According To PG. Tomlin micromanaged Defense. & Changes are happening from Rooney

[nitsuj1225]

Haley wasnt let go because of his scheme IMO he was let go because of his abrasive style of coaching our franchise QB. His offense was wildly successful. Produced for the QB RBs and WRs. Was there brainfarts sometimes of course. But the steelers have already said they arent changing the whole offensive playbook..scheme wasnt the issue personalities were.

Ive said time and time again. I was pissed about 4th down play calls either sneak or run bell between the tackles on both plays. Ive always been a believer if if you cant get one yard as an offense you dont deserve to win.

Ben wasnt held back like you say. Thats bullshit. He has put up record nunbers in this offense since Haley came. Issue wasnt scheme. He didnt play well to start the season. Thats on him.

Foles had a running game and the coaches used RPOs to help him a scheme he ran before and had success with under Chip Kelly. It wasnt some genius coaching.. if the Oline didnt establish the run would Foles have been as effective. Again execution.

Now ben was stuck in a terrible offense lol.

When was that ever mentioned? Under-performed, yes...terrible, obviously not. Personalities were the issue with Ben and Haley because Ben didn't like Haley's scheme and how he called the offense.

You are completely glossing over the fact I brought up the main reason for Ben's success under Haley...when he ran the no huddle. The no huddle was barely run to start the season...Ben struggled. We miraculously were good at scoring before the end of halves...oh look, that's when we ran the no huddle. We struggled early against the Jags in the playoffs...huddle offense and Haley calling the plays. Ben leads the team to 6 TDs, the majority of the time in the no huddle. Do you even watch the games or are you just basing your observations from the stats sheet??

There's also dozens of ways a team can pick up 1 yard...everyone here and yourself included say the toss is at the bottom of the list. Therefore, even you agree that in that instance, scheme was more important than execution. QB sneak, we get the 1 yard...100% a result of scheme.

 

[antdrewjosh]

When was that ever mentioned? Under-performed, yes...terrible, obviously not. Personalities were the issue with Ben and Haley because Ben didn't like Haley's scheme and how he called the offense.

You are completely glossing over the fact I brought up the main reason for Ben's success under Haley...when he ran the no huddle. The no huddle was barely run to start the season...Ben struggled. We miraculously were good at scoring before the end of halves...oh look, that's when we ran the no huddle. We struggled early against the Jags in the playoffs...huddle offense and Haley calling the plays. Ben leads the team to 6 TDs, the majority of the time in the no huddle. Do you even watch the games or are you just basing your observations from the stats sheet??

There's also dozens of ways a team can pick up 1 yard...everyone here and yourself included say the toss is at the bottom of the list. Therefore, even you agree that in that instance, scheme was more important than execution. QB sneak, we get the 1 yard...100% a result of scheme.

We also had a RB who missed training camp and wasnt in shape. A rookie WR who missed time in camp with various injuries. A WR who missed a whole year. A TE who we just picked up and couldnt stay healthy. And when did Ben become a QB who can only execute in the no huddle?? Please i havent missed a game in 10 years..

And saying we should of ran a between the tackle play or sneak doesnt 100% guarantee success. Still could of been stuffed. But i would of liked the call. Doesnt mean it was gone work..

 

[ark steel]

Would you rather be 4th in this stat and have 8 less TD's over the season? No one would.

A QB sneak is a waaaaay higher probability than that toss bullshit, but I don't think it is 100% From this site, it looks like it is about 82%, or roughly 20% higher probability than all other plays. I'm surprised it is not higher.

Probably 60% higher than that toss play!

http://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down

 

[antdrewjosh]

Yes sorry scheme does matter. It is a combination of that and execution and putting the players in a position to succeed. If your scheme doesn't fit your talent, there will be issues. Like getting run on, or passed on. etc. They changed the scheme and beat the pats, if that isn't evidence nothing is. BTW they did beat them, it took refs to change the outcome.

I didnt say scheme doesnt matter i just said execution is more important.. the scheme can put you in perfect position. Still have to execute.

 

[ark steel]

A QB sneak is a waaaaay higher probability than that toss bullshit, but I don't think it is 100% From this site, it looks like it is about 82%, or roughly 20% higher probability than all other plays. I'm surprised it is not higher.

Probably 60% higher than that toss play!

http://sports.sites.yale.edu/success-short-yardage-play-types-fourth-down

I think those were 4th downs in that article.

Add on - ESPN had an article that showed a 3rd/4th and short. I closed the link. you can google it. Had newer data too, i think.

 

[nitsuj1225]

I didnt say scheme doesnt matter i just said execution is more important.. the scheme can put you in perfect position. Still have to execute.

I don't think anyone is saying the players don't still need to execute. Look at the trick play in the SB, great play, poor execution on Brady's part.

