• Please be aware we've switched the forums to their own URL. (again) You'll find the new website address to be www.steelernationforum.com Thanks
  • Please clear your private messages. Your inbox is close to being full.

Bye Haley, but how can MT say the defensive staff are all safe?

I’m not talking about anyone’s ability to draft. I’m talking about coaches making ****** decisions, not game planning properly, not making in game adjustments, and not getting the most out of the players.
 
I’m not talking about anyone’s ability to draft. I’m talking about coaches making ****** decisions, not game planning properly, not making in game adjustments, and not getting the most out of the players.

All of the above are concerns. I highlighted the last simply because it touches on a question I asked earlier. Why is Olsavsky's name not mentioned among the defensive position coaches who have underwhelmed/should be let go? Who has he developed or gotten the most out of?
 
All of the above are concerns. I highlighted the last simply because it touches on a question I asked earlier. Why is Olsavsky's name not mentioned among the defensive position coaches who have underwhelmed/should be let go? Who has he developed or gotten the most out of?

I’m right with you. I would clean house if it was my call.
 
OH, and I keep seeing that Porter and Lake need to be fired for failing to develop talent, etc. Can't say I disagree. However, can someone please tell me who Olsavsky developed? And please don't say Shazier since he was basically still playing the same type of game that he played as a rookie. What ILB can you point to as Olsavsky's shining example of how to build up an ILB? If I'm not mistaken, while Williams had a very decent year, his development began under Butler. So, in my opinion, there's no reason that Olsavsky get's a pass if we're talking about defensive coaches who should be on the hot seat. Never understood the need to have both an ILB and OLB coach in the first place.

Agree 100% I don't think it's advisable to have two different voices and personalities coaching the LB corps. Butler was great at it for years. I'd prefer having a new LB coach in charge of both inside and outside backers. Doesn't seem like they're looking to making such changes, but I'd be all for it. I also think we could do better than Lake as DB coach. I loved the guy as a player, was always one of my favorites (along with Porter, btw), but I'd like to see a new voice, a new approach with our defensive backfield.

Ultimately, it should be up to the DC who he wants to work with. Perhaps Tomlin, Colbert & Rooney will pressure Butler to make some changes. Thus far it's looking like that's not gonna happen.
 
Last edited:
I’m not talking about anyone’s ability to draft. I’m talking about coaches making ****** decisions, not game planning properly, not making in game adjustments, and not getting the most out of the players.

Steelbuckeye touched on it.

Needing to get the most out of the players.
The disturbing trend is the lack of progress our guys make on defense.
 
Steelbuckeye touched on it.

Needing to get the most out of the players.
The disturbing trend is the lack of progress our guys make on defense.

Crazy thing is that when it comes to this defense (and actually the team as a whole), there seems to be a lot of two types of players on the squad: 1. Self-motivators and 2. Those who think once they've become starters/contributors, they've "arrived".
Self-motivators
Brown, Big Al, Foster, Ju Ju, Williams, Shazier, Heyward, Haden, Watt, DeCastro, Pouncey (?), Big Red
I've Arrived
Bell, Bryant, Mitchell, Burns, Davis, Dupree
There are probably a few more in each category that I haven't thought of, but what I'm trying to say is that approximately 10% of the roster can't/won't self-motivate as far as doing the work to be the best they can be. This shows up in areas such as conditioning, film work, studying your assignments, putting in the effort to expand your skill set, etc. and it manifests on the field as slow starts, drops, poor angles, not knowing your assignments, missed tackles and so forth. All that **** will catch up to you at some point (last weekend, Chicago game).

Now, that doesn't excuse the coaches. They've been remiss in finding ways to get these guys to progress. Part of coaching is having the ability to push the buttons that motivate players who can't/won't motivate themselves to be the best they can be.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: MTC
Never understood the need to have both an ILB and OLB coach in the first place.

They're two vastly different positions and having two people that know the inner workings of either is better than one that might know both.

This has been a fallacy from day one, widely pushed on this board and elsewhere (naturally, by Tomlin haters). If you've been following the team over the years, it became clear early on the Steelers have a definitive structure in place in preparing for and ultimately handling the draft. It is a collective effort jointly coordinated by Colbert and the HC (be it Cowher or Tomlin) with significant input from coordinators, position coaches and scouts. The system, developed under the legendary Bill Nunn hasn't changed one iota over the years. So you can either praise or blame the entire slew of coaches and front office personnel, depending how you feel about a particular draft pick. They identify their needs early and systematically build their draft board, argue and debate the players and draft positions up until the draft, then pick names off that board as the draft unfolds. It's been the Steelers way for decades.

