• Please be aware we've switched the forums to their own URL. (again) You'll find the new website address to be www.steelernationforum.com Thanks
  • Please clear your private messages. Your inbox is close to being full.

Burns on film

watching the clip just a couple of times I can agree with you that he's raw (and this was obvious from the get go) but he definitly has the tools and I like that he made some plays (ints, broken passes, even that slam tackle on the sideline), always looking for the ball
Some of those catches allowed look like with a decent zone scheme wouldn't have been catches at all, he should've had some help inside on that 3rd play slant, the WR catched the ball practically in the middle of the field. In the short curls he was playing off but was it by design of his coach or was it on him?
the TD allowed was the only one where he looked really bad, looks like he hesitated trying to jump ahead on the throw and paid for it.

I really liked how he timed those jumps on the ints and how he competed for the ball in the air. Raw? yes of course, that's why he wasn't an early 1st but he definitly looks like a talented kid that with decent coaching will become a starter by his second season. Having Gay and Cockrell we don't need to rush him and definitly he's destined to play outside the marks, not in the slot

I like Ross as a sub-package type of player when 5 or more DB's are on the field. You have to like his playmaking ability! As the starting outside corner, he's a little on the slow side. Ross Cockrell ran just a 4.56 at the combine and was beaten a few times for touchdows last season. His arms are a little short for a player his height. While I think he's better than Blake for sure, I also think he's more of a #3 type of corner, best deployed on the outside in the nickle or dime. Butler will be calling plays for a lot of off man coverage...he has to!

The other problem the Steelers have is Burns, Golson, and Grant are raw. I don't think playing two or more of these guys at the same time is a good idea at the start of the season.
 
I like Ross as a sub-package type of player when 5 or more DB's are on the field. You have to like his playmaking ability! As the starting outside corner, he's a little on the slow side. Ross Cockrell ran just a 4.56 at the combine and was beaten a few times for touchdows last season. His arms are a little short for a player his height. While I think he's better than Blake for sure, I also think he's more of a #3 type of corner, best deployed on the outside in the nickle or dime. Butler will be calling plays for a lot of off man coverage...he has to!

The other problem the Steelers have is Burns, Golson, and Grant are raw. I don't think playing two or more of these guys at the same time is a good idea at the start of the season.

Cockrell and Gay in the "base" D with Golson in the Nickel. That's probably our starting CBs
 
I do not think Burns enters the NFL with a strong work ethic. He would have been much better off as a second round pick. As a first round pick on a winning team that needs help at CB, the pressure on him to produce will be higher.

I wouldn't jump to any conclusion that because Burns is a bit flamboyant and excitable (which I don't like), that he doesn't have work ethic.

There are lot of cocky players in the NFL that work their ******* tails off. Don't always like their me-first attitude, but I won't say they don't work hard.
 
Cockrell and Gay in the "base" D with Golson in the Nickel. That's probably our starting CBs

so gaycock in the base

now I know how it started

:pimp:
 
I wouldn't jump to any conclusion that because Burns is a bit flamboyant and excitable (which I don't like), that he doesn't have work ethic.

There are lot of cocky players in the NFL that work their ******* tails off. Don't always like their me-first attitude, but I won't say they don't work hard.

Isnt Burns the guy who's been supporting his 2 brothers while playing football in his junior year? That would indicate a pretty good work ethic.
 
Isnt Burns the guy who's been supporting his 2 brothers while playing football in his junior year? That would indicate a pretty good work ethic.

one would think
 
My only problem with this whole thread is I don't see any analysis or "film study" of any other CB prospect or any other prospect period.

When you evaluate the film of just one college player there is no reference as to what is "good" and what is not "good". How do I know from this article that Burns isn't the best goddamn college CB in all of football? I don't. Because the author never compares his film to any other cornerback. He just points out warts and problems on Burns without the context of what equitable college cornerbacks would do in the same situations.

It's great film study, don't get me wrong. He looks at every play, just like PFF does. He grades each play +/- just like PFF does. All he fails to do is put a number grade to each play like PFF does.

