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Tomlin Deserves Credit

ark steel said:
I've said, on this board, and pretty sure within the last month, that I thought Cowher was a better coach. I don't think I have ever said otherwise. That has nothing to do with whether tomlin is a bad coach or not.

However, the fact is, until Rooney made the "group decision" that we were going to draft Ben, Cowher and Cowher's players couldn't win SB, either. That doesn't make him a bad coach.
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That's not a fact that is YOUR opinion. You should be able to tell the difference by now. It's not that hard. If you can't prove it then it's NOT a fact. Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true. Accord to Rooney he steered the conversation back to Ben. He never said he forced them or even emphasized that they take him. The rest is your imagination.

IMHO Tomlin should be fired. I don't care if he is a bad coach or not. Doesn't matter. Plenty of good coaches get fired because something isn't working. And it isn't just that they haven't won a SB in a decade. His playoff record blows the past few years. He is getting outcoached and out schemed by the likes of Chucky. The loss to Jax last year was horrible. At home to Blake freaking Bortles. It's time for a change but I know one is not coming.
 
Vader said:
That's not a fact that is YOUR opinion. You should be able to tell the difference by now. It's not that hard. If you can't prove it then it's NOT a fact. Just because you want to believe it doesn't make it true. Accord to Rooney he steered the conversation back to Ben. He never said he forced them or even emphasized that they take him. The rest is your imagination.

IMHO Tomlin should be fired. I don't care if he is a bad coach or not. Doesn't matter. Plenty of good coaches get fired because something isn't working. And it isn't just that they haven't won a SB in a decade. His playoff record blows the past few years. He is getting outcoached and out schemed by the likes of Chucky. The loss to Jax last year was horrible. At home to Blake freaking Bortles. It's time for a change but I know one is not coming.
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In meetings at my workplace, when the CEO or Project Lead steers the conversation back to a certain direction, then that is the direction we are taking. No ifs ands or buts. It's fact.
Rooney said he steered the conversation back to Ben. You even said that. Rooney was the one who wanted us to pick Ben instead of anyone else.

https://www.wtae.com/article/rooney...d-on-marino-cheerleaders-helmet-logos/7433870
Years later, in 2005, that earlier misstep influenced Rooney's draft-day strategy.

"I couldn't bear the thought of passing on another great quarterback prospect the way we had passed on Dan Marino in 1983, so I steered the conversation around to (Ben) Roethlisberger," Rooney writes in the book.
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It couldn't be any clearer. Benjamin Roethlisberger is a Steeler because Dan Rooney wanted Benjamin Roethlisberger to be a Steeler.
Remember, Cowher had dusted off Tommy Maddox and was very happy with his success and mentality. Hell, we all were. To say any different would be a lie. Hell, on this board we were talking about drafting pieces around Maddox and pushing the envelope despite his age. He played for us from 2001-2005. He's 47 now. So, yes, his age was a bit of a concern but putting better pieces around him was a discussion.

but, never forget that Benjamin Roethlisberger is a Steeler because Dan Rooney wanted Benjamin Roethlisberger to be a Steeler.
 
ark steel said:
you mean, 6 AFC Championship GAMEs, not AFC Championships as we did not go to the SB six times under Cowher.
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Yep, that's what I meant and an obvious omission of a word. Felt like we had a chance every year. Now it seems every year ends in disappointment well before that game.
 
He is getting outcoached and out schemed by the likes of Chucky.
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Chucky has the same amount of Super Bowl victories as Cowher and Tomlin. I realize the Bryant trade was boneheaded netting us Mason Rudolph which may pay dividends I sincerely hope, but Oakland has 3 first round picks next year, and if they deal Carr which has been bandied about, 4. Chucky isn't done. They were the better team the day the Tuck Rule screwed them and gave us the almighty *****s.

Point being, when you're the Steelers, even after this current era, you have a bullseye on your back week after week. It's the Steelers everyone wants to beat. That is part of the reason we as fans can't settle for second fiddle. We're the effin Steelers. But we're not living up to that anymore. Last Sunday the Raiduhs were playing for pride, and in the heat of battle, had more fight in them than we did. And Chucky had his team in position to win at the end. Boz may have made that kick if he didn't fall on his ***, we'll never know. But the Steelers shouldn't have been forced to try to tie a game they should have won.