Still doesn't mean that he wasn't given opportunity to make the team his toward the beginning of his career, then when it wasn't working his voice held less stock.
 
They're two vastly different positions and having two people that know the inner workings of either is better than one that might know both.

So you're saying the duo of Olsavsky and Porter has had better results than when Butler was coaching both position groups by himself? Actually, I know you wouldn't make that claim. The fact of the matter as I see it (which doesn't make me right) is that while things SHOULD work out the way you say, they haven't. So, maybe it would be best to go back to having one voice teaching, explaining and coordinating the fit of both position groups within the defense. Safety and CB are two vastly different positions, you don't have one coach for each position with those. Tackle and Center are two vastly different position groups .. only one coach there.
 
I would like to know/maybe see an article or SOMETHING that supports this generally accepted supposition that Tomlin ran the drafts early in his tenure and now Colbert is running them. It flies in the face of all logic to assume that a first-time head coach walked into the Steelers facility and was given total control of the drafts in lieu of an experienced GM. Then, when the coach has some experience under his belt, take control from him and give it to the GM. If that's the case, then the Rooneys are all senile and need to sell the team.

I doubt it's written anywhere as official. Steelers keep that stuff in house and never answer when asked, always just saying the draft is a team effort. But every team has a leader.

Here's what I believe.

It's completely logical that Tomlin would have the power. You have to remember Colbert didn't even have the label of GM until recently. That's because he wasn't a traditional GM with Cowher,

It all goes back to the Troy Edwards draft pick over Javon Kearse. Cowher flipped out over that and told the Rooneys it was him or Tom Donahoe. They chose Cowher and Donahoe was gone.

Cowher then gained pretty much all the power for the steelers. Colbert was brought over from the Lions to run the scouting department but it was clear that Cowher had the most say in draft picks and free agents. Colbert did the administrative work, coordinating all the scouting reports, etc. Kahn did the contracts. Cowher was then making the decisions based on the information.

Tomlin took over after Cowher surprisingly retired. It is safe to assume that the same set up endured. Tomlin as head coach was given the most say in the decisions. When you look at how the types of players the steelers drafted changed pretty dramatically as soon as Tomlin arrived, it backs up this theory.

Under Cowher, i would put together draft lists and they almost never drafted a guy i didn't have on my short list until the late rounds when you take shots on guys. Even in late rounds, i was rarely surprised by the names called. I found one of my old notebooks and for Aaron Smith i simply wrote "perfect 3-4 DE, this guy will be a steeler". Of course there were busts. Alonzo Jackson was a bust but he also fit exactly what the steelers looked for at 3-4 OLB. I knew he'd be on steeler boards.

This isn't about me claiming to be some draft guru. It's just stating that it was easy to pick out the exact traits the steelers wanted under Cowher, so going through prospects, it was easy to put together a short list at each position based on that criteria.

Tomlin took over and it changed immediately. I had no idea who they liked. They were picking guys i barely considered. I remember hearing Timmons would be the pick. For weeks it was reported as fact. I always thought it was a smokescreen. I looked at Timmons and he was not a fit at all for the 3-4 so even right up to the podium, i thought it was a fake. I was shocked when Timmons was the pick.

Over the next few drafts, i did catch on, now the criteria was looking for guys who fit the Tampa 2 or had a high motor. I started having a more accurate draft list although I didn't like many of the names on my list.

I believe that Jarvis Jones was kind of a last straw, I remember even on this board, many of us were against the Jarvis pick before it was made. His measurables were a joke, he had medical flags, was already 24 (i believe), and almost all his college sacks were hustle plays where the QB held the ball forever. He had a high motor!

The next year, the steelers criteria seemed to change again. More analytics, drafting by SPARQ scores. You get a guy like Shazier.

I believe the most recent shift is likely the result of Colbert being given more control of the draft after years of disappointing drafts where I think Tomlin had most of the say.

This is me on the outside reading the tea leaves. It's not some agenda against Tomlin. It just seems logical from what we can see from the outside and Colbert now holding the title of GM.
 
Ok, Tape, I see your points. Now, wasn't Colbert from Detroit? Didn't Detroit run a Tampa 2 during the time he was an executive/scout there. I'm not saying it's fact, but isn't it possible that if Cowher had more power when Colbert first came, Colbert as an experienced GM gained more power when Cowher left. "IF" that were the case, wouldn't it also be possible that Tomlin coming from a Tampa 2 background and Colbert coming from a similar background found "common purpose" when it came to drafting early. Then, as they both gained more experience in what type of players they "should" be drafting for a Steelers defense, their combined drafts became (somewhat) better. Just another possibility and nothing I'm stating as fact because I don't know.
 