But just like we criticize PFF's grading system, it's not all about play success when evaluating college talent. We know measureables come into it. We know we are talking about 20-21 year olds that have not reached their full potential. We know psychological profile matters and how they handle being a full-time football player away from the some of the "protection" and special treatment these athletes have had their whole lives.

I love watching tape. But watching college tape is not so much about consistency as evaluating whether they can or can't do certain things and whether those things can be forecast to change. You try and forecast success based on years of experience in watching players and knowing what can change in an athlete between year 1 and year 4.

Burns has a lot decent potential on tape. He can play man-2-man outside the hash marks as I see no physical or technical limitations on that. He can play zone and show okay ability to anticipate throws and read plays in front of him. He struggles with underneath crossing routes and following men "across the field" but that could be scheme or what he has been taught. He certainly has the physical characteristics to learn it. He can catch and his hands are adequate for a CB. He is not currently a great tackler, but that can be taught. He shows an okay affinity to be physical and get his nose dirty.

And when I evaluate these things I am evaluating them AS COMPARABLE to other CB's I've watched in this draft class (and all my previous experience watching CB's). I'm not watching play-by-play success rate. That's pointless. That's not what "evaluating tape" even means. You are looking at his "feel" for the game. His smoothness in motion. His physicality and willingness to stick his nose into it. His on-field demeanor. His footwork and fundamentals and whether those things can be improved. His size/length/speed on tape vs. measured.

That's what tape evaluation is. It's almost never what actually happens on a play. Never.
 
good post del.
just out of curiosity, did you do some real NFL/college scouting at sometime?
 
I wouldn't jump to any conclusion that because Burns is a bit flamboyant and excitable (which I don't like), that he doesn't have work ethic.

There are lot of cocky players in the NFL that work their ******* tails off. Don't always like their me-first attitude, but I won't say they don't work hard.

Coach - you really are reaching here. Burns doesn't have a strong work ethic? Are you kidding me. The guy was going to school, taking care of kids, running track, and playing NCAA football at a major university. Oh, and BTW - the kid turned 21 a little over 3 weeks ago. What were you doing at 20 years old? I'm assuming it wasn't remotely close to what this kid HAD to do.

Oh, and watching just the tape like you mentioned gets you guys like Justin Gilbert.
 
Alexander gives you better "stickiness" in coverage right now.
however, Burns gives you better height, wingspan, overall size, hands and upside.
not to mention, he will more than likely turn into a pretty good run support guy.



If height, wingspan, and hands were all you need, Cortez Allen would be in the pro bowl. Just saying...

I'm not sold on Burns speed to cover deep yet. More evaluation is needed. I do believe he lacks some quickness and based on the 8 games of targets I have seen, has issues with slants posts, and come back route. He;d get burned badly in the slot.

Burns has potential to be good, but he's raw, lacks a football IQ, and might have some maturity issues. Those are three red flags and they show on the film. At least that's who he is coming out of college. We shall see in which areas he can improve on in time.

The Steelers have spent a 1st, ( Burns ) a 2nd ( Golson ) , a 2nd ( Davis ) and a 4th ( Grant ) recently on defensive backs. Two of these players must pan out.
 
I disagree on the maturity issues and the lack of football IQ. I don't know how can you say that without Any evidence. And don't reply with the flags because he was and still is a kid and its only showing passion for the game. He ain't a problematic guy in any shape or form
 
My only problem with this whole thread is I don't see any analysis or "film study" of any other CB prospect or any other prospect period.

When you evaluate the film of just one college player there is no reference as to what is "good" and what is not "good". How do I know from this article that Burns isn't the best goddamn college CB in all of football? I don't. Because the author never compares his film to any other cornerback. He just points out warts and problems on Burns without the context of what equitable college cornerbacks would do in the same situations.

It's great film study, don't get me wrong. He looks at every play, just like PFF does. He grades each play +/- just like PFF does. All he fails to do is put a number grade to each play like PFF does.

