• Please be aware we've switched the forums to their own URL. (again) You'll find the new website address to be www.steelernationforum.com Thanks
  • Please clear your private messages. Your inbox is close to being full.

Washington Post: Steelers Draw Most Draft Value In Last 20 Years

Still trying to figure out how the Jags are at 7 when all the other teams in the top 10 have been regular playoff contenders. No surprise who 31 and 32 are. Easily the two worst run franchises in the league.
 
Steel Vanguard said:
Still trying to figure out how the Jags are at 7 when all the other teams in the top 10 have been regular playoff contenders. No surprise who 31 and 32 are. Easily the two worst run franchises in the league.
Click to expand...

They got Jags at 7? This thing just lost all credibility. Jags, like the Browns, have had entire draft classes with zero quality players drafted....entire drafts. This is loco.
 
I was doing a lot of this research on my own but this is a pretty in-depth analysis.

And truthfully, we are #1 because of what we did PRIOR to Mike Tomlin's arrival.

Look at our best picks from each round:

We have the #8 and #12 overall BEST first round selections since 1996 in Ben Roethlisberger and Alan Faneca (and Polamalu is in the top-20).
We have the #5 and #14 overall best third round selections since 1996 in Hines Ward and Joey Porter
We have the #3, #10 and #11 (tie) overall best fourth round selections since 1996 in Aaron Smith, Ike Taylor and Larry Foote
We have the #4 overall best seventh round selection since 1996 in Brett Keisel

All those huge positives to our score were way before Mike Tomlin ever showed up.

The only real "hits" Mike Tomlin has on his resume that look like career Steelers (and huge AV collectors - which is what this chart is measuring): Timmons, Pouncey, Gilbert and A Brown. They all have 2nd contracts. Heyward, DeCastro and Bell might be getting 2nd contracts, maybe not.

I mean, there is no doubt A. Brown is this era's greatest draft choice. I won't deny that. He is already the 3rd best sixth round draft choice taken since 1996 and he's only half done with his career. He's projected to be over 100 AV in his career which is hall-of-fame good.

The others have a long way to go before they get close to the "golden era" of Steelers drafting, which is arguably right when this chart started (1996) and went to getting Roethlisberger in 2004.
 
Tibs said:
Really? You must be kidding.
Click to expand...

Oh... Heyward did get a big 2nd contract. Forgot about that.

DeCastro and Bell are coming up. Likely but nothing is 100%.
 
deljzc said:
Oh... Heyward did get a big 2nd contract. Forgot about that.

DeCastro and Bell are coming up. Likely but nothing is 100%.
Click to expand...

Are you somehow trying to construe this as them not being WORTH 2nd contracts? If so, your argument falls entirely flat because they are both excellent players and were obviously great picks.
 
Supersteeler said:
Are you somehow trying to construe this as them not being WORTH 2nd contracts? If so, your argument falls entirely flat because they are both excellent players and were obviously great picks.
Click to expand...

Depends on what they ask for. I think Bell will want $10 million/season. Do we want to invest that into a RB?

And we already have one of the highest paid O-lines in the league (as a % of salary cap). We've paid Pouncey, Gilbert and Foster. We had to overpay in free agency (which are always overpaid) for a journeyman LT. And I would argue (and so would his agent) that DeCastro is actually our best player on the offensive line, so he should get the most money. Can we afford that as well?

Money doesn't grow on trees in this league....
 
deljzc said:
Depends on what they ask for. I think Bell will want $10 million/season. Do we want to invest that into a RB?

And we already have one of the highest paid O-lines in the league (as a % of salary cap). We've paid Pouncey, Gilbert and Foster. We had to overpay in free agency (which are always overpaid) for a journeyman LT. And I would argue (and so would his agent) that DeCastro is actually our best player on the offensive line, so he should get the most money. Can we afford that as well?

Money doesn't grow on trees in this league....
Click to expand...
Wait, Bell should take what we can afford because that's what players interested in being great do, so don't worry about it.
 
Supersteeler said:
Are you somehow trying to construe this as them not being WORTH 2nd contracts? If so, your argument falls entirely flat because they are both excellent players and were obviously great picks.
Click to expand...

Of course they a great picks and probably worth second contracts......but at what price??
 
deljzc said:
Depends on what they ask for. I think Bell will want $10 million/season. Do we want to invest that into a RB?

And we already have one of the highest paid O-lines in the league (as a % of salary cap). We've paid Pouncey, Gilbert and Foster. We had to overpay in free agency (which are always overpaid) for a journeyman LT. And I would argue (and so would his agent) that DeCastro is actually our best player on the offensive line, so he should get the most money. Can we afford that as well?

