2015 defense vs. 2016 defense

[Steelers1]

When you have poor OLBs and a poor secondary the worst thing you can do is to sit back and give the offense time to pick them apart. You can devise exotic blitzes like overloading a side, delayed safety blitzes, etc. but the Tomlin stamp of soft coverage 2 is taking hold. It may work great against the Cousins and Dalton's of the world but the good QBs will tear it up and that is a suicide mission in the making.Last year we got pressure through blitz design not winning one on one pass rushes, this year we are afraid to do it although the secondary is arguably better, read minus Tomlin love child Antwon Blake.

 

[antdrewjosh]

When you have poor OLBs and a poor secondary the worst thing you can do is to sit back and give the offense time to pick them apart. You can devise exotic blitzes like overloading a side, delayed safety blitzes, etc. but the Tomlin stamp of soft coverage 2 is taking hold. It may work great against the Cousins and Dalton's of the world but the good QBs will tear it up and that is a suicide mission in the making.Last year we got pressure through blitz design not winning one on one pass rushes, this year we are afraid to do it although the secondary is arguably better, read minus Tomlin love child Antwon Blake.

Haha haha hello Clete

 

[antdrewjosh]

It’s important to keep in mind that Wentz completed just four passes that traveled eight yards past the line of scrimmage. As a whole, 10 of Wentz’s 23 completions didn’t travel past the line of scrimmage.

Overall, I felt that the secondary played well despite the injury to Robert Golden, forcing Sean Davis to safety. Overall, Artie Burns was okay playing a major role at corner, while William Gay and Ross Cockrell were solid once again.

Granted, Burns and Davis were both dreadful on Sproles’ long touchdown, but overall I felt the performance by the secondary was solid. You can get lost in the 300+ yards that Wentz put up, but a lot of it was short dump-offs. A better pass rush will largely help the defense as a whole.


http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN Home Page/2016/09/steelers-vs-eagles-positional-grades-2/


Thoughts everyone???

 

[Coryea]

Antdrewjosh it was in the first few lines of the post you originally quoted of mine, about Tomlin getting more involved.

I'm sure lebeau and Butler have input, if not why have them in staff, but this defense is so far opposite of what we're used to seeing. Our secondary sucked *** in the early 2000's, but we didn't sit back in coverage, we blitzed the hell out of the qb's.

This defense worked week 1 because it was a total shocker and our offense got up and made wash one dimensional, week 2 the weather was a big factor.
Week 3, going against a team that doesn't like throwing deep and doesn't throw deep, but live the short stuff, giving them what they want is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

 

[ark steel]

It's not bad as a stratgery if you actually make the tackles...execution is key, I would think.

 

[Coach]

I don't know if that's statistically true. I've studied a lot of our draft and it's not that much different between the three distinct eras: 1) Donahoe/Cowher 2) Colbert/Cowher and 3) Colbert/Tomlin

There is no doubt that Tomlin's hits in the draft have been on the offensive side of the ball. And his "hits" on the defense have been fairly conservative positions: D-line and ILB. Not quite the splash positions like pass rusher or elite secondary players.

If there is a concerning theme with the Colbert/Tomlin era it's the lack of late round gems, although where he lacks quantity as compared to previous regimes, he has quality: A. Brown is the best late round drafted player arguably in Steelers history.

The reliance of Colbert/Tomlin on their first three round players to produces puts a lot of pressure on the last three years (and it's defense-heavy theme) to produce and fix that side of the ball before Roethlisberger's career ends. Lord knows paying for all the offensive talent collected in 2010-2013 is going to cost most of the cap so we can't supplement 1st/2nd/3rd round misses over these last few drafts with free agents.

We just have to wait and see what happens.

Deljzc,

It's all Ben, without him the offense is terrible and he was drafted in the Cowher era.

Outside of QB, the next most important position is Edge Rusher and then CB. Tomlin drafts have not been good here and Colbert has done nothing here until recently in free agency.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Antdrewjosh it was in the first few lines of the post you originally quoted of mine, about Tomlin getting more involved.

I'm sure lebeau and Butler have input, if not why have them in staff, but this defense is so far opposite of what we're used to seeing. Our secondary sucked *** in the early 2000's, but we didn't sit back in coverage, we blitzed the hell out of the qb's.