For certain, Tomlin is slowly but surely dwindling the history of tough, working class hero the Steelers have meant to the city of Pittsburgh. For that reason alone Rooney should finish this and cut bait. I won't hold my breath.
 
Boz slip had nothing to do with the last miss. He over strided past the ball and it would have hooked badly to the left if he did not drive the ball into our linemen's ***.
 
Superman said:
In meetings at my workplace, when the CEO or Project Lead steers the conversation back to a certain direction, then that is the direction we are taking. No ifs ands or buts. It's fact.
Rooney said he steered the conversation back to Ben. You even said that. Rooney was the one who wanted us to pick Ben instead of anyone else.

https://www.wtae.com/article/rooney...d-on-marino-cheerleaders-helmet-logos/7433870


It couldn't be any clearer. Benjamin Roethlisberger is a Steeler because Dan Rooney wanted Benjamin Roethlisberger to be a Steeler.
Remember, Cowher had dusted off Tommy Maddox and was very happy with his success and mentality. Hell, we all were. To say any different would be a lie. Hell, on this board we were talking about drafting pieces around Maddox and pushing the envelope despite his age. He played for us from 2001-2005. He's 47 now. So, yes, his age was a bit of a concern but putting better pieces around him was a discussion.

but, never forget that Benjamin Roethlisberger is a Steeler because Dan Rooney wanted Benjamin Roethlisberger to be a Steeler.
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You missed the rest of that quote "After some talk”, he continued, “we came to a consensus and picked Roethlisberger" I've listened to Cowher as well and there are two sides to a story. Cowher said that they thought Ben would be gone by then and they were looking at Rivers. But he said Ben was always on their board and in the conversation. The NFL isn't like a normal business. The coach isn't a project manager. I'm not taking anything away from Rooney but the fact is that we don't even know WHO was talking about what. Maybe Colbert was talking up Andrews? Who knows? But to denigrate Cowher because of this is silly. Why more discussion if Rooney had made the decision? What are they talking about? The decision had been made right? Obviously not. So Cowher listened to the staff and the owner and they made a consensus pick. Ben wasn't forced on Cowher like many believe. It was discussed at length. I get sick of listening to people disparage Cowher over this trite issue.

Also I was on this board when Maddox threw 17 picks in 2003 and went 6-10. Everybody thought we'd draft Rivers (Until he flew up the boards). Ben was an after thought because nobody thought he'd be there. I don't remember anyone who thought Maddox was the long term answer. But most thought we had no chance of a franchise QB that year. I mean the Clowns, Giants and SD all needed QBs. What moron wouldn't draft a franchise QB from your own state? So no we all weren't very happy. That 2003 season was a disaster and most were calling for Cowher to be fired. Everything was discussed during that season. Most were just grateful that Maddox ended the Kordell experiment.
 
no one is disparaging Cowher on the issue. or, that's not how I see it.
As i said, with Maddox, we were looking to add pieces around him. True, we didn't think Ben - or Rivers - would be there when we picked. When Cleveland selected SouljaBoy, Ben was nearly guaranteed to drop to us. I do recall much talk about Cowher wanting to draft Ben Watson. I'm sure you do, too. I don't give a **** that Watson lasted until the end of Round 1. Talk at the time was to get a TE who could run block and catch. Cowher was nearly drooling over Watson. Cowher was also in love with Shawn Andrews. I remember this since Coach was here wanting us to bring in Peters as an UDFA.

Regardless, no one is ridiculing Cowher over this. You're just taking it personal.

Cowher made some **** draft picks, or was here when **** draft picks were made. Just as Tomlin.

Now if you want to say Cowher is a better Xs and Os coach than Tomlin, I sure won't disagree. Cowher was definitely more hard-nosed than Tomlin and a lot more emotional (The Chin, Spitgate, stuff-a-picture-in-a-ref-pocket-gate). Tomlin, for the most part, is more collected. Which leads to the Cool Shades nickname, etc. Whereas Cowher demanded his team to be aggressive and kick-***, Tomlin expects his team to be more cerebral (which they aren't).

They're two different styles of coaches. Yes, I'd prefer to have Cowher in his emotional heyday, but we can't live in our fears.

