Jackson > Rudolph

[antdrewjosh]

My thing is if you arent saying he is improving as a pocket QB or a passer you arent watching..or if you say he is just a runner you are not watching. Yes he runs but they are designed runs. He isn't dropping back and taking off at the first sign of pressure or recklessly taking off. On pass plays he is sitting in the pocket and making throws something I saw him do in college. Can he get hurt on one of those designed runs of course but that doesnt take away from what he is doing as a passer. Maybe the Ravens dial back the designed runs as his career goes on sorta like the Seahawks and Russell Wilson the more he improves as a passer. Just the threat of running will be enough to keep defenses honest. But even as a runner he knows how to protect himself. I havent seen him take a big hit in college and now the pros. Of course I hope Devin Bush knocks his block off when we play.

 

[stillwright]

The gold jacket is being created as we speak. What a career.


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The guy is having a MVP season. As of now, he should be ahead of everyone.

 

[slashsteel]

I think for LJ he has improved as a passer. He has a solid completion percentage. But 19th in yards thrown. He will need to convert some of those running yards into passing yards moving forward as the examples that are shown he could very well end up with significant injuries. I think his SB window is more now than later IF he doesn't transition those running stats into passing yards. Can he do it? A hard task for a QB that doesn't scramble to naturally think pass. But does it to run. I think with his completion percentage increasing he gives himself a fighting chance to stick longer. But in the near future as I said some of those running yards need to become passing yards and in the process of maintaining his completion ratio and minimalizing his interception ratio.

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[Ron Burgundy]

The guy is having a MVP season. As of now, he should be ahead of everyone.

Well, he is their starter and Rudolph is our backup so there is that.

 

[Coach]

That’s the difference between us and the Rats

He sucks

NFL.com rates him tied for 28th, and suggests the next week he's headed to the bottom of the list.

​

Individual Rank: Bhanpuri: 28 | Blair: 29 | Filice: 29 | Parr: 28

2019 stats: 7 games | 64.5 pct | 1,330 pass yds | 6.6 ypa | 11 pass TD | 4 INT | 23 rush yds | 0 rush TD | 0 fumbles lost

Blair: The Steelers are winning games again, which makes the question of Rudolph's future potential a much less urgent issue than his ability to serve as a competent fill-in QB who will not get in the way of a defense-driven postseason push. On Pittsburgh's two scoring drives in Sunday's victory over the Rams, Rudolph mostly looked the part, avoiding catastrophe (with some help from a penalty that wiped out a would-be pick in the first quarter) and even making a few long throws. The rest of his day was more worrisome. Rudolph and Co. averaged just 3.5 plays per drive on the Steelers' 13 non-scoring possessions, and a caught-in-the-headlights safety helped the Rams get within two points with 12:30 left to play. Still, factoring in the 10 offensive points on the day and excluding a botched snap that was returned for a Rams touchdown (since it's tough to pin that on the QB), the final Mason Rudolph points differential ended up at plus-8. And that's gravy, because honestly, the Steelers really just need to keep the ol' MRPD from sinking too far below zero to have a chance in the AFC.

POST-TNF UPDATE: The Steelers-Browns skirmish that crescendoed with Myles Garrett striking Rudolph in the head with the QB's own helmet will be the indelible memory from Thursday night's game. Fortunately, Rudolph said after the game that he was not injured during the melee. As for his performance in the 21-7 Browns victory, the second-year passer had easily the worst outing of his career. He was picked off four times, matching his INT total entering the game, and could have had a fifth if the Browns' Chad Thomas had held onto a fourth-and-1 pass that was thrown right to him early in the fourth quarter. It certainly didn't help matters that Rudolph lost his RB1 (James Conner) and WR1 (JuJu Smith-Schuster) to injuries during the proceedings, but he was off the mark throughout the night and could have a hard time avoiding the cellar in these rankings next week.




http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap30...drew-brees-slips-jared-goff-falls-from-top-20

 

[str8liner]

Everyone is on the Jackson train right now but you have to wait and see how he holds up long term. How many times have we seen this with a QB that runs.

Big deal to start, defenses learn their tendencies, that get jacked up on a running play and its all down hill from there.

That being said if the Ravens end up in the AFCCG against the Pats I will be a huge LJ Ravens fan for a day.

Never thought I would ever say that lol.

 

[madinsomniac]

Everyone is on the Jackson train right now but you have to wait and see how he holds up long term. How many times have we seen this with a QB that runs.

Big deal to start, defenses learn their tendencies, that get jacked up on a running play and its all down hill from there.

