well the superbowl for sure
Is Mike Tomlin an Elite Coach?
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well the superbowl for sure
Well i thought Ben played well up to the super Bowl. Very well.
I'll answer you, yes, I think Ben has performed above the line in the playoffs since 2010. Sure, he's made mistakes, I don't expect perfection (just like I don't from Tomlin). But in most of the games we lost in the playoffs, yes, I firmly believe Ben played well enough for us to win. And yes, I saw the stats in this thread. I also, like you, watched all the games, and Ben's play was more than enough for victory. It has mostly been our defense, which has been the problem for years, that has let us down. Part of that is talent, but the biggest part is poor scheming. That falls on coaching. I will also say, without Ben, I don't think we make the playoffs most of those years. I cannot in good conscience say that about Tomlin.
You're being reasonable ... That won't be tolerated in a thread that has devolved into ... Hell, I don't know what, but it sure isn't rational discussion. Tomlin is one of the top coaches in his era. That doesn't make him "elite". Like it or not, there's only one coach, so far, from this era who is on that "elite" level ... and he got there by cheating. Now, if Tomlin were to go out and coach a team to another SB win, he'd at least stake a claim to join that "elite club". Coach the team to a SB appearance after Ben's gone and after having won 2 ... he's in the elite club. Hard to say he's there at this time and it's time that will tell where he ends up.
I can't argue with any of that. Just to get this straight: I'm not pro Tomlin, and while I'm not anti-Tomlin, I'd lean more towards the anti-Tomlin side.
Go back and read post #29 on page 2. I gave him props for what he does well, but I also listed what he needs improvement on.
He is in the top 10 current coaches, and in fact, I'd put him at about 6. Six out of 32 head coaches is upper echelon. Every coach has flaws, and every coach has critics. I loved Noll and I loved Cowher (after I got to know him). When they hired Cowher, I was like who the **** is this, but quickly started liking him. Towards the end of his tenure, say 2003, I was more than ready to see him go. I stated that we would never win a Super Bowl with him as our turtle ball head coach. Then came Ben, and bam --- super bowl. When Tomlin was hired, I was again like who the **** is this. As I mentioned in post #29, I really liked his looseness and lack of playing scared / not to lose. I also like the fact that when he came in, he kept out coordinators, especially LeBeau, but over time, his faults (again post #29) are killing me.
Well i dont think it has been consistently good enough for a QB of his caliber in the playoffs. We have run our offense thru him for the most part besides 2016 where we went to Bell as a workhorse. I dont think any coach makes the playoffs with out good QB play. Even when Cowher made it with Kordell or O'donnell he received good QB play..when they sucked we lost. Good QB play isnt just got putting up stats sometimes its just taking care of the football.
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Well, that's the point we'll just have to agree to disagree. I believe Ben has played well enough to win, you don't. You believe Tomlin has coached well enough for us to win, I don't (which exceptions on both statements).
I agree with you that you have to have good QB play to win a Super Bowl, no doubt. I would argue the vast majority of the time, we have. You seem to think Ben is the biggest problem with the team (evidenced by posting about Ben's failings in a post about Tomlin, among other posts), I think that assessment is absurd. I would argue that Ben, Brown, the line (for the most part) and Boswell are the biggest reasons we have had success, with Ben being the #1 reason. I might be dead wrong, I admit. I think our problems are on the defense, and with a coaching staff that does not consistently have the team prepared to play it's best, and gets consistently out schemed.
I agree with you that you have to have good QB play to win a Super Bowl, no doubt. I would argue the vast majority of the time, we have. You seem to think Ben is the biggest problem with the team (evidenced by posting about Ben's failings in a post about Tomlin, among other posts), I think that assessment is absurd. I would argue that Ben, Brown, the line (for the most part) and Boswell are the biggest reasons we have had success, with Ben being the #1 reason. I might be dead wrong, I admit. I think our problems are on the defense, and with a coaching staff that does not consistently have the team prepared to play it's best, and gets consistently out schemed.
"It has been well documented" means I don't have examples to support my opinions.
I'm not retreading the Tomlin/ Cowher arguments, because they are hack arguments. You want to call out his decision making and the way he looks on the sideline, that isn't coaching analysis, it's biased grandstanding.
I'm not retreading the Tomlin/ Cowher arguments, because they are hack arguments. You want to call out his decision making and the way he looks on the sideline, that isn't coaching analysis, it's biased grandstanding.
1. I cited he loses to sub 500 teams just as much as Bellicheck
2. You don't know what clock management means if you think he is poor at it
3. You don't like the outcome of a situational coaching call that gave our team a chance to win? Sour grapes.
4. He was a WR in college, we have the best WR in the league and starters from our drafts all over the league. So I guess you can't hunt and peck there.
5. I can be with you on the OC/DC. He inherited LeBeau, and smartly kept him. Transitioning to Butler was more of a company hire than his hire. OC, he inherited Arians (internal hire), got Haley (who was good at keeping Ben healthy), and an internal hire with Fitchner. I will agree that he could have had a longer hiring process and hopefully got the best option, but the Steelers FO do tend to be part of the process on these hires as well.
Are my posts hard to read? To understand? Again my post was in repsonse to someone elses post. Warriors post did you read it. He said Tomlin has wasted Ben Years..i countered that with how can he waste Bens years when Ben hasnt been consistently good himself. I then proceeded to post stats that i think prove that. I can point to instances of games won in the playoffs and Ben wasnt lights out. Because that Warriors statement meant to me. Ben had lights out performances that were wasted by Tomlin or the team however you want to word it.