I'm sure back in the 80s, some of the old timers then wished Noll were still around.
 
Every coach has made some **** draft picks.
No one wanted to build around Maddox, he was like 35 years old and just came off a bad year where it looked like his arm was dead, hell looked like he was dead in Tennessee.


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Coryea said:
Every coach has made some **** draft picks.
No one wanted to build around Maddox, he was like 35 years old and just came off a bad year where it looked like his arm was dead, hell looked like he was dead in Tennessee.


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bullshit. the talk --- even here --- was we were close and could get a ring with Maddox since he was pushing the offense into more of a pass mode than run.
 
Superman said:
bullshit. the talk --- even here --- was we were close and could get a ring with Maddox since he was pushing the offense into more of a pass mode than run.
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That was during and after the 2002 season, after the 2003 season there wasn't alot off talk, his arm was dead that season.

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ark steel said:
The TEAM won a SB and playoff games. Not Ben, not Cowher's D, the Team. That amazing team, the next year, went 8-8 because it was missing one player. Why? They didn't just not win the SB, they didn't even make the playoffs. Did Cowher forget how to coach? Did those cowher players forget how to play? They won another SB, but someone had to coach them there, they were not pre-ordained to win another SB.
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A franchise quarterback like Ben does indeed make all the difference in the world. Cowher had him for 3 years. The 2 years he was healthy, Ben's record was 22-3 in the regular season and 5-1 in the playoffs. The season following his motorcycle accident when he clearly was not right physically (and probably mentally), Ben went 7-8.

This is Tomlin's 12th year with this special type of player. We all know his playoff results, especially of late...they just don't compare to what Cowher accomplished. No, he didn't forget how to coach in 2006, but he certainly maximized the talent of his franchise quarterback while he was there.

The same cannot be said for Tomlin.
 
topseed said:
A franchise quarterback like Ben does indeed make all the difference in the world. Cowher had him for 3 years. The 2 years he was healthy, Ben's record was 22-3 in the regular season and 5-1 in the playoffs. The season following his motorcycle accident when he clearly was not right physically (and probably mentally), Ben went 7-8.

This is Tomlin's 12th year with this special type of player. We all know his playoff results, especially of late...they just don't compare to what Cowher accomplished. No, he didn't forget how to coach in 2006, but he certainly maximized the talent of his franchise quarterback while he was there.

The same cannot be said for Tomlin.
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All these Cohwer vs Tomlin threads are retarded. Cohwer has been lifted to mythical status for some unknown reason.

All my posts in this thread are pointing this very thing out. It's not defending Tomlin like so many of you are assuming, it's destroying the narrative that Cohwer was the God of all coaches.

I would like to see a new coach brought in, I would NOT want Cohwer back.

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Superman said:
no one is disparaging Cowher on the issue. or, that's not how I see it.
As i said, with Maddox, we were looking to add pieces around him. True, we didn't think Ben - or Rivers - would be there when we picked. When Cleveland selected SouljaBoy, Ben was nearly guaranteed to drop to us. I do recall much talk about Cowher wanting to draft Ben Watson. I'm sure you do, too. I don't give a **** that Watson lasted until the end of Round 1. Talk at the time was to get a TE who could run block and catch. Cowher was nearly drooling over Watson. Cowher was also in love with Shawn Andrews. I remember this since Coach was here wanting us to bring in Peters as an UDFA.

Regardless, no one is ridiculing Cowher over this. You're just taking it personal.

Cowher made some **** draft picks, or was here when **** draft picks were made. Just as Tomlin.

Now if you want to say Cowher is a better Xs and Os coach than Tomlin, I sure won't disagree. Cowher was definitely more hard-nosed than Tomlin and a lot more emotional (The Chin, Spitgate, stuff-a-picture-in-a-ref-pocket-gate). Tomlin, for the most part, is more collected. Which leads to the Cool Shades nickname, etc. Whereas Cowher demanded his team to be aggressive and kick-***, Tomlin expects his team to be more cerebral (which they aren't).

They're two different styles of coaches. Yes, I'd prefer to have Cowher in his emotional heyday, but we can't live in our fears.