I’m not talking about anyone’s ability to draft. I’m talking about coaches making ****** decisions, not game planning properly, not making in game adjustments, and not getting the most out of the players.

Agreed. Defensively, our player development is horrible and the blown assignments and missed communications are just painful, and they all suggest poor coaching.

But one thing I will say about drafting is that it’s very curious how we can be SO on the money drafting offense, and so lost drafting defense. It’s truly like night and day


Sent from my iPhone using Steeler Nation mobile app
 
I was a believer in the Steeler defense after we shut the Chiefs down, however they went in huge downward spiral after that so in hindsight not sure how impressive that was. Anyways the defense regressed and was exposed by good QBs along with being poor against the run. Stafford lit us up, but couldnt get into the EZ. The likes of Bortles, Hundley, Kizer, Brisset looked pretty good against us. I know we are not the most talented defense in the league, but looking around the league we should get more out of our players. For example how many times was Burns / Mitchell beat in the cover 2. Things like that should be corrected. Burns should get deeper or Mitchell should play closer to at least make the throw difficult. Another example is leaving Davis on Gronk one on one. Now Gronk is a freak, but he was eating Davis up and they should have switched who covers Gronk or gave Davis help. Also we did not make Bortles beat us. He made some good throws, but if we could stop a simple screen pass we probably would have won the game. I would have stacked the line, remove one of our ILBs and use a rover type player to cover backs out of the backfield or spy on Bortles. All of this stuff is highschool level coaching and I just dont understand why our coaches can not make the adjustments. There is no way that a pro coach should not be able to figure this stuff out and it is totally mind blowing how incompetent they are. The fact the the defense coaches are staying is ridiculous to me. We are in some serious need of new blood on that side of the ball.
 
So, it seems Gorman agrees that maybe the Steelers would be better off having Lake coach just the Safeties and hiring a CB coach. Not sure I totally agree, but, I'm also not against the idea if they're not going to get rid of Lake.
5. Finally, a suggestion: The Steelers have coaches who concentrate on the quarterbacks, running backs, wide receivers, tight ends, inside linebackers and outside linebackers.

Why don't they have a cornerbacks coach?

Carnell Lake coaches the secondary, which encompasses the cornerbacks and safeties. Lake played both positions for the Steelers, so he's certainly knowledgeable and qualified. And I understand it's common for NFL teams to designate one coach to handle both positions.

But that doesn't make it the best approach.

Artie Burns took a step backward this season, most notably giving up inside position on the 45-yard fourth-quarter pass to the Jaguars' Keelan Cole that set up a touchdown in the playoff loss.

The development of the former first-round pick development is imperative to the Steelers' success.

http://triblive.com/sports/columnists/kevingorman/13192453-74/kevin-gormans-take-5-five-thoughts-on-steelers-staff-changes
 
To be fair, Before Shazier went out our defense was not that bad. he was basically the big Ben on our defense. we just couldn't replace him.

Yeah, but it's the coaches fault for not having good depth at the position. Next man up and all that.
 
Ok, Tape, I see your points. Now, wasn't Colbert from Detroit? Didn't Detroit run a Tampa 2 during the time he was an executive/scout there. I'm not saying it's fact, but isn't it possible that if Cowher had more power when Colbert first came, Colbert as an experienced GM gained more power when Cowher left. "IF" that were the case, wouldn't it also be possible that Tomlin coming from a Tampa 2 background and Colbert coming from a similar background found "common purpose" when it came to drafting early. Then, as they both gained more experience in what type of players they "should" be drafting for a Steelers defense, their combined drafts became (somewhat) better. Just another possibility and nothing I'm stating as fact because I don't know.

I guess it's possible that as soon as Cowher was gone, Colbert was given most of the power, but the way Tomlin gushed over Timmons and insisted he was a 3-4 OLB makes me think he was Tomlin's guy.

My overall point with Tomlin is that he was not a very experienced defensive coach when the steelers hired him and he has not been exposed to many systems. It does not make me feel great if Tomlin is the mastermind behind the defense. I wish the staff had more experience
 
I'd like to think that Tomlin job isn't safe. But anyway I hope Tomlin isn't thinking that is shazier's injury was the reason the Defence gave up all those points. Shazier is good but he is not a Troy Polamalu. He wouldn't of changed the outcome. Plain and simple. Looks like we have to live through a few more years of floundering around with Tomlin.

Sent from my SM-J700T using Steeler Nation mobile app
 
Aside from the "younger and faster" Defensive concept, the lack of a Casey Hampton/ Joel Steed type wide body NT that can plug holes requiring 2 O linemen? This Defense will continue to struggle. The backs aren't big enough to bring down RB's or TE's and are getting beat over the top on tall WR's.
Having that bulldozer up the middle gives options and disrupts the pocket.
Bring Back The "Snack"!
 