Other then the defensive performance against jacksonville and the stupid decision to run a sweep on 4th and 1, the decision or not play man vs man more Brady in 2016 what coaching decisions are you pointing too that lost playoff games? I dont even consider the man to man thing a coaching blunder cause i dont think they had the horses to run it. But others do so included it. Some might also include Denver against Tebow but loading up to stop the run and forcing Tebow to make plays is sound to me..unfortunately he made them. I leave anything out i mean i must have cause you should have plenty of instances besides what i just said since you dont think he coached well.
Ray's chat today
Clef1962: The Better Coach was Bill C not Tomlin. Bill had Ben a 3-4 year before retired. Neil and Kord... We will Find out how good the team when Ben Retires...
Ray Fittipaldo: And we'll find out how good of a coach Bill Belichick is without Brady, right? You can say that about a lot of coaches. How about Chuck Noll and Terry Bradshaw. Noll had a bunch of losing seasons after Bradshaw retired. Did he turn into a bad coach all of a sudden? Or is the position just that important? I tend to think it's the latter.
Clef1962: The Better Coach was Bill C not Tomlin. Bill had Ben a 3-4 year before retired. Neil and Kord... We will Find out how good the team when Ben Retires...
Ray Fittipaldo: And we'll find out how good of a coach Bill Belichick is without Brady, right? You can say that about a lot of coaches. How about Chuck Noll and Terry Bradshaw. Noll had a bunch of losing seasons after Bradshaw retired. Did he turn into a bad coach all of a sudden? Or is the position just that important? I tend to think it's the latter.
Alright, I'm done. You're just proving my point about getting all bent of shape. You want to feel the need to be a condescending jerk, have at it. I can tell you think you're the smartest person in the room and everybody who disagrees with you is a moron. Have fun.
BTW, I want nothing more than for your "side" to be right, and for him to be an outstanding coach.
BTW, I want nothing more than for your "side" to be right, and for him to be an outstanding coach.
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If i come on off that way totally not intention..was asking cause i know i make a lot of writing mistakes. Hard to type on these little *** phones.. also because you seemed to be saying things im not saying such as Tomlin is the greatest and what not.. i was only in this thread because of Warriors post..i didnt even comment on the topic of the thread. But somehow it turned into a Antdrew thinks Tomlin is the greatest. So thats why i asked are my posts hard to understand..
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2006 was a throw away year due to Ben's motorcycle accident and a super bowl let down.
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Cope?
1 ) As much or as often? I'm interested in a %. Can you produce that? Billy's work on the Browns does not count as those were some bad teams for the most part? Side note, Cowher actually beat Billy in the playoffs, Tomlin can not.
2 ) Tomlin can call a time out whenever, I've seen the clock run several seconds before he acts. So have you! Time outs is not a Tomlin forte, its a weakness. Other times the strategic use of time out is highly questionable.
3 ) Tomlin is a gambler, even he says so, and go against the odds losing too often.
4 ) He was a Pro DB coach. Where is the DB development under Tomlin?
5 ) He hired TODD HALEY. Dick saved Tomlin. Without him, we have an average Buttler. IMO Arians with Haley OL players and skill players would be much better than Haley was.
"Bias" ... Coach is good at that. In point of fact, it's "well documented" that from Troy's big head to our picks this year, a VAST MAJORITY of his negative analysis falls on the minority players. While players like Chick are soon to be All-Pros. His statements don't rise to the level of bigotry or the dreaded "R Word". "Bias", however ... yes, I'd say that sums it up.
Chickillo
Vander
Watt
didn't notice that before...
guess the R word is a possibility with that one.................
I honestly don't think it's that. But, I do believe that like all of us, he has some built in biases. The difference, I believe, is that he allows those biases to direct his analysis on all aspects of the team without questioning them. Thus you get statements like "Troy's head" or a 7th round NT was a "wasted pick" that will bust.
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Elite, ........NO, potential to become elite.......YES.
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Is it? I mean Cowher didn't need a QB right? He can win with O'Donnell, Maddox, and Kordell right? Looks like your argument is losing steam.
1) Belly coached the Browns then. Not an apples to apples argument. Sure had trouble against them in 01 and 04 in the conference finals as a 1 loss team at home...
2) Because the Ref has to see it to call it. Here is where you learn what clock management is. Do the work man, it's a false argument...
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1RQyCuXlheBFTUgL1l0XGxkwzdrLSwf6u094zqGVSEYQ
3) He actually wins more than he loses. Much better than a coach than never goes for it until they have to, like a Marvin Lewis, or a Herm Edwards, or a Andy Reid or a Norv Turner. Would rather watch a Coach that plays the odds to give you the best chance to win, than watch a coach who is playing not to lose. You just have a problem with the results. You have to live and die by those choices, and more often than not, he's winning.
4) Not sure, He's a head coach now. Not sure why our all pro all everything DB Lake couldn't get those guys to make a play. Ike was amazing under him. Burns did well, and Sutton looked very good. Hilton, the undrafted player let go by Bellicheat, looked fantastic last year. So youth is starting to improve on the corners.
5) I can't disagree on the Haley /Ariens assessment. As I said, I agreed on this point with you. You don't think the Steelers FO had a say in the Haley signing? His dad coached for them, and family ties run deep with the Rooneys.
Good point. Let's see how Tomlin fares once Ben hangs 'em up. Ben is all Tomlin has really ever had as a QB, minus the spot backup starts due to BB's injuries and suspension.
Except Bens 2010 suspension year and he guided us to 3-1 and very well could have been 4-0..
Charlie Batch > Landry Jones