But just like we criticize PFF's grading system, it's not all about play success when evaluating college talent. We know measureables come into it. We know we are talking about 20-21 year olds that have not reached their full potential. We know psychological profile matters and how they handle being a full-time football player away from the some of the "protection" and special treatment these athletes have had their whole lives.

I love watching tape. But watching college tape is not so much about consistency as evaluating whether they can or can't do certain things and whether those things can be forecast to change. You try and forecast success based on years of experience in watching players and knowing what can change in an athlete between year 1 and year 4.

Burns has a lot decent potential on tape. He can play man-2-man outside the hash marks as I see no physical or technical limitations on that. He can play zone and show okay ability to anticipate throws and read plays in front of him. He struggles with underneath crossing routes and following men "across the field" but that could be scheme or what he has been taught. He certainly has the physical characteristics to learn it. He can catch and his hands are adequate for a CB. He is not currently a great tackler, but that can be taught. He shows an okay affinity to be physical and get his nose dirty.

And when I evaluate these things I am evaluating them AS COMPARABLE to other CB's I've watched in this draft class (and all my previous experience watching CB's). I'm not watching play-by-play success rate. That's pointless. That's not what "evaluating tape" even means. You are looking at his "feel" for the game. His smoothness in motion. His physicality and willingness to stick his nose into it. His on-field demeanor. His footwork and fundamentals and whether those things can be improved. His size/length/speed on tape vs. measured.

That's what tape evaluation is. It's almost never what actually happens on a play. Never.

I did a film evaluation on Jackson III prior to the draft, and he's much better in coverage and making plays in general. Boy, I wish he was on the board for us in round one. If someone can find a targeted snap count video thread on another CB drafted in round one, or two I can do a similar review to add depth. Fair enough?

Compared to the other CB's drafted in the first 60 picks, Bruns is perhaps the least NFL-ready of the bunch, which magnifies the risk.

I call them as I see them, the good, and the bad on each play, and think the description of what happened is accurate.

Burns has much to work on. Mentally he's a bit of a hot head. He's, rather poor on route recongition, and where the first down marker is. He's a bit contract prone, and could draw more flags in the NFL.

Physically, I agree he's good outside the hash marks, and good when he's facing the QB and the ball is on its way but loses some ground on routes that are not run in a straight lines inside the hash marks. Is his pre-snap read and zone coverage was better, you could argue he'd make a fine FS type, Seattle Style.

I'm still unsure of how good Burns long speed is, and the Steelers play a lot of cover 3, meaning CB's can be on their own deep at times. He could end up being a Chad Scott type, which to me would be a disapointment.
 
I disagree on the maturity issues and the lack of football IQ. I don't know how can you say that without Any evidence. And don't reply with the flags because he was and still is a kid and its only showing passion for the game. He ain't a problematic guy in any shape or form

Then we differ here. It's clear Burns had maturity some issues in college. Did you not see him jawing and the UM coaches grabbing him off the field? He's also younger than most draft prospects.

Football IQ to for a CB to me is thus: Knowing where you are on the field, and where the first down marker is. Reading the QB, and understanding how routes are run. Knowing when to turn your head around. Film study on the receivers your are covering, noting where they are strong, tendencies, and where they are weak.

Essentially putting yourself in the best position pre and post snap to make a play. Or if you prefer good instincts.

Burns lacks the above in general, he best when he's looking at the play, not while its developing.
 
If history is any indication Burns will be an All Pro since Coach is already writing him off before Training camp lol
 
If history is any indication Burns will be an All Pro since Coach is already writing him off before Training camp lol

Haha, that would be overstating it. I wasn't fond at all of the Hood or Jarvis Jones picks if you really want to know. I would not put Burns in that group, though I do worry about his transition to the NFL, and think he has a higher bust factor based on rawness, and flaws in his game.