Money doesn't grow on trees in this league....
Click to expand...

This says something negative about them being by Tombert.....how? I'm still struggling to see how either of these contract situations can be spun into negative draft decisions. Not seeing any connection.... or how they can be seen as anything other than excellent picks for that matter.
 
Steel Ballin said:
Of course they a great picks and probably worth second contracts......but at what price??
Click to expand...

Sorry I am trying to figure out this argument. Hell I'm just glad they are worth large 2nd contracts. Sure beats the opposite of drafting a complete bust who you can't wait to get off the roster or a very pedestrian guy like Ziggy Hood that you have no second thought about letting walk when their contract comes up.
 
Last edited:
deljzc said:
Depends on what they ask for. I think Bell will want $10 million/season. Do we want to invest that into a RB?

And we already have one of the highest paid O-lines in the league (as a % of salary cap). We've paid Pouncey, Gilbert and Foster. We had to overpay in free agency (which are always overpaid) for a journeyman LT. And I would argue (and so would his agent) that DeCastro is actually our best player on the offensive line, so he should get the most money. Can we afford that as well?

Money doesn't grow on trees in this league....
Click to expand...

Harris wasn't overpaid, why do you say that? He got backup money and can start if needed in two positions, that's value right there .

I agree Bell will demand big money and I don't think it would be a good investment (10M a year), the guy is one strike away from missing a season and unfortunately has suffered two ugly injuries. I'm all for keeping him at a decent contract but not top RB

Edit: my post has nothing to do with tomlins quality drafting
 
Litos said:
Harris wasn't overpaid, why do you say that? He got backup money and can start if needed in two positions, that's value right there .

I agree Bell will demand big money and I don't think it would be a good investment (10M a year), the guy is one strike away from missing a season and unfortunately has suffered two ugly injuries. I'm all for keeping him at a decent contract but not top RB
Click to expand...

He's going to get top RB money from somebody as long as he is healthy, you can bank on that. If the Steelers don't give it to him, he'll have quite a few other teams offering them up. They guy was unanimously considered in the mix for the best all around RB in the league before this last injury.
 
Supersteeler said:
He's going to get top RB money from somebody as long as he is healthy, you can bank on that. If the Steelers don't give it to him, he'll have quite a few other teams offering them up. They guy was unanimously considered in the mix for the best all around RB in the league before this last injury.
Click to expand...

That's why I said he will demand big money but should we pay it? I'm not sure RB should be a top contract in the roster, especially one with the problems I said before
 
Supersteeler said:
This says something negative about them being by Tombert.....how? I'm still struggling to see how either of these contract situations can be spun into negative draft decisions. Not seeing any connection.... or how they can be seen as anything other than excellent picks for that matter.
Click to expand...

It doesn't to me. But it does for this analysis on this website.

If you bothered to read the fine print, the analysis is only based on what AV the players accumulate FOR THE TEAMS THAT DRAFTED THEM.

So San Diego does not get credit for a majority of Drew Brees' AV accumulation.

One of the reasons the Steelers are on top of an analysis like this is from 1996 to 2005, we retained almost all the good draft picks we made. If that does not continue during the Tomlin regime, than this type of analysis will negatively impact our ability to remain on top of this chart (whether 5 years from now or 10 years from now).

I'm just pointing out one of the main reasons we come out on top of this type of analysis.
 
This is one of those retarded discussions where everybody says their president did all this great stuff but the other president did nothing but ****.

The Tomlin and Tolbert haters will always have excuses for the continued success of this team.

Mike Tomlin has been head coach for 9 seasons. Among active coaches with 5 or more seasons as head coach, only Mike McCarthy and Bill Belicheat have a better winning percentage. And oh BTW, the two best QBs in the NFL over that span.

Mike Tomlin is the youngest SB winning head coach in history. He's won the AFC twice. He's rebuilt the ENTIRE ROSTER (except Ben) from the ground up without turning in a losing season.

Hating Tomlin is a religion. And like religion, no amount of science or reason will overcome this dogma. People are emotionally attached to hating Tomlin the same way they are to loving Jesus.
 
Steel Vanguard said:
This is one of those retarded discussions where everybody says their president did all this great stuff but the other president did nothing but ****.

The Tomlin and Tolbert haters will always have excuses for the continued success of this team.