This defense worked week 1 because it was a total shocker and our offense got up and made wash one dimensional, week 2 the weather was a big factor.
Week 3, going against a team that doesn't like throwing deep and doesn't throw deep, but live the short stuff, giving them what they want is the dumbest thing I've ever seen.

Let's not try to fool ourselves, this is not Butler's defense, this is Tomlin defense, he's been getting a little more involved going back to DLs final couple seasons.
Butler has been our LB coach since DL returned basically, with all the pass rushers and blitzes and pressure we have put on QB's since he's been here. I don't think he would step in and just go soft and play coverage passive defense.

Oh you mean the one where you inferred that's it's Tomlin defense. That one?

Ok Coryea what's the difference in football since the 2000s? It's a passing league now. Not only is it a passing league teams are spread out playing three wide majority of the time. Add also that alot of teams have a pass catching TE. That means we are not in base defense Alot. The 3-4 is where you saw all those exotic looks and blitzes. We are now in nickle and dime. Spread out. Hard to fool the offense when they can see where the blitz is coming from. The 3-4 zone blitz scheme was designed by Lebeau to stop west coast offenses. That's two WRs a tight end and two RBs

As I showed before the eagles didn't throw deep they spread us out and ran on us threw short and ran play action. We have to better up front and win our matchups. Everyone harps on Jarvis I'm more dissapointed in Tuitt because I expected way more. I wanted this to be the year he approached double digit sacks like Watt. Not twenty sacks or anything but way more disruptive then he has been.

Tomlin let's his assistants coach I read that last week. So Butler is doing what he wants to do I believe to help the young guys on Defense play quicker. Running exotic blitzes out of the nickle and dime is harder cause you have to disguise it way more cause you're spread out. They are keeping it simple so these guys can play without thinking so much. So we don't blow coverages and give up big chunks.

 

[ark steel]

Deljzc,

It's all Ben, without him the offense is terrible and he was drafted in the Cowher era.

Outside of QB, the next most important position is Edge Rusher and then CB. Tomlin drafts have not been good here and Colbert has done nothing here until recently in free agency.

Ben was drafted because Rooney made Cowher do so. STOP IT with this Cowher player bullshit/

 

[Coach]

Oh you mean the one where you inferred that's it's Tomlin defense. That one?

Ok Coryea what's the difference in football since the 2000s? It's a passing league now. Not only is it a passing league teams are spread out playing three wide majority of the time. Add also that alot of teams have a pass catching TE. That means we are not in base defense Alot. The 3-4 is where you saw all those exotic looks and blitzes. We are now in nickle and dime. Spread out. Hard to fool the offense when they can see where the blitz is coming from. The 3-4 zone blitz scheme was designed by Lebeau to stop west coast offenses. That's two WRs a tight end and two RBs

As I showed before the eagles didn't throw deep they spread us out and ran on us threw short and ran play action. We have to better up front and win our matchups. Everyone harps on Jarvis I'm more dissapointed in Tuitt because I expected way more. I wanted this to be the year he approached double digit sacks like Watt. Not twenty sacks or anything but way more disruptive then he has been.

Tomlin let's his assistants coach I read that last week. So Butler is doing what he wants to do I believe to help the young guys on Defense play quicker. Running exotic blitzes out of the nickle and dime is harder cause you have to disguise it way more cause you're spread out. They are keeping it simple so these guys can play without thinking so much. So we don't blow coverages and give up big chunks.

We are in nickel and dime, playing prevent mode because we have no edge rushers! The 3-4 zone blitz when we had pass rushers was tough to deal with. And in those days we had a quality 3rd CB for the nickel and better experience at safety due to solid drafting.

They say Football is a war and in warfare, the General must adapt to the new tactics. Tomlin has not transitioned. How many impact players are there on defense? Depending on Shazier's health, none on the pro bowl level. We used to have several quality defenders at all three levels. DL, LB, and DB. And back in Cowher's day the next man up pulled his weight more often than we see today Our DL at spots 3-6 is weak, at OLB weak for the starters, and at CB and S, weak. Only ILB has what I call depth and they need it with Shazier.