Tomlin is delusional if he honestly thinks his defensive scheme is solid and all of the problems are execution. Tomlin inherited the #1 defense in the NFL and over the last 10 years it has slipped and regressed to the middle of the pack. The hybrid 4-2 defense that we play with 2 DL is horrific and there were numerous times that we run 2 DL on 3rd and short or on the goal line. Show me any team that goes 2 DL on the goal line. Defense is this teams biggest issue and it has been for quite a while. Still waiting for the defensive guru to do something about it.

Art Rooney is more delusional if he thinks that firing the coordinators but leaving the Head Coach will fix things. This situation is a total mess, wrong firings and wrong non-firings.:hopelessness::hopelessness::hopelessness:
 
I hope they bring Mike Mitchell back too. Who else is going to run into people without wrapping up, take bad angles, and make predictions about games not even on the schedule?

Throw in a 10-year contract extension for Dumblin.
 
With this board, is it ever on the damn players to show improvement and just play better? Heyward and Tuitt sucked on Sunday, Burns was OK but he got to stumbling around on that deep ball the announcers said Bortles put right there...if he's not bumbling around it may be picked or at least broken up,, Dupree may not be as bad as Jarvis Jones, but he is close, and he has the measurables, unlike Jones so don't go there. Its so damn childish to blame the coaches all the time. I guess if it comforts you, though.

You're right, fire the players and those who drafted them, except, or course, Mike Dumblin. He is as always absolved of any blame!
 
How does Butler keep his job? Why do we continue to sign old players to position coaches? Tomlin is not smart enough to see you need coaches that can actually teach technique No wonder the Steelers are happy to just make the play offs. Coaches do need blamed, we still can't get off the field on third down, tackling is terrible, can't stop the run. We have Burns who is a crap shot on every play ball coming his way, No aggressive play out of him at all.
 
Don't go confusing us with facts. It's widely accepted that every draft success is a Colbert success and every failure is Tomlin's. Your hypothesis that failures and successes are both the result of a collective effort? Pure hogwash driven by the media. (sarcasm ended).
The reality is that no matter how many times Colbert, Tomlin, ARII, scouts or other coaches point out that it's a collective effort, those who don't want to believe it won't.

Talking about facts, if you have been following the Steelers for a few years, you must agree that the Colbert/Cowher era resulted in much better draft picks to the Colbert/Tomlin era. I really don't know who has control over what, but how do you explain that?
 
Talking about facts, if you have been following the Steelers for a few years, you must agree that the Colbert/Cowher era resulted in much better draft picks to the Colbert/Tomlin era. I really don't know who has control over what, but how do you explain that?

They often picked lower during the Colbert Cowher era? Cowher had more control than Colbert and had a wider talent pool to choose from since very few teams ran a 3-4 during that time. (That's a big one - lack of competition for resources). There are a whole lot of things that can explain it. Including, Colbert and Tomlin don't draft well together. Were you looking for me to somehow argue that the players drafted during the Colbert/Tomlin era have met the same performance levels as Troy, Hines, Heath, et al.? Sorry to disappoint.

Well, unless you count Bell, Brown and sometimes Heyward. Looks like Ju Ju is set to join that group too. Shazier if he makes it back to full health. But, yeah, overall, kinda hard to draft Troy every year.
 
Last edited:
They often picked lower during the Colbert Cowher era? Cowher had more control than Colbert and had a wider talent pool to choose from since very few teams ran a 3-4 during that time. (That's a big one - lack of competition for resources). There are a whole lot of things that can explain it. Including, Colbert and Tomlin don't draft well together. Were you looking for me to somehow argue that the players drafted during the Colbert/Tomlin era have met the same performance levels as Troy, Hines, Heath, et al.? Sorry to disappoint.

Well, unless you count Bell, Brown and sometimes Heyward. Looks like Ju Ju is set to join that group too. Shazier if he makes it back to full health. But, yeah, overall, kinda hard to draft Troy every year.

Our offensive drafting under Tomlin and Colbert has brought us Bell, Brown, Bryant, JuJu, Pouncey, DeCastro, Gilbert, and Conner on our current roster. Historically also brought us Mendenhall, Mike Wallace, Manny Sanders, Kelvin Beachum..

Our defensive drafting has brought us Heyward, Shazier, and a bunch of guys who are either total busts or haven't yet reached whatever potential we have assigned to them as fans.

There is a CLEAR distinction between the quality of our offensive drafting and the quality of our defensive drafting. How much does that have to do with Ben stirring that drink? That's hard to say, but it's hard to argue with results here.
 
Top