In that case you can create the best scheme ever created and the players still need to execute it. On the contrary, you could have the best players in the league and come up short because of poor scheme and playcalling. I am arguing, as are many others here, that we are much closer to the latter.

 

[antdrewjosh]

I don't think anyone is saying the players don't still need to execute. Look at the trick play in the SB, great play, poor execution on Brady's part.

In that case you can create the best scheme ever created and the players still need to execute it. On the contrary, you could have the best players in the league and come up short because of poor scheme and playcalling. I am arguing, as are many others here, that we are much closer to the latter.

And i dont see that imo there were way more plays failed by lack of execution( drops missed tackles missed blocks etc etc) then what the **** was that play call.

 

[Lrdt]

This ant guy is either an imbecile or Tomlin's mom. Either way he is too dumb to discern what everyone can see and that Rooney publicly addressed

 

[Stryker]

I don't think anyone is saying the players don't still need to execute. Look at the trick play in the SB, great play, poor execution on Brady's part.

In that case you can create the best scheme ever created and the players still need to execute it. On the contrary, you could have the best players in the league and come up short because of poor scheme and playcalling. I am arguing, as are many others here, that we are much closer to the latter.

Hey Nitsuj, What was better for you in the superbowl?

Hoping the Pats would win, or watching the Eagles win?

 

[antdrewjosh]

This ant guy is either an imbecile or Tomlin's mom. Either way he is too dumb to discern what everyone can see and that Rooney publicly addressed

No one is defending Tomlin here he can go **** himself with rest of his team as far im concerned

 

[Stryker]

This ant guy is either an imbecile or Tomlin's mom. Either way he is too dumb to discern what everyone can see and that Rooney publicly addressed

Very astute making assumptions about members on your second post. Something tells me we've read your bunk before, because it smells familiar...

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

really.. So you don't think he is as bad as poster seem to try to make him out to be?

 

[slashsteel]

sorry not buying execution is more important than scheme. Scheme is built around their talents, and without the proper scheme, they will have a hard time executing plays. They both go hand in hand. I would give them a 50/50 on importance. Like a left and right glove and together they work out fine.

Some under value coaches as well. But you see the difference experience can bring.

 

[antdrewjosh]

sorry not buying execution is more important than scheme. Scheme is built around their talents, and without the proper scheme, they will have a hard time executing plays. They both go hand in hand. I would give them a 50/50 on importance. Like a left and right glove and together they work out fine.

Some under value coaches as well. But you see the difference experience can bring.

I will give you one example of execution over scheme.. what you have is an alley here an alley etc etc. Teams knew the packers were going to run the sweep and couldnt stop it. Whenever the 90s cowboys needed a 3rd down conversion they ran a slant with Irvin. You knew it was coming and couldnt stop it. You guys are talking like Haley's scheme sucked totally or if the 2-4-5 sucked even when everything is done right. If Heyward and Tuitt draw a double team that means someone is one on one right. Then he has to beat his man. The scheme got exactly what it wanted. Now beat your man..

 

[antdrewjosh]

really.. So you don't think he is as bad as poster seem to try to make him out to be?

Im a bad poster because i choose to judge what i see vs what i can speculate on. I put more onus what i can see.. drop ball i dont blame the WR coach. Overthrown ball i dont say what the **** was the QB coach doing all week..team gives up an opening drive TD i dont automatically say oh they werent prepared.

 

[antdrewjosh]

I would like them to see them try the 3-3-5 not because i think the 2-4-5 is useless simply because i think Hargrave needs to play more.

 

[nitsuj1225]

And i dont see that imo there were way more plays failed by lack of execution( drops missed tackles missed blocks etc etc) then what the **** was that play call.

Agree to disagree then because I could come up with at least 10 what the **** was that call and scheme off the top of my head as opposed to a few bad turnovers by the offense that would have made the difference in our losses.

I do think we could agree no matter what scheme was run on D, Mitchell would still **** up.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Agree to disagree then because I could come up with at least 10 what the **** was that call and scheme off the top of my head as opposed to a few bad turnovers by the offense that would have made the difference in our losses.

I do think we could agree no matter what scheme was run on D, Mitchell would still **** up.

List them please.. take out the jacksonville game because we all agree there.

 

[nitsuj1225]

Hey Nitsuj, What was better for you in the superbowl?

Hoping the Pats would win, or watching the Eagles win?

Is this even a question? Of course the Eagles winning. I actually liked most of the players and coaches on the team, it's the fans that I can't stand. I will say they handled the win better than I thought though.

 

[nitsuj1225]

List them please.. take out the jacksonville game because we all agree there.

Kinda taking my thunder by not allowing me to use the Jags game...that's about 3 or 4 right there. Nice to see you finally agree coaching made the difference in a game.