Laying off the Jones punching bag for the moment, your right Tuitt is looking very average, and Hargrave under powered and not quick enough so far. If Bill Gay goes down, the entire defensive backfield will have a domino effect.

In the nickel or dime, two rookies are playing, and I'm telling you with three games film the opposing offensive coordinaor is seeing a mismatchs. With no pass rush he'll expolit them,

-Coach

 

[antdrewjosh]

You cannot compare defense in the 90s and 2000s to now. But if you must I remember the first two games of the 2002 season where the Patriots and Raiders spread us out which is the norm now and Cowher coached teams with Joey Porter got their ***** handed to them.Brady and Gannon had field days against us. So please spare me the nostalgia

 

[Coach]

You cannot compare defense in the 90s and 2000s to now. But if you must I remember the first two games of the 2002 season where the Patriots and Raiders spread us out which is the norm now and Cowher coached teams with Joey Porter got their ***** handed to them.Brady and Gannon had field days against us. So please spare me the nostalgia

Please, Kordell Stewart was the starter back then. Vs New England he has 242 yards passing, 1 TD, 3 INT. Tough to win like that. The 2002 team finshed 10-5-1 and won a playoff game, mostly because Maddox could pass a bit and took over mid-way in the season.

As stated if Tomlin had to deal with Stewart, Tomzack, Graham and Miller for years he would have been let go.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Please, Kordell Stewart was the starter back then. Vs New England he has 242 yards passing, 1 TD, 3 INT. Tough to win like that. The 2002 team finshed 10-5-1 and won a playoff game, mostly because Maddox could pass a bit and took over mid-way in the season.

As stated if Tomlin had to deal with Stewart, Tomzack, Graham and Miller for years he would have been let go.

What in the flying **** does that have to do with how to defend passing offenses as far as blitzing and being aggressive vs rushing 4 and tackling the catch??? Please tell me

 

[ark steel]

As stated if Tomlin had to deal with Stewart, Tomzack, Graham and Miller for years he would have been let go.

You mean Cowher had to deal with these **** players someone gave him?

 

[Coryea]

The Eagles don't go deep that's not their game, every one knew that, but we allowed them to take exactly what they wanted. It worked vs Cincy because they like to throw down field, but playing soft **** vs a offense like that you see what happens. If we don't have edge rushers then we better blitz, because giving qb's all day isn't going to work anymore.
Butler likes to blitz and pressure qb's, suddenly we aren't even trying.

 

[Coach]

Ben was drafted because Rooney made Cowher do so. STOP IT with this Cowher player bullshit/

If Cowher didn't like him, there is no way Ben is a Steeler. A QB picked in round one needs the head coaches approval especially early in round one. You might say Cowher was talked into the pick a bit, but he was on board with the selection.

 

[antdrewjosh]

You mean Cowher had to deal with these **** players someone gave him?

Thank you WTF. Cowher had no say on who was on his roster but Tomlin picked every last player on the team and practice squad..

And that's not even the point!!! Don't even know why other being "Coach" why he bought that up in response to my post.. when the Steelers of the 90s played any thing remotely similar to the offenses of today's game blitzing and being ultra aggressive didn't work either.

 

[antdrewjosh]

The Eagles don't go deep that's not their game, every one knew that, but we allowed them to take exactly what they wanted. It worked vs Cincy because they like to throw down field, but playing soft **** vs a offense like that you see what happens. If we don't have edge rushers then we better blitz, because giving qb's all day isn't going to work anymore.
Butler likes to blitz and pressure qb's, suddenly we aren't even trying.

Because when we play our nickel and dime packages rookies are in the game. Apparently they aren't comfortable with exposing them right now leaving them in situations where they can be susceptible to giving up big plays. If we were in our base 3-4 maybe you would be more aggressive cause in base Burns nor Davis plays.

 

[antdrewjosh]

The Eagles don't go deep that's not their game, every one knew that, but we allowed them to take exactly what they wanted. It worked vs Cincy because they like to throw down field, but playing soft **** vs a offense like that you see what happens. If we don't have edge rushers then we better blitz, because giving qb's all day isn't going to work anymore.
Butler likes to blitz and pressure qb's, suddenly we aren't even trying.