I'm sure back in the 80s, some of the old timers then wished Noll were still around.
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I don't take any of this personally because I wanted Cowher gone because he wouldn't get rid of Kordell. Hell I wanted Rooney to get his hands out of it because he almost adopted Kordell. For the last few years of the 1990s and early 2000's everything was about Kordell. **** Kordell. They had a defense but they blew chunks because Kordell and his assault on the worms in 3-Rivers stadium.

My issue is that Tomlin nut huggers love to criticize Cowher to make Tomlin look better. It doesn't work that way. Cowher was not against Drafting Ben. Period. That's why the discussion continued. That's why the talking wasn't over with. Rooney didn't order anybody to do anything. Period. That's a fact.

I totally disagree with your evaluation of Tomlin/ Cowher. I don't see Cowher as an X's and O's guy. But he could get the best out of his players because he was a teacher and he knew how to play the game. Tomlin isn't looking for a cerebral team. He tries to inspire them and motivate them. He wants to be the cerebral coach with his 2-DL goal line defense and 260 lbs. LBers covering 180 lbs. WRs. That's on him. That's not asking his players to think. It's asking them to do physically impossible plays. He wants to look smart but the veneer is wearing thin.

Also in 2003 Maddox was being called a popcorn armed QB on here. Most knew he wasn't a franchise QB and wanted an upgrade. You are recalling the 2002 season. In 2003 we had several threads talking about Rivers. There was one where Cowher had talked Rivers up so much that he wasn't going to fall to us at 11. There was another one about Ben where everyone was sure the clowns would draft him but how he looked like Marino in the pocket. Many people including myself gushed over him but we never thought he would be there. I even remember the draft thread where people were going to be hanging Cowher if he didn't draft him. I remember laughing at the clowns for not drafting him and how they were going to regret it.
 
Steelers12 said:
Boz slip had nothing to do with the last miss. He over strided past the ball and it would have hooked badly to the left if he did not drive the ball into our linemen's ***.
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Lol.
 
insaniti said:
All these Cohwer vs Tomlin threads are retarded. Cohwer has been lifted to mythical status for some unknown reason.

All my posts in this thread are pointing this very thing out. It's not defending Tomlin like so many of you are assuming, it's destroying the narrative that Cohwer was the God of all coaches.

I would like to see a new coach brought in, I would NOT want Cohwer back.
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By the same token, I'm not raising Cowher to "mythical status," either. He certainly had his share of flaws, and lost a few heart-wrenching playoff games as a favorite, just like Tomlin has.

I simply pointed out the facts about Ben's record with each of the two coaches he's had. Which is better, do you think?
 
Nobody comparing the two coaches thinks Cowher has to be anywhere near mythically great to a lot better than Tomlin.
 
Being just competent is a huge upgrade over Tomlin. I have said for years the mediocre Marvin Lewis is a much better coach than Tomlin. Tomlin would never have lasted 15 years in Cincy and would have no where near Lewis's record if he had stayed that long.
 
Steelers12 said:
Being just competent is a huge upgrade over Tomlin. I have said for years the mediocre Marvin Lewis is a much better coach than Tomlin. Tomlin would never have lasted 15 years in Cincy and would have no where near Lewis's record if he had stayed that long.
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Wrong.
 
Really, at least Lewis makes the playoffs with the worst run franchise in the league. Tomlin will never sniff the playoffs with the best franchise in the league once Ben leaves.

Lewis had Tomlin beat in the playoffs with a backup QB before Birthdefect gifted the Steelers a win. Tomlin is just a bad coach with great talent.
 
Steelers12 said:
Really, at least Lewis makes the playoffs with the worst run franchise in the league. Tomlin will never sniff the playoffs with the best franchise in the league once Ben leaves.

Lewis had Tomlin beat in the playoffs with a backup QB before Birthdefect gifted the Steelers a win. Tomlin is just a bad coach with great talent.
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Truth hurts
 
Tomlin and Lewis have made the playoffs the exact same number of times ,6, since 2009 sad.
 
Steelers12 said:
I have said for years the mediocre Marvin Lewis is a much better coach than Tomlin.
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Not a chance. With a better coach, Cincinnati has multiple deep playoff runs with all of the talent they've had over the years. Lewis underachieved with them because he had zero control over that locker room.
 
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