If the Steelers had an all pro corner, we'd be in the super bowl
 
Haha, that would be overstating it. I wasn't fond at all of the Hood or Jarvis Jones picks if you really want to know. I would not put Burns in that group, though I do worry about his transition to the NFL, and think he has a higher bust factor based on rawness, and flaws in his game.

If the Steelers had an all pro corner, we'd be in the super bowl

But we don't need him to start right away. We can ease him in. Cockrell can hold it down til Burns is ready
 
But we don't need him to start right away. We can ease him in. Cockrell can hold it down til Burns is ready

No, we don't need him to start in September, but we do need him to contribute for the season.

The Steelers have spent a 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 4th round draft pick in the past two seasons. Our secondary is hurting. We can't afford to wait until 2017 for dividends.

Cockrell is a decent sub package player, but he's a tad slow to play the outside with 4 DB's deployed. Don;t get me wrong, he's better than Blake for sure, but more of a 3rd corner on the outside and no suited at all for the slot.
 
Cockrell seemed just fine playing last year. Didn't look out if place at all. Burns and Davis can both be used in our sub packages and brought along slowly. I for one do not believe we are hurting. The secondary and defense improved all year and was playing at a high level at the end of the year.
 
No, we don't need him to start in September, but we do need him to contribute for the season.

The Steelers have spent a 1st, 2nd, 2nd, and 4th round draft pick in the past two seasons. Our secondary is hurting. We can't afford to wait until 2017 for dividends.

Cockrell is a decent sub package player, but he's a tad slow to play the outside with 4 DB's deployed. Don;t get me wrong, he's better than Blake for sure, but more of a 3rd corner on the outside and no suited at all for the slot.

Well... that type of overkill on a position is how the Steelers' front office handles issues. We spent two 1st and two 2nd round picks on the Offensive Line (Pouncey, DeCastro, Gilbert, Adams). We've spent a lot on Linebackers (Timmons, Woodley, Davis, Worilds, Spence, Jones, Shazier, Dupree).

I mean, that's kind of their M.O. at this point. Not sure where the next "positional group" that stinks is going to come from at this point, but lord knows we'll probably try to get by with band-aids for about 2-3 seasons, ignore it in the draft (except with some late round fluff picks) and then total go overboard over a period of 2-3 drafts.

This group certainly doesn't look ahead and anticipate where the weakness on the roster is going to happen and draft accordingly. The weakness has to reach up and bite them in the *** first.
 
Well... that type of overkill on a position is how the Steelers' front office handles issues. We spent two 1st and two 2nd round picks on the Offensive Line (Pouncey, DeCastro, Gilbert, Adams). We've spent a lot on Linebackers (Timmons, Woodley, Davis, Worilds, Spence, Jones, Shazier, Dupree).

I mean, that's kind of their M.O. at this point. Not sure where the next "positional group" that stinks is going to come from at this point, but lord knows we'll probably try to get by with band-aids for about 2-3 seasons, ignore it in the draft (except with some late round fluff picks) and then total go overboard over a period of 2-3 drafts.

This group certainly doesn't look ahead and anticipate where the weakness on the roster is going to happen and draft accordingly. The weakness has to reach up and bite them in the *** first.

I don't really know what you expect them to do. I just don't quite understand this anticipate stuff. How exactly do you do that? Let's say, God forbid, Ben's arm falls off or something about Week 3 this year. Would you be critical of them stating they were to anticipate that? Do you ignore present issues now so you can address anticipations down the road? You simply cannot avoid all weaknesses in a roster in today's NFL. Do you force positions in the draft because you anticipate a weakness, even if you have other players at other positions rated higher?

I respect what you have to say about the college talent. I just don't know it like folks like you do. I could, however, do without the little potshots at the FO all the time. You think you could do it better. Maybe you could. But we get it.
 
I don't really know what you expect them to do. I just don't quite understand this anticipate stuff. How exactly do you do that? Let's say, God forbid, Ben's arm falls off or something about Week 3 this year. Would you be critical of them stating they were to anticipate that? Do you ignore present issues now so you can address anticipations down the road? You simply cannot avoid all weaknesses in a roster in today's NFL. Do you force positions in the draft because you anticipate a weakness, even if you have other players at other positions rated higher?