That being said if the Ravens end up in the AFCCG against the Pats I will be a huge LJ Ravens fan for a day.

Never thought I would ever say that lol.

Everyone is on the Jackson train right now but you have to wait and see how he holds up long term. How many times have we seen this with a QB that runs.

Big deal to start, defenses learn their tendencies, that get jacked up on a running play and its all down hill from there.

That being said if the Ravens end up in the AFCCG against the Pats I will be a huge LJ Ravens fan for a day.

Never thought I would ever say that lol.

Dual threat qbs typically peak within their first four seasons... RG3 was an mvp candidate as a rookie most of the way through the season... his hype was far greater than LJ btw... exact same kind of stuff written about him too... “omg look at him in the pocket... he is going to tear up the league forever...”

Look guy fall i to 4 groups... pocket passers.. mobile qbs... dual threat Qbs... Rbs who sometimes throw

The first type gradually gets better because they learn coverages and reactions of plays... think peyton manning... guy throws picks all over the place at first, but eventually gets the feel for nfl coverages and settles in. Its very traditional qb play...

The second type is looking to throw from the pocket, but can get outside the pocket if need be. Id wager these kind of guys, Ben, Wilson, young... they have the most early and sustained success... they still learn a traditional passing game but also can extend play and change angles...

The third type is dual range threats... Kordell, Cam, RG3 types... these are qbs that use their athletic ability to break down coverages... they excel at simplified offenses early, but when tendencies are fleshed out and teams stop dedicating so much to stopping their running plays and they have to beat full nfl coverages, their development is further behind than other guys... even in the pocket these guys can freeze Dbs with run fakes... that fades... there really hasn’t been a modern dual threat with consistent long term production... cam comes close and he is going to be allowed to walk at 30... think about that for an ex mvp...

Their other issue is run plays add hits, and hits add up... a qb already is taking the second most hits next to rbs... rbs have a short shelf life in the nfl... they last ten years fewer than a well protected QB... so by 28, when a good, well protected pocket qb is hitting their prime with their learning curve peaking and their athletic ability still maxed, dual threats tend to start showing the reduced reaction times rbs do... they have never been able to take advantage of the veteran experience.....

The last type is the Tim tebows of the world... basically unless you are extremely unlucky you just take away the run and watch them falter...

 

[mdk2]

What the **** are you babbling about? Are you drunk? I dont like Ben? Since when?

Just shut the **** up and sober up, dickweed

Hahaha oh shittt my fault, definitely was thinking I was responding to a different poster. Sorry for the false accusations toward you, I know that’s not accurate.




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[SteelerFan448]

I've heard that before but most running QBs do get hurt. RGIII and Cam Newton come to mind. Deshaun Watson was hurt last year. Wilson played all of 2016 hurt. Mahomes got hurt running just this year. Even if they don't get blasted they get hurt enough that they can't run like they did when they first came into the league.

RGIII, how long ago was that injury?

Mahomes was injured on a QB sneak, not exactly the running that we are talking about with a running QB. Look at some of the other injuries:

Roethlisberger - Elbow from apparently throwing the football.
Brees - Thumb while attempting a pass.
Newton - Foot injury because of a sack.
Stafford - Injured back that dates back to last year, but definitely isn't a running QB.
Flacco - Another statue in the pocket has a neck injury.
Foles - Broken collarbone while delivering a pass from the pocket.

2017 was a big year for injuries:
Tannehill - Knee buckled in practice and tore ACL.
Bradford - Non-contact knee injury early in season, plagued him all year and put on IR.
Palmer - Broke arm on hit received when throwing a pass.
Watson - Tore ACL in practice.

I really just don't see a lot of running QBs getting injured more than non-running guys. Even Cam's latest injury didn't occur when he was running. It seems like this line of thought is more wishful thinking than anything else because a lot of these guys are tough to stop.

 

[Spike]

Yep, we should tank for rd 2 Tua

 

[Hoot]

I really just don't see a lot of running QBs getting injured more than non-running guys. Even Cam's latest injury didn't occur when he was running. It seems like this line of thought is more wishful thinking than anything else because a lot of these guys are tough to stop.

Not wishful thinking, at least by me. I love the electricity a guy like this can bring to the game. I loved me some Cunningham back in the day...I was a huge Vick supporter when he first came out of VPI, and I really did like the RPO concepts that came out around the time of Kap. I liked the pistol RPO concept so much, I started coaching it because I had a left tackle situation that was getting my QB ******* devastated to the point I felt his safety was a serious concern. The kid was a helluva athlete and could do amazing **** with the ball as long as he could see what was coming at him (which he could not in a pure pocket passer situation). You know who else I loved in college...ARE. I saw him live vs. NCSU and fell in love with that guy.