In no particular order:

-The clusterfuck at the end of the half early in the season where they let time expire despite being at the 5 yard line. That was coaching...it's their job to manage the clock and it cost them points.
-Any bubble screen we ever ran because they never worked. How many bubble screens did you see from either team in the SB? That would be a big fat zero.
-Taking QB sneak out of the playbook despite having trouble picking up 3rd or 4th and short.
-Empty back sets on 3rd and short or near the goaline.
-Pounding the ball down the field on the ground then immediately going empty back set constantly...no strategic use of play action.
-Lack of any "trick" plays in the playbook...we used to see one or two a game and even in the SB but can't even think of any under Haley.
-Like Coryea mentions constantly, running 2 DL sets against running situations and against running teams.
-Running zone against the Pats in every game before this season...not sure why it took 4-5 games of fail to realize this was the right scheme. I give the coaches props for this seasons scheme against the Pats. I don't know how you can't see that scheme made a huge difference in that game as well.
-Not making adjustments when Shazier went down and expecting the defense to perform the same with Spence in his spot. It'd be one thing if we changed scheme and still couldn't stop anyone but nothing changed. Shazier didn't play the Pats game and we all agree that was a great scheme and a good showing from the D but the same problems came back to bite them during the Jags game...same guys on the field, the only thing to change was the scheme.
-The whole Harrison situation...can't tell me he would've been any worse than Dupree. He should have at least been in rotation from game 1 and that situation would have never happened.
-Saving the no-huddle until only dire situations and not running it the majority of the time when it was obvious, at least to me, the offense performed infinitely better running it.
-Coming out throwing against the Jags in the first game when they have some of the best corners in the league and everyone knows their weakness was against the run. Yes Ben had a **** game and a couple of the picks were just unlucky but scheme COULD have prevented that if they focused on running the ball more from the start. Why attack the oppositions strength??
-The clusterfuck at the end of the Pats game. This was both poor coaching and poor execution because they had no idea what play to run and the play they ran, Ben executed poorly. Again, this is just expecting Ben to make a play out of nothing and not having any kind of plan or great play to call in that situation (ala the Eagles trick play that got them a wide open TD from the same spot on the field).

 

[antdrewjosh]

Kinda taking my thunder by not allowing me to use the Jags game...that's about 3 or 4 right there. Nice to see you finally agree coaching made the difference in a game.

I will go thru this list in a second but ive been saying during and since the game and all thru this thread that i hated those plays. Both 4th down calls and the onside kick. So where does this "finally" come from

 

[Coryea]

I will give you one example of execution over scheme.. what you have is an alley here an alley etc etc. Teams knew the packers were going to run the sweep and couldnt stop it. Whenever the 90s cowboys needed a 3rd down conversion they ran a slant with Irvin. You knew it was coming and couldnt stop it. You guys are talking like Haley's scheme sucked totally or if the 2-4-5 sucked even when everything is done right. If Heyward and Tuitt draw a double team that means someone is one on one right. Then he has to beat his man. The scheme got exactly what it wanted. Now beat your man..

Not when teams would leave a TE or RB in to block, now you have 6 blocking 3. You send 4 they all can't be doubled unless the O wants to have two passing options

Sent from my XT1585 using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[antdrewjosh]

Kinda taking my thunder by not allowing me to use the Jags game...that's about 3 or 4 right there. Nice to see you finally agree coaching made the difference in a game.

In no particular order:

-The clusterfuck at the end of the half early in the season where they let time expire despite being at the 5 yard line. That was coaching...it's their job to manage the clock and it cost them points.
-Any bubble screen we ever ran because they never worked. How many bubble screens did you see from either team in the SB? That would be a big fat zero.
-Taking QB sneak out of the playbook despite having trouble picking up 3rd or 4th and short.
-Empty back sets on 3rd and short or near the goaline.
-Pounding the ball down the field on the ground then immediately going empty back set constantly...no strategic use of play action.
-Lack of any "trick" plays in the playbook...we used to see one or two a game and even in the SB but can't even think of any under Haley.
-Like Coryea mentions constantly, running 2 DL sets against running situations and against running teams.
-Running zone against the Pats in every game before this season...not sure why it took 4-5 games of fail to realize this was the right scheme. I give the coaches props for this seasons scheme against the Pats. I don't know how you can't see that scheme made a huge difference in that game as well.
-Not making adjustments when Shazier went down and expecting the defense to perform the same with Spence in his spot. It'd be one thing if we changed scheme and still couldn't stop anyone but nothing changed. Shazier didn't play the Pats game and we all agree that was a great scheme and a good showing from the D but the same problems came back to bite them during the Jags game...same guys on the field, the only thing to change was the scheme.
-The whole Harrison situation...can't tell me he would've been any worse than Dupree. He should have at least been in rotation from game 1 and that situation would have never happened.
-Saving the no-huddle until only dire situations and not running it the majority of the time when it was obvious, at least to me, the offense performed infinitely better running it.
-Coming out throwing against the Jags in the first game when they have some of the best corners in the league and everyone knows their weakness was against the run. Yes Ben had a **** game and a couple of the picks were just unlucky but scheme COULD have prevented that if they focused on running the ball more from the start. Why attack the oppositions strength??
-The clusterfuck at the end of the Pats game. This was both poor coaching and poor execution because they had no idea what play to run and the play they ran, Ben executed poorly. Again, this is just expecting Ben to make a play out of nothing and not having any kind of plan or great play to call in that situation (ala the Eagles trick play that got them a wide open TD from the same spot on the field).

