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Bye Haley, but how can MT say the defensive staff are all safe?

Each and Every Defensive Coach Should be FIRED.

Tomlin should also have NOTHING to do with the defense whatsoever. If Tomlin doesn't wish to comply then he should also be fired immediately. In games that really matter the defense is PITIFUL. This is not a recent development, but has been ongoing since Tomlin has been the head coach. They simply do not put their defense in a position to win. They also have a tendency to draft SOFT players on defense. Jacksonville just plain smashed us in the mouth. For a Steeler defense this is completely unacceptable. The sack totals don't impress me. Where were the sacks when we needed them? Where were the defensive stops when we needed them? The same place where they always are under Tomlin and his defensive staff when it counts. Nowhere to be found.
 
Whomever they pick, they will have a very talented group to work with, which is a luxury, but how they utilize them is the tricky part. Keep Ben upright with a balanced attack the O will flourish. Fresh and new ideas welcomed. For the most part, Haley did a decent job, but getting along with our HOF QB will be the deciding factor. I'd think Ben will have some say.
 
The successor answer is simple, whoever Ben wants.
 
Obviously it's ok to give up 45 points in a game as long as we score 46. Very sound logic - if it was the NBA.
 
Let’s be clear. Haley was NOT fired. His contract was not renewed. Tomlin only had to say pass on keeping him, and I don’t think he ever was going to even if they won it all.

Tomlin doesn’t appear to have the sack to fire anybody.


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I honestly believe that Tomlin tried to play a vanilla D so as to not tip their hand to NE. He has even made comments to the effect that they were looking PAST Jax.

That alone should be a reason for removal, but it will not happen. The loyalty shown by Butler over the years will get him another shot. Haley was an easy move, just do not re-up.
 
Coryea said:
The defensive staff is safe because Tomlin has his finger prints all over that defense.

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That’s what i keep hearing. This is Tomlin’s defense. Butler is carrying out Tomlin’s vision.

How qualified is Tomlin as a defensive coach? He was a WR in college. Then 3 years as DB coach at Arkansa State and Univ of Cincy. Then 5 years as DB coach for Tampa Bay. Finally 1 year as Defensive Coordinator for Minnesota. He’s just not a very experienced defensive coach and almost all of his experience is with the Tampa 2.
 
tapeANaspirin2it said:
That’s what i keep hearing. This is Tomlin’s defense. Butler is carrying out Tomlin’s vision.

How qualified is Tomlin as a defensive coach? He was a WR in college. Then 3 years as DB coach at Arkansa State and Univ of Cincy. Then 5 years as DB coach for Tampa Bay. Finally 1 year as Defensive Coordinator for Minnesota. He’s just not a very experienced defensive coach and almost all of his experience is with the Tampa 2.
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Well, you can also throw in 9 years learning the 3-4 defense from LeBeau. I guess those count along with the 9 years total as defensive coach at the college and NFL level. Yep, no experience there.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
Well, you can also throw in 9 years learning the 3-4 defense from LeBeau. I guess those count along with the 9 years total as defensive coach at the college and NFL level. Yep, no experience there.
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And what do we have to show for it? Nothing, NADA, Zilch. A defense that he took over that was a top 3 defense every year that is now in the last 5 years averages 15.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
Well, you can also throw in 9 years learning the 3-4 defense from LeBeau. I guess those count along with the 9 years total as defensive coach at the college and NFL level. Yep, no experience there.
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The more experience he has the worse it looks for him. Basically he never learns from his mistakes. If it was somebody with 2 years of experience you could say well at least he will improve. Tomlin isn’t getting any better.
 
tapeANaspirin2it said:
That’s what i keep hearing. This is Tomlin’s defense. Butler is carrying out Tomlin’s vision.

How qualified is Tomlin as a defensive coach? He was a WR in college. Then 3 years as DB coach at Arkansa State and Univ of Cincy. Then 5 years as DB coach for Tampa Bay. Finally 1 year as Defensive Coordinator for Minnesota. He’s just not a very experienced defensive coach and almost all of his experience is with the Tampa 2.
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It definitely is his defense, and it sucks. No aggressiveness, we play terrified of no name QBs, we play it safe so they don't get any big plays, but then we just give them all day to find someone. They aren't rushed, or flustered, or worried.


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Turd Ferguson said:
I hate Haley but loathe Butler. He will be why the Steelers will fail again next year....fire him now Tomlin and get a whole new crew in here!


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I don't think Bulter is very good, but come one, once Shazier went out, the entire defense had major issues in our nickel and dime. No one said a thing about Butler prior to the Shazier injury.