The trouble, I think, comes in the math...a 225+ man running at top speed collides with another 225+ man running at top speed on a regular basis that odds are, sooner or later, the QB is going to take a significant blow. If anything goes in the mobile QB's favor these days, its the rules to protect the head shots. Old days, a QB in open turf was a head hunter's dream. Still, odds of contact related injury are significantly high for a QB running the ball on a regular basis. That doesn't mean contact injuries to pure pocket passers don't happen...of course they do, but the odds are lower. One might argue that usage based injuries (e.g. shoulders and elbows) are higher for high volume passers much like baseball pitchers, but I can get a decade out of a QB before usage based injuries become an issue. A contact based injury can happen at anytime (or never)...which, as much as I hate to say it, I like what BAL is doing with Jackson. **** it...use his talents, do everything you can to minimize risk, and ride the wave. It may well get them a trophy.

 

[Vader]

RGIII, how long ago was that injury?

Mahomes was injured on a QB sneak, not exactly the running that we are talking about with a running QB. Look at some of the other injuries:

Roethlisberger - Elbow from apparently throwing the football.
Brees - Thumb while attempting a pass.
Newton - Foot injury because of a sack.
Stafford - Injured back that dates back to last year, but definitely isn't a running QB.
Flacco - Another statue in the pocket has a neck injury.
Foles - Broken collarbone while delivering a pass from the pocket.

2017 was a big year for injuries:
Tannehill - Knee buckled in practice and tore ACL.
Bradford - Non-contact knee injury early in season, plagued him all year and put on IR.
Palmer - Broke arm on hit received when throwing a pass.
Watson - Tore ACL in practice.

I really just don't see a lot of running QBs getting injured more than non-running guys. Even Cam's latest injury didn't occur when he was running. It seems like this line of thought is more wishful thinking than anything else because a lot of these guys are tough to stop.

If you look at history you'll see these guys don't win SBs and they don't run around long. You are also only looking at current injuries. Cam has been hurt several times running. He got a concussion running a 2 point conversion against Atlanta. So just because they weren't hurt running today doesn't mean they weren't hurt in the past. You just didn't list them. He got hurt again vs. the pats**** just take a look:

 

[SteelerFan448]

The trouble, I think, comes in the math...a 225+ man running at top speed collides with another 225+ man running at top speed on a regular basis that odds are, sooner or later, the QB is going to take a significant blow. If anything goes in the mobile QB's favor these days, its the rules to protect the head shots. Old days, a QB in open turf was a head hunter's dream. Still, odds of contact related injury are significantly high for a QB running the ball on a regular basis. That doesn't mean contact injuries to pure pocket passers don't happen...of course they do, but the odds are lower. One might argue that usage based injuries (e.g. shoulders and elbows) are higher for high volume passers much like baseball pitchers, but I can get a decade out of a QB before usage based injuries become an issue. A contact based injury can happen at anytime (or never)...which, as much as I hate to say it, I like what BAL is doing with Jackson. **** it...use his talents, do everything you can to minimize risk, and ride the wave. It may well get them a trophy.

Do you see a lot of big blows on Jackson as he's dodging them and leaving them in the dust? I don't. He's making defenders look like fools. When he doesn't want to get hit, he runs out of bounds or slides. He's more likely to take a big hit standing tall in the pocket and making a throw down field.

 

[Hoot]

Do you see a lot of big blows on Jackson as he's dodging them and leaving them in the dust? I don't. He's making defenders look like fools. When he doesn't want to get hit, he runs out of bounds or slides. He's more likely to take a big hit standing tall in the pocket and making a throw down field.

Honestly, I am not really watching BAL all that much to make critical analysis of Jackson's play. But, the point I make is simple...if he runs he gets hit more often than if he doesn't run and the combine force of closing speeds is higher. Look, I get it, running QB's are exciting; I have seen them come and I have seen them go. Reality is there just is a higher risk of injury because the chance of collision and high speed collision are higher. The question is really if the risk an acceptable one. BAL certainly seems to think so. But, like others have said, history paints a different picture.

and to your pocket passer perspective: A QB can protect himself in the pocket as well...throw the ball away, tuck and crumble, etc...he does not have to stand there and take direct hits.

 

[Vader]

Even if he is standing in the pocket he can't be hit too high or too low.

