, but not so much on the NFL level.

In 2011 he took over a team that had not had a winning season since 2002. He proceeded to go 13-3 losing in the conference championship game, 11-4-1 losing in the Super Bowl & 12-4 losing in the conference championship. That's a pretty good run for someone that doesn't have the chops to cut it in the NFL.

 

[slashsteel]

In 2011 he took over a team that had not had a winning season since 2002. He proceeded to go 13-3 losing in the conference championship game, 11-4-1 losing in the Super Bowl & 12-4 losing in the conference championship. That's a pretty good run for someone that doesn't have the chops to cut it in the NFL.

And he could beat his ratbird brother...