Washington Post: Steelers Draw Most Draft Value In Last 20 Years

[BLITZ]

I was thinking this thread had potential to turn into a Cowher/Tomlin debate. have had one of those in a while.

I think I like both coaches.

 

[Coryea]

which wasnt my point at all. I mean, Cowher also had Jamain Stephens and Alonzo Jackson. Those are negated by Tomlin's Sweed and Hood picks.

so, again:
Cowher did better later in the draft than Tomlin does/has done. Both are pretty damn good, IMO.

I'm just pointing out that IMO, the draft choices Cowher hit on early are way better than the ones Tomlin hit on early.

 

[antdrewjosh]

I was thinking this thread had potential to turn into a Cowher/Tomlin debate. have had one of those in a while.

I think I like both coaches.

Yep thought we were done with that..I mean if last year down your QB RB WR LT C backup RB at crucial junctures and still coming with in a fumble from your third string RB of playing in the AFC championship didn't show some people Tomlin can coach nothing will..

 

[obxsteeler]

I don't agree with this.

This is not about comparing eras. We've talked about this ad naseum. Cowher never had (until his final three seasons) a quarterback anywhere near as talented at Ben Roethlisberger. It's not even close.

And we've gone back in history and pretty much proven there was little, if any, opportunity to change his quarterback situation. Especially from 1994-2000. In 2000 (Colbert's first draft as being in charge with Cowher) there is some debate about maybe Pennington vs. Burress.

Tomlin has never had to deal with instability at the QB position. He's had one, hall-of-fame quarterback run his team for his entire 9 year tenure. His only worry at that position has been to decide who the backup would be.

By any definition, that makes both coaches have a completely different criteria of expectation and ability to succeed. Thus they are never going to be apples to apples in evaluating their accomplishments. You just can't ignore that one coach had Roethlisberger and one did not. The talent gap at that position is too great and too important.

Each coach must be evaluated completely differently.

Tomlin is a success, but his successes have come early in his career rather than late. Obviously it will be interesting to see what he does in the next 3-4 seasons with Roethlisberger now. And in many ways his ability to actually "rebuild" a championship caliber team will add to his legacy and definition as a head coach.

To me, Tomlin is in a group of coaches that were lucky enough to have franchise quarterbacks and ALL have perhaps lacked in the type of consistent playoff attendance and success you'd expect: Tom Coughlin (with E. Manning), Sean Payton (with Brees) and Mike McCarthy (with Rogers).

In each of those cases, you could argue they have under performed in a few too many seasons considering their quarterback advantage. But all (including Tomlin) are champions, so that success grants them huge leeway and job security. But each of their championships are fading fast into history (NYG in 2011, GB in 2010, NO in 2009 and Pittsburgh in 2008).

Which coaches' team is most successful maybe in the next couple of season might define their legacies (obviously Coughlin's is done). And maybe a new breed of coach/QB combinations will now define the next decade (Rivera/Newton, Carroll/Wilson).

The window of opportunity when you have the quarterback closes quickly, not just because your guy gets old, but because others are now added to the mix as legitimate threats.

Do you think coaches have anything to do with QB's turning into franchise status?

 

[madinsomniac]

doesnt surprise me that we are high on this list... people here have an unrealistic expectation of draft picks working out... the vast majority across the league never contribute. getting one or two good players is really all you should expect from a draft class, not two hall of famers, 3 pro bowlers, and 2 starters or whatever sky high expectation we tend to have here every year....

 

[Steel Vanguard]

doesnt surprise me that we are high on this list... people here have an unrealistic expectation of draft picks working out... the vast majority across the league never contribute. getting one or two good players is really all you should expect from a draft class, not two hall of famers, 3 pro bowlers, and 2 starters or whatever sky high expectation we tend to have here every year....

And Steeler fans are spoiled. We're in contention EVERY YEAR. Do you realize how many teams would give their left nut to be consistently competitive for the last 20+ years?

To make that happen, we must be doing SOMETHING right in the personnel department.

 

[madinsomniac]

And Steeler fans are spoiled. We're in contention EVERY YEAR. Do you realize how many teams would give their left nut to be consistently competitive for the last 20+ years?

To make that happen, we must be doing SOMETHING right in the personnel department.

You have to understand that a stacked team will also by nature have fewer draft picks make it... If a team has a ton of talent a young guy has to be exceptional to push someone off the roster... Plus draft classes arent all equal either... A first rounder one year might be a second or even third another year...

 

[deljzc]

Do you think coaches have anything to do with QB's turning into franchise status?

Maybe. But stability seems to mean just as much.

In the careers of all great coach-QB combinations the debate can always rage about who made who or which was more important.

Many debate what Brady would be without Belichick. Same with Montana without Walsh.

People don't seem to discuss that with other quarterbacks: Manning without Dungy? Still likely very good. Marino without Shula? Elway became an almost black/white quarterback between his years under Dan Reeves and then without but still successful at all times.

I also think coaches who come from offensive backgrounds and/or groom non-1st rounders into stars seem to get more credit in this debate. This defines Walsh turning the undersized and average armed Montana into the leader of an offensive juggernaut during the 80's. Or Belichick finding a system with endless coordinators that somehow turned that pale, flabby, average armed Brady that showed up at the combine that no one wanted to draft (included the Steelers) into a hall-of-famer. Even Sean Payton seemed to hold the "guru" title a bit during New Orleans success because 2nd rounder Brees was even noticeably better (and statistically more dominant) than he ever was in San Diego.

For the most part, historically top-10 QB's seem to develop independently of their coaches (at least in the minds of fans). There is a certain level of expectation that comes with that talent that coaches can only hurt, not help (though we know that's not the case).

As for Roethlisberger, his success and talent manifested itself with Cowher (and Whisenhunt) almost immediately. If anything I think there was significant fan concern that the Tomlin/Arians era actually hurt Roethlisberger's development, pandering to his youthful wishes a bit too much and failing to address or correct the problems of his play style. For many (me included) the comfort level with Arians was a bit too high. I think it took a more forced working relationship with Haley to partly mature Roethlisberger into a better professional. Could he have done that at age 25? Probably not... who knows. And one of the main reasons to promote Arians in 2007 was to smooth over the waters with a new, young, brash Tomlin at the start and to guarantee Roethlisberger would sign that important second contract at the right price. The phrase happy wife, happy life certainly applies to franchise quarterbacks as well.

It is a complex relationship and one the fans don't fully get to see behind the curtain. Becoming great in any profession often takes a little bit of luck to go along with the talent. Being in the right place at the right time. Hitching on to a wagon of other successful and talented people. Understanding the direction of the "success river" and not fighting against the current.

For many talented individuals, both in sports and life, many are caught up losing out in one of the above only to become footnotes of history while others with equal talent become rich and famous for generations. If it was easy to identify or easy to spot the difference and causes, it would be a much different world.