I respect what you have to say about the college talent. I just don't know it like folks like you do. I could, however, do without the little potshots at the FO all the time. You think you could do it better. Maybe you could. But we get it.

Well... I don't hide I think Colbert is overrated and Tomlin is average. I would have fired Colbert after the 2013 season. I'm on record to do that.

Whether the course to keep everyone together after 2013 is for the best or not, who knows. We will see how we perform the next couple of seasons.
 
Well... I don't hide I think Colbert is overrated and Tomlin is average. I would have fired Colbert after the 2013 season. I'm on record to do that.

Whether the course to keep everyone together after 2013 is for the best or not, who knows. We will see how we perform the next couple of seasons.

Earlier in the thread you advanced the argument that you cannot judge Burns in a vacuum, you have to judge him by comparing him to other DBs in the draft. Does this same thought process apply to the Steelers FO? Has anyone done a comparison of all the teams and their success rate with draft picks? To be honest, I don't quite know how you would do that. I have seen posts where people link things. Just recently there was a post about how the Steelers do well with the draft. I never paid it much mind because I think the criteria would have to be very subjective, right?

Anyway, I just think to be fair you can't look at the Steeler FO in a vacuum. Every team has success and failure when it comes to the draft. Every team has hot and cold stretches. The same guys who drafted so well from 1969-1974 did not do nearly as well after that. Did they forget how, or get stupid or something?

I really have no loyalty to Colbert or Tomlin for that matter. I will always say this, though. If you make a move, it damn well be for definitively better, and that is the risk. These guys are pretty good, and have given us a lot of good football over the years. Could it be better? Sure. But it could be a hell of a lot worse, too.
 
Earlier in the thread you advanced the argument that you cannot judge Burns in a vacuum, you have to judge him by comparing him to other DBs in the draft. Does this same thought process apply to the Steelers FO? Has anyone done a comparison of all the teams and their success rate with draft picks? To be honest, I don't quite know how you would do that. I have seen posts where people link things. Just recently there was a post about how the Steelers do well with the draft. I never paid it much mind because I think the criteria would have to be very subjective, right?

Anyway, I just think to be fair you can't look at the Steeler FO in a vacuum. Every team has success and failure when it comes to the draft. Every team has hot and cold stretches. The same guys who drafted so well from 1969-1974 did not do nearly as well after that. Did they forget how, or get stupid or something?

I really have no loyalty to Colbert or Tomlin for that matter. I will always say this, though. If you make a move, it damn well be for definitively better, and that is the risk. These guys are pretty good, and have given us a lot of good football over the years. Could it be better? Sure. But it could be a hell of a lot worse, too.

Yeah that article makes you wonder how he Colbert really stacks up. Is it accurate or is fans simply being unreasonable in their evals?



STEELERNATION1_zpsuuyiffvv.jpg
 
Well... I don't hide I think Colbert is overrated and Tomlin is average. I would have fired Colbert after the 2013 season. I'm on record to do that.

Whether the course to keep everyone together after 2013 is for the best or not, who knows. We will see how we perform the next couple of seasons.

Deljzc,

We agree here. The truth is both Colbert and Tomlin owe their jobs to Ben. He makes up for so much and without him, the team lacks the talent drafted from 2007- present and coaching skills to make up for it.

As a GM, Colbert misses too often in the draft, has cap issues do to bad signings, and hasn't hit on trading away picks for players ( Example Boykin and Scobee ).

Colbert seems best drafting offensive players. Brown, Bell, DeCastro, Gilbert, ect.. He's also pretty good at picking up rookie free agents, and other teams left for dead on wire claims.

It's on defense where I have my issues with Colbert. The Woodley and Allen deals cost us dead money in cap space, and J Jones, and Z Hood were bad first round picks.

My issues with Tomlin has already been stated here before. No need to re-type them.
 
Top