And for one game it didn't work..So of course naturally blow it up and blame

Philly won because their Oline kicked out Dline *** and their Dline kicked our Oline ***. A recipe for winning football since it was invented

 

[deljzc]

Deljzc,

It's all Ben, without him the offense is terrible and he was drafted in the Cowher era.

Outside of QB, the next most important position is Edge Rusher and then CB. Tomlin drafts have not been good here and Colbert has done nothing here until recently in free agency.

The whole offensive line isn't that bad. Antonio Brown isn't a bad player if Roethlisberger isn't on the team. I think Bell's a damn good running back (better than what I thought) if he stayed eligible. Even some of the other late round WR's like Sanders and Wallace have proven decent.

I agree Roethlisberger makes us a playoff contender. He's the straw that stirs the drink. But you can't just brush all the other pieces on offense that Colbert/Tomlin collected over the years under the rug with the assumption we'd have Michael Vick or Landry Jones instead. That's not a realistic what if situation.

Look, I'm not a Colbert apologist. I'm on record as firing him after the second 8-8 season. Period. I think he isn't looking ahead enough. I was worried about the defense 4-5 years ago. This regime didn't start until about 3 years ago. I was worried about the O-line in 2007 and 2008 (a LOT), this regime seemed happy with Starks and Colon and Mahan and Kemo.

But it's not like they haven't done ANYTHING right. That's kind of too black an answer on a gray issue.

When they do finally get to a problem, they do kind of hit it hard and it's worked okay. The offensive line IS better after Pouncey, Gilbert, DeCastro, Foster, Beachum and Villanueva came into the fold from 2009-2013. You can't deny the Steelers have drafted WR's well. You can't deny Bell is a very talented running back.

Jesus... you can disagree with them but give them some credit (however little you want) when it's deserved.

 

[antdrewjosh]

The whole offensive line isn't that bad. Antonio Brown isn't a bad player if Roethlisberger isn't on the team. I think Bell's a damn good running back (better than what I thought) if he stayed eligible. Even some of the other late round WR's like Sanders and Wallace have proven decent.

I agree Roethlisberger makes us a playoff contender. He's the straw that stirs the drink. But you can't just brush all the other pieces on offense that Colbert/Tomlin collected over the years under the rug with the assumption we'd have Michael Vick or Landry Jones instead. That's not a realistic what if situation.

Look, I'm not a Colbert apologist. I'm on record as firing him after the second 8-8 season. Period. I think he isn't looking ahead enough. I was worried about the defense 4-5 years ago. This regime didn't start until about 3 years ago. I was worried about the O-line in 2007 and 2008 (a LOT), this regime seemed happy with Starks and Colon and Mahan and Kemo.

But it's not like they haven't done ANYTHING right. That's kind of too black an answer on a gray issue.

When they do finally get to a problem, they do kind of hit it hard and it's worked okay. The offensive line IS better after Pouncey, Gilbert, DeCastro, Foster, Beachum and Villanueva came into the fold from 2009-2013. You can't deny the Steelers have drafted WR's well. You can't deny Bell is a very talented running back.

Jesus... you can disagree with them but give them some credit (however little you want) when it's deserved.

Good post Del especially considering the complaints you've had in the past

 

[ark steel]

If Cowher didn't like him, there is no way Ben is a Steeler. A QB picked in round one needs the head coaches approval especially early in round one. You might say Cowher was talked into the pick a bit, but he was on board with the selection.

His boss said do it. WTF else is he supposed to do? you got it, "get on board".

We recently merged with another company. I had to create a new integrated report for our team. We have the ability to export our data to an Access Database and use Report Writer to create a very nice Word document. Not difficult to use, but a bit intimidating because it uses Access and people are not as comfortable with Access as they are Excel. In addition, once the report is written by someone who DOES now how to do the programming, the end user doesn't do anything with the Access Database.

Boss wasn't comfortable with that process and said to do the report in Excel. Know what I did? I got on ******* board with the idea.

 

[keslerclan]

Our Pass rush is non-existent IMO because we are now trying to rush the QB with 4 defensive linemen INSTEAD of our historic 5 defensive linemen.