Not sure what game you are referring to..but if you cant be more specific neither will I

Ahh the bubble screens that NEVER work. We both know thats hyperbole. There are plenty of instances where they worked. But of course the instances where they didnt stand out. And im willing to bet that most of them came down to a missed block. Its not like one was called to pick up a much needed first down on a 3rd and long in a crucial situation. That would be a WTF.

I do agree about the lack of a QB sneak. I understand the justification but i dont like it. And if you are not going to use it. You damn better be willing to line up with a FB and use Bell between the tackles and get a inch or two or a yard if needed. I whole heartedly agree here. I hate it. Dont do play action either unless youve already established you can get a it done by running the ball. Power football.

Alot of this is Ben. We run alot of shotgun we dont get under center alot. Because Ben prefers shotgun. One reason under Fichtner we are looking to use the pistol. So that we regain some semblance of PA.

Trick plays meh really dont have an answer for that we run them whoopee we dont no big deal. Not sure thats a knock

We run 2-4-5 on against 3 WR sets. Which is damn near base for every offense. If we run base they are going to throw. Then we will be bitching about why is this LB covering this WR or Pass catching TE and why were in zone cause we sure as hell not going to be in man. So the 2-4-5 is it. Like i said with Shazier in the game we were better not dominant see chicago and first Jacksonville game. But were werent terrible either. And if Tuitt and Heyward get doubled. That means our other "playmakers are one on one. Somebody has to win their matchup.

The Patriots and zone... again everyone says playing zone was dumb as hell while quietly leaving out we had nobody to play man to man. Pressure beats brady anyway IMO. Dont matter as much what you are doing on the backend..man to man no pressure brady wins still..zone no pressure he wins.. whatever you do on the back end better be combined with PRESSURE. We didnt get any we lost. We were better this year combining the two. Should have won but we were buttfucked..

Shazier was huge..mental leader speed the emotional toll..just a huge loss. But also remember we not only lost him we lost his back up TM. He was next man up. But he was hurt and couldnt play ILB bum shoulder. So now we are down to pulling Spence off the street. So we need to change everything to hide him?? Thats hurts everyone. The eagles didnt make some major change for Foles they ran the ball more and used RPOs something Foles ran alot under Chip Kelly.. They didnt invent the wheel for Foles.

The Harrison just sucked all around not going to get into too much like Rooney said i guess there is fault all around..

I touched on the no huddle some already we had a RB miss camp WR coming back from a year off another was a rookie and missed time during camp. A TE who we picked up late and couldnt stay healthy. Im not a no huddle is the magic elixir guy. We run it great we dont great. Shouldnt be a issue. Ben should able to make plays outside of just going no huddle IMO..

Didnt watch that game again with the eye on looking at why we threw against the jags..just watched to watch because we were playing them again..my guess and again my guess is the Jaguars are leaving their corners in man on a island, geared up to stop the run. We took the challenge as we should with the QB and WRs we have. No different then when we played Denver and their great pass defense. We tore them apart..now if we had came out and ran the ball with no success into 8 man fronts would you have been ok with that??

Ive went over this before here. So let me ask you this as someone who thinks we should be in no huddle WAY MORE why is it ok that with at least 22 seconds the guy you wanting to run no huddle and call his own plays couldnt get a better call then a fake spike and needed help from the sidelines to get a play call in. You say it yourself he is at his best in the no huddle. So what was the issue? With 22 seconds the call comes in to run a play. What was so different then if we were in a no huddle situation and he was calling his own plays?? Yes they could of given him two plays. I get that. But for some one who calls his owm plays and for some one you want to be calling his own plays more..why couldnt he get a better play in???

 

[antdrewjosh]

Not when teams would leave a TE or RB in to block, now you have 6 blocking 3. You send 4 they all can't be doubled unless the O wants to have two passing options

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Are you talking Running plays or pass plays

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

Im a bad poster because i choose to judge what i see vs what i can speculate on. I put more onus what i can see.. drop ball i dont blame the WR coach. Overthrown ball i dont say what the **** was the QB coach doing all week..team gives up an opening drive TD i dont automatically say oh they werent prepared.

yeah? no **** you are so anti what anyone else says,,, youre exhausting to read