My beef with him is not giving another safety a chance over the dismal Mitchell, but then again the head coach picks who starts and dresses. You could say Dupree needs a kick in the pants too.
 
Coach said:
I don't think Bulter is very good, but come one, once Shazier went out, the entire defense had major issues in our nickel and dime. No one said a thing about Butler prior to the Shazier injury.

My beef with him is not giving another safety a chance over the dismal Mitchell, but then again the head coach picks who starts and dresses. You could say Dupree needs a kick in the pants too.
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I've been infuriated with our lack of talent development on D and the way our defense makes average or bad QBs comfortable for years
 
Sorry but Butler deserved to be canned. Shazier didn't hold the non existent pass rush back in that playoff monstrosity.

He didn't fix the Dupree / Burns / Mitchell deficiencies.

He didn't double down on Gronk in that regular season matchup.

And that is without digging, just what comes quickly to mind.

Lulz @ letting Haley ride off, but not attempting to fix the bigger problem.
 
slashsteel said:
Sorry but Butler deserved to be canned. Shazier didn't hold the non existent pass rush back in that playoff monstrosity.

He didn't fix the Dupree / Burns / Mitchell deficiencies.

He didn't double down on Gronk in that regular season matchup.

And that is without digging, just what comes quickly to mind.

Lulz @ letting Haley ride off, but not attempting to fix the bigger problem.
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Damn right!
 
Yeah I too was hoping for some fresh blood with the defensive coaches. Maybe they still make a move or two (ie replacing Lake/Porter) or perhaps John Mitchell follows Richard Mann's lead to walk off into the sunset.

As far as everyone agreeing this is Tomlin's - and not Keith Butler's - defense, please elaborate on that, as far as posting an article or two. In my view this is Butler's defense, which is basically LeBeau's scheme with a few tweaks here and there.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
Well, you can also throw in 9 years learning the 3-4 defense from LeBeau. I guess those count along with the 9 years total as defensive coach at the college and NFL level. Yep, no experience there.
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And you can throw out those 9 years because Tomlin has changed it all. I don’t know if he understands it or not but it’s pretty clear he doesn’t like it. It seemed earlier in his tenure, he did not understand the 3-4 becuase most of the guys he drafted were not a fit. They were Tampa 2 guys.

Ziggy was a pure Sapp type gap shooter, perfectly suited for a Tampa 2 and not at all for a 3-4. Same with Timmons. Tomlin drafted him as an OLB and he had no shot to play that in the 3-4. It took Timmons like 4 years to become a decent ILB.

Now it seems Colbert has been given more control of the draft because the types of players they draft has changed over the last couple seasons. They have drafted perfect fits for the 3-4 like Dupree and Watt and Hargrave and Tuitt but now Tomlin appears to be changing it up.

Dupree is hard to judge. I think he can be a good pass rusher but they have him dropping in coverage so much now. That’s not his game.
 
Tibs said:
Yeah I too was hoping for some fresh blood with the defensive coaches. Maybe they still make a move or two (ie replacing Lake/Porter) or perhaps John Mitchell follows Richard Mann's lead to walk off into the sunset.

As far as everyone agreeing this is Tomlin's - and not Keith Butler's - defense, please elaborate on that, as far as posting an article or two. In my view this is Butler's defense, which is basically LeBeau's scheme with a few tweaks here and there.
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I think it is mostly Butler's monkey ****. He is flinging that **** hoping something sticks.And it has done nothing but stank. And this D will be back for the players to continue to look confused and run around like a chicken with their head cut off. Incredible.

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Our defensive back field blows. Arty Cant tackle, and has coverage fails. Mitchell is AWOL. Haden was grabbed from Clevelands scraps thank god. And Davis is OK.
2 of our last 3 OLB first round picks are busts. They wouldn't play Deebo, continue to let bud run around like an idiot. Ill leave watt alone its his rookie year.
We have no pressure on the line. Cam was either tired, or following a game plan that kept him from doing well. Tuit has been a ghost. Same with Hargrave.
Inside, I think V will is ok.. ANd doing well for a 6th round pick. Shazier loss, hurt, without question.

But vs. Jax . Specifically. We didn't impose our will, we reacted to everything they did. And did that poorly. Jacksonville has our old defense from 2004.