ALL of our past accolades in sacks/hits have been with 5 rushers...period. Now, we are trying to have the same production with 4 players WITHOUT having a true 4-3 DE on the roster.

We need a big, strong pocket pushing DE/OLB on the offenses right to make a 4-man line work. Dupree is a hopeful replacement as he is over 260# and can move but now we are playing guys over there who are more of the 'edge' style rushers. This will never work as we are giving up the QBs primary line of sight by not 'pushing' the pocket closed on this side.

Lamar Woodley was exactly the type of 'thick-built' player you need on that side of the defensive line to push the pocket closed. He NEVER was an 'edge' guy who bent his way around the end but more likely pushed his way into the backfield. (even then, he had an extra DL to make sure HE had to be single blocked)

Until we can get Dupree back on the field (and he still may not have the power to push the pocket) I would go with Tuitt at DE with Hargrave/McCullers at DT along with Heyward leaving Deebo at RDE.

Hey, IF we are going with a 4-man front, why should we be playing with undersized players in that front? All we will do is wear them out and break them down. Most ALL 4-fronts have 2 players over 300# playing inside and 2 more over 270 on the outside!

When we were successful in the past (on passing downs - Nickel defense) we had Keisel and Smith as DEs/DTs on the field with 2 OLBs over 260#. Woodley was playing at 280# and we all know Deebo has been over 260# for a while.

With Moats, Dupree and Chick now all at about 250#, (Dupree and Chick both lost 20 or so pounds in the off-season), it will be more difficult to be the type of traditional DE/OLB others and ourselves have employed in a 4-man front.

I would seriously consider Tuitt at DE/OLB in nickel with Hargraves on the field as well. IF Tuitt can 'push' the pocket back as Woodley used to, it prevents the QB from stepping up in the pocket which makes it easier for the OLB on the opposite side to reach the QB. (not to mention our two other interior DL)

While there may be some who disagree, our DL will be beaten to death with double team blocks and more likely to get injured going 3 on 2 for a full game.

Tuitt and Heyward are the only players with 4-front DE experience in college and have the requisite athleticism to ride outside on the offenses' right, IMO. BOTH of them are better athletes than Jones who is neither big, strong or fast.

 

[POP]

And for one game it didn't work..So of course naturally blow it up and blame

Philly won because their Oline kicked out Dline *** and their Dline kicked our Oline ***. A recipe for winning football since it was invented

And our DL vs their OL is 3 going against 5. Their DL vs. our OL is 4 against 5. Is there any wonder it turned out as it did?

 

[deljzc]

It was a different game in 2004-2008.

There's also a bit of revisionist history on how talented everyone was. It was a great group but it won with intimidation and physical play as much as talent. We were some bad ***** back then and the brawls we had with the Ravens and Bengals were as rough as any football ever. The league has come down on that a LOT.

We have to find a different way to be the bullies on the block and the transition (both for Lebeau, Tomlin and Steelers culture) has been difficult to say the least. I do think "The Steeler Way" kind of brought the best out of the talent we had. It worked for players like Keisel and A. Smith and Hampton and Porter and Haggans and Clark. Put any of them in a different uniform and we might never have heard of them. The team physicality this team brought game in, game out was often second to none and for a generation of football it won us a LOT of games.

I think Colbert and Tomlin (and the coordinators) have struggled to find a replacement for that as the rules have changed. We bounce around from speed to power to technique to size back to speed again. We go short on DB's, we go tall on DB's. We like runner-hitter LB's, we like thumpers in the middle blowing up lead blockers, we like 2-gap linemen or 1-gap linemen. I can't really figure out what a "Steeler Defender" looks like anymore and I think that indecisiveness permeates into the meeting rooms, into the personnel decisions, into the game plans and into the execution of the players.

Until they do, I'm afraid we are very run of the mill defense. Very "typical". Not to say we can't go far into the playoffs with that. It's happened many time in the history of football. Lots of non-descript units have done okay in the playoffs or hit a hot patch and performed well at the right time. Maybe we can do that. Our recent Super Bowl teams all had weaknesses in my opinion and none were "great". Good teams can win playing their best at the right time and getting good matchups come playoff time. I see no difference for this season.

 

[south dakota STEEL]

Tomlins Defense it is...and it isn't good...