 

[Hoot]

Even if he is standing in the pocket he can't be hit too high or too low.

sure he can and sometimes the zebra's will even toss their hankie on the ground over it.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Honestly, I am not really watching BAL all that much to make critical analysis of Jackson's play. But, the point I make is simple...if he runs he gets hit more often than if he doesn't run and the combine force of closing speeds is higher. Look, I get it, running QB's are exciting; I have seen them come and I have seen them go. Reality is there just is a higher risk of injury because the chance of collision and high speed collision are higher. The question is really if the risk an acceptable one. BAL certainly seems to think so. But, like others have said, history paints a different picture.

and to your pocket passer perspective: A QB can protect himself in the pocket as well...throw the ball away, tuck and crumble, etc...he does not have to stand there and take direct hits.

No matter any of our opinions, there are no statistics out there that put a running QB at a significantly greater risk for getting hurt while running than a pocket passer.

 

[Litos]

Even if he is standing in the pocket he can't be hit too high or too low.

They can even get hit with their own helmet or knocked unconscious or get body slammed. Wait, that's just Rudolph

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[Hoot]

No matter any of our opinions, there are no statistics out there that put a running QB at a significantly greater risk for getting hurt while running than a pocket passer.

I suspect quantifying half of that sentence to make a statistically sound discussion would be interesting in and of itself. That said, again, I love what running QB's can do. I really do. But if I were spending the money, I would consider risk v. reward even if it is based in my own perceptions. And, again, what BAL is doing here...selling out to his skill sets...is darn interesting. I just wish the team doing it was in the NFC because **** Baltimore with a....

 

[Vader]

No matter any of our opinions, there are no statistics out there that put a running QB at a significantly greater risk for getting hurt while running than a pocket passer.

And there are no statistics that say pocket passers get hurt more often. Basically there are just no stats on the subject.

 

[Hoot]

And there are no statistics that say pocket passers get hurt more often. Basically there are just no stats on the subject.

Just defining who is a running QB vs. who is a Pocket QB would be an epic debate.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Part of Jackson's success is also due to the rule changes that have nearly outlawed practice. Teams are far less physical that they used to be and tackling is a joke compared to years past.

The rule tweaks to favor the pass also play a big part. Nearly every defense plays with 5 DBs most of the time. Because passing became so easy, defense have had to get lighter and go for more coverage guys, even at LB.

Devin Bush would have been a 5th round pick 5 or 6 years ago. Now he's the prototype every team is looking for.

Defenses are playing far more man coverage to combat all these quick passes. You almost have to. It used to be you played a zone and when a small guy like Edelman tried to catch a crossing pattern over the middle, he would get knocked out by a big MLB. But the NFL outlawed that. Now the WR is "defenseless", meaning the LB literally has to stand there and watch him catch the ball instead of delivering a blow and breaking up the play.


It's a perfect storm for the success of Lamar Jackson
Rules to protect the QB in the pocket
Defenses not allowed to practice tackling so it's almost a lost art
Defenses getting smaller to cover the pass
Defenses play more man coverage which makes it much easier for a running QB to get easy yards because half the defense has their back turned to the QB.

The NFL is ripe to be taken advantage of by an option attack if you don't mind putting your QB at risk on so many rushing attempts.

I thought Chip Kelly was going to do this a few years ago..Sign like 3 or 4 read option QBs. have 2 QBs then a couple guys like Michael Robinson or Randle El who played QB in college but were able to play RB and WR in the NFL. Let them serve as depth as well. Then when your QB gets hurt, it's next man up.

 

[Vader]

Just defining who is a running QB vs. who is a Pocket QB would be an epic debate.

Gets worse than that. You'd have to see what QBs (even those that aren't listed as running QBs) got hurt while running the ball. Ben has never been a "running" QB but he did run from time to time.

 

[Hoot]

Gets worse than that. You'd have to see what QBs (even those that aren't listed as running QBs) got hurt while running the ball. Ben has never been a "running" QB but he did run from time to time.

agreed. Moreover, there were guys that were considered 'scramblers' but not dual threat runners. Steve Young, for example, could scramble/run but I would not put him in the same stratosphere as Jackson/Vick/Cunningham/etc.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Gets worse than that. You'd have to see what QBs (even those that aren't listed as running QBs) got hurt while running the ball. Ben has never been a "running" QB but he did run from time to time.

I did provide a pretty extensive list (not everyone) of some recent QB injuries. I searched but couldn't find any QBs who were hurt while acting as the runner.