I say Tomlin has his fingerprints in this D. (just my opinion). Based solely on, these two facts. 1. Butler is still employed 2. I don't know how butler can be here for all those years before he was DC, and NOT know what
type players to get via draft or FA. I submit uncle Jarvis, bud Dupree, and sorry but Hargrave too.

ps. I don't regard tomlin having his fingers on the D as bad for it being Tomlin. I regard it bad, because the 3/4 D (as far as I know) requires specific personell types.. and I don't think Tomlin is familiar enough. I think he has his Tampa 2 personell in mind. Just my perception I guess.
 
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tapeANaspirin2it said:
And you can throw out those 9 years because Tomlin has changed it all. I don’t know if he understands it or not but it’s pretty clear he doesn’t like it. It seemed earlier in his tenure, he did not understand the 3-4 becuase most of the guys he drafted were not a fit. They were Tampa 2 guys.

Ziggy was a pure Sapp type gap shooter, perfectly suited for a Tampa 2 and not at all for a 3-4. Same with Timmons. Tomlin drafted him as an OLB and he had no shot to play that in the 3-4. It took Timmons like 4 years to become a decent ILB.

Now it seems Colbert has been given more control of the draft because the types of players they draft has changed over the last couple seasons. They have drafted perfect fits for the 3-4 like Dupree and Watt and Hargrave and Tuitt but now Tomlin appears to be changing it up.

Dupree is hard to judge. I think he can be a good pass rusher but they have him dropping in coverage so much now. That’s not his game.
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I would like to know/maybe see an article or SOMETHING that supports this generally accepted supposition that Tomlin ran the drafts early in his tenure and now Colbert is running them. It flies in the face of all logic to assume that a first-time head coach walked into the Steelers facility and was given total control of the drafts in lieu of an experienced GM. Then, when the coach has some experience under his belt, take control from him and give it to the GM. If that's the case, then the Rooneys are all senile and need to sell the team.
 
OH, and I keep seeing that Porter and Lake need to be fired for failing to develop talent, etc. Can't say I disagree. However, can someone please tell me who Olsavsky developed? And please don't say Shazier since he was basically still playing the same type of game that he played as a rookie. What ILB can you point to as Olsavsky's shining example of how to build up an ILB? If I'm not mistaken, while Williams had a very decent year, his development began under Butler. So, in my opinion, there's no reason that Olsavsky get's a pass if we're talking about defensive coaches who should be on the hot seat. Never understood the need to have both an ILB and OLB coach in the first place.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
I would like to know/maybe see an article or SOMETHING that supports this generally accepted supposition that Tomlin ran the drafts early in his tenure and now Colbert is running them. It flies in the face of all logic to assume that a first-time head coach walked into the Steelers facility and was given total control of the drafts in lieu of an experienced GM. Then, when the coach has some experience under his belt, take control from him and give it to the GM. If that's the case, then the Rooneys are all senile and need to sell the team.
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This has been a fallacy from day one, widely pushed on this board and elsewhere (naturally, by Tomlin haters). If you've been following the team over the years, it became clear early on the Steelers have a definitive structure in place in preparing for and ultimately handling the draft. It is a collective effort jointly coordinated by Colbert and the HC (be it Cowher or Tomlin) with significant input from coordinators, position coaches and scouts. The system, developed under the legendary Bill Nunn hasn't changed one iota over the years. So you can either praise or blame the entire slew of coaches and front office personnel, depending how you feel about a particular draft pick. They identify their needs early and systematically build their draft board, argue and debate the players and draft positions up until the draft, then pick names off that board as the draft unfolds. It's been the Steelers way for decades.
 
Tibs said:
This has been a fallacy from day one, widely pushed on this board and elsewhere (naturally, by Tomlin haters). If you've been following the team over the years, it became clear early on the Steelers have a definitive structure in place in preparing for and ultimately handling the draft. It is a collective effort jointly coordinated by Colbert and the HC (be it Cowher or Tomlin) with significant input from coordinators, position coaches and scouts. The system, developed under the legendary Bill Nunn hasn't changed one iota over the years. So you can either praise or blame the entire slew of coaches and front office personnel, depending how you feel about a particular draft pick. They identify their needs early and systematically build their draft board, argue and debate the players and draft positions up until the draft, then pick names off that board as the draft unfolds. It's been the Steelers way for decades.
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Don't go confusing us with facts. It's widely accepted that every draft success is a Colbert success and every failure is Tomlin's. Your hypothesis that failures and successes are both the result of a collective effort? Pure hogwash driven by the media. (sarcasm ended).
The reality is that no matter how many times Colbert, Tomlin, ARII, scouts or other coaches point out that it's a collective effort, those who don't want to believe it won't.
 
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