Mike Tomlin has been head coach for 9 seasons. Among active coaches with 5 or more seasons as head coach, only Mike McCarthy and Bill Belicheat have a better winning percentage. And oh BTW, the two best QBs in the NFL over that span.

Mike Tomlin is the youngest SB winning head coach in history. He's won the AFC twice. He's rebuilt the ENTIRE ROSTER (except Ben) from the ground up without turning in a losing season.

Hating Tomlin is a religion. And like religion, no amount of science or reason will overcome this dogma. People are emotionally attached to hating Tomlin the same way they are to loving Jesus.
Click to expand...

and what are you emotionally attached to? things attached to your skin color perhaps?


I am glad Tomlin finally won a playoff game after a long dry spell. But I think it was less hatred with fans, and more about what he wasn't accomplishing in the here and now with a top shelf QB. As this is a what have you done for me lately league, that sprinkles down to a fanbase that expects more than a one and done win every five years.

We can point to what Tomlin has accomplished and it has a lot to like. But mostly coming off a former coach's roster.

I think it is valid for fans to want more from Tomlin with what is on the roster, especially on O.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MTC
Steel Vanguard said:
This is one of those retarded discussions where everybody says their president did all this great stuff but the other president did nothing but ****.

The Tomlin and Tolbert haters will always have excuses for the continued success of this team.

Mike Tomlin has been head coach for 9 seasons. Among active coaches with 5 or more seasons as head coach, only Mike McCarthy and Bill Belicheat have a better winning percentage. And oh BTW, the two best QBs in the NFL over that span.

Mike Tomlin is the youngest SB winning head coach in history. He's won the AFC twice. He's rebuilt the ENTIRE ROSTER (except Ben) from the ground up without turning in a losing season.

Hating Tomlin is a religion. And like religion, no amount of science or reason will overcome this dogma. People are emotionally attached to hating Tomlin the same way they are to loving Jesus.
Click to expand...

Boy... you're pissy today.

It's an interesting website. And it uses Approximate Value from Football Reference.com as it's method of measuring value, which I actually agree with. It's not perfect, but it's good. I remember discussing this with TMC and he did something similar except he measured value as "Games Started". I also think the value of 2nd contracts is an interested method of evaluation, but that would take a lot of work.

Believe me, this website answers A LOT of questions I did a lot of work to find the answers to. In fact I have measured "what I would have done" in every draft since 2007 using Approximate Value. I evaluated every draft we've done using Approximate Value as one of the main methods of success.

But this website is not a reflection of Mike Tomlin's era yet. Not even close.

Because this is "accumulated" older players will have much more AV points than younger players.

The reason Jacksonville is 7th on this list is because it is measuring the players Jacksonville used to win 40 games between 2004-2007 (including a playoff game in Pittsburgh and Tomlin/Roethlisberger if I recall).

This list really is more a snap shot in teams success about 3-4 seasons ago more than now.

This list will not look the same when we measure 2007-2026 ten years from now. We've talked about the fact our 2008 and 2009 drafts have yielded exceptionally low AV production FOR OUR TEAM (which is what this is measuring) because neither of those draft classes had any player stick on the Steelers for a 2nd contract (or were even on the team 5+ years after the draft). Will Pittsburgh be high on the list? Probably. Stability helps. As does our M.O. of paying our own rather than spending a lot in free agency. But I doubt with our underwhelming 2008 and 2009 draft classes that will be #1, maybe not even top-5.

I think this is a really great website. Just understand what it is measuring and the fact it weighs those players from 1996-2002 (whose careers are mostly over and accumulated in full their AV) way higher than those players drafted 2010-2015 even if the newer players are much better talents (they haven't accumulated AV yet).

It is not an attack on Tomlin, just the fact this analysis really stresses the success of our drafts prior to Tomlin much more so that what he has done since he's been here.
 
Different sport, but was Len Bias a good draft pick by the Celtics? Be was a phenomenal athlete. Unfortunately he didn't transition well to the pros. (That's an understatement.).

But just because he had the bad luck of being injured or (dead) doesn't necessarily mean be was a bad draft pick does it?

I mean Maurkice Pouncey may be a great center of be ever gets on the field again for more than 3 regular season games in a stretch. And Leveon Bell is certainly a great Running Back when not suspended or modeling the Duce Staley fashion line. So clearly they were GREAT draft picks.

It's not like they actually have to PLAY to be good for the team. We just have to KNOW that if they COULD play they be better than the opposing team's players and definitely better than the terrible backups we have to plug in because our amazing guys can't play, but could, but can't!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top