Washington Post: Steelers Draw Most Draft Value In Last 20 Years

[stillwright]

and what are you emotionally attached to? things attached to your skin color perhaps?


I am glad Tomlin finally won a playoff game after a long dry spell. But I think it was less hatred with fans, and more about what he wasn't accomplishing in the here and now with a top shelf QB. As this is a what have you done for me lately league, that sprinkles down to a fanbase that expects more than a one and done win every five years.

We can point to what Tomlin has accomplished and it has a lot to like. But mostly coming off a former coach's roster.

I think it is valid for fans to want more from Tomlin with what is on the roster, especially on O.

And yet a play off game can come down to say a "fumble" or say a dropped "interception".

 

[Steel Vanguard]

Different sport, but was Len Bias a good draft pick by the Celtics? Be was a phenomenal athlete. Unfortunately he didn't transition well to the pros. (That's an understatement.).

But just because he had the bad luck of being injured or (dead) doesn't necessarily mean be was a bad draft pick does it?

I mean Maurkice Pouncey may be a great center of be ever gets on the field again for more than 3 regular season games in a stretch. And Leveon Bell is certainly a great Running Back when not suspended or modeling the Duce Staley fashion line. So clearly they were GREAT draft picks.

It's not like they actually have to PLAY to be good for the team. We just have to KNOW that if they COULD play they be better than the opposing team's players and definitely better than the terrible backups we have to plug in because our amazing guys can't play, but could, but can't!

So much of the draft is pure luck.

Remember Yatil Green? The guy's triangle numbers were off the charts, he had hands like glue and no injury or off the field history.

Blows knee in camp his rookie year. Trains his *** off, comes back strong. Blows his OTHER KNEE the next year. He was a great pick by the Dolphins who didn't pan out for reasons that cannot be blamed on the Dolphins.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

I think it is valid for fans to want more from Tomlin with what is on the roster, especially on O.

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the internet. Ever.

Our offense was NEVER as productive under Cowher as it is under Tomlin. I defy you to post stats that say otherwise.

Our defense is no longer dominant, but we are building a great front 7 and just need to tighten down the secondary. That will happen.

 

[deljzc]

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the internet. Ever.

Our offense was NEVER as productive under Cowher as it is under Tomlin. I defy you to post stats that say otherwise.

Our defense is no longer dominant, but we are building a great front 7 and just need to tighten down the secondary. That will happen.

Boy, do you have short-term memory.

In Cowher's THREE years with a rookie/young Roethlisberger, the Steelers were 9th, 6th and 11th in points scored per possession.

When Tomlin took over and appointed (or approved) Arians... it sucked and got worse:

2007: 6th
2008: 18th
2009: 12th
2010: 10th
2011: 14th
2012: 19th
2013: 16th

Try to explain to me how an offense GETS WORSE while your hall-of-fame quarterback is supposed to be entering the prime of his career? Oh yeah.... Bruce Arians and Mike Tomlin, that's how.

You are just talking out your *** now trying to defend Tomlin from all criticism, when in fact, he deserves quite a lot for underperforming in about as many seasons here as he over performed. Are we in a potential upswing? Yes. The offense, now that Arians is gone, has gotten better and the drafting of talent into the offense has been much better. But the defense now is a huge question mark, something that rarely happened in the Cowher era and the drafting on that side of the ball has become very suspect. We will have to wait and see if that defense holds us back from or in the playoffs.

But to make the blanket statement the offense, with Roethlisberger, under the Tomlin regime is better than Cowher is utter nonsense and is not backed up at all by meaningful statistics. Unless you of course want to measure offense like Arians does and say because you have a 1000 yard rusher, 1000 yard receiver and a 4000 yard passer everything is great (while your points per possession, turnovers, sacks and red zone suck) then go right ahead. That wouldn't surprise me you thinking that with your feeble, ESPN and MSNBC driven brain....

 

[Steel Vanguard]

Boy, do you have short-term memory.

In Cowher's THREE years with a rookie/young Roethlisberger, the Steelers were 9th, 6th and 11th in points scored per possession.

When Tomlin took over and appointed (or approved) Arians... it sucked and got worse:

2007: 6th
2008: 18th
2009: 12th
2010: 10th
2011: 14th
2012: 19th
2013: 16th

Try to explain to me how an offense GETS WORSE while your hall-of-fame quarterback is supposed to be entering the prime of his career? Oh yeah.... Bruce Arians and Mike Tomlin, that's how.

You are just talking out your *** now trying to defend Tomlin from all criticism, when in fact, he deserves quite a lot for underperforming in about as many seasons here as he over performed. Are we in a potential upswing? Yes. The offense, now that Arians is gone, has gotten better and the drafting of talent into the offense has been much better. But the defense now is a huge question mark, something that rarely happened in the Cowher era and the drafting on that side of the ball has become very suspect. We will have to wait and see if that defense holds us back from or in the playoffs.

But to make the blanket statement the offense, with Roethlisberger, under the Tomlin regime is better than Cowher is utter nonsense and is not backed up at all by meaningful statistics. Unless you of course want to measure offense like Arians does and say because you have a 1000 yard rusher, 1000 yard receiver and a 4000 yard passer everything is great (while your points per possession, turnovers, sacks and red zone suck) then go right ahead. That wouldn't surprise me you thinking that with your feeble, ESPN and MSNBC driven brain....

You can't be serious. Point scored is the only measure of an offense?

Even then your own numbers betray you. You conveniently left off the last two seasons in which we were 7th and 4th overall. Ben has been injured, and we've had to replace departing receiving talent. Our offense is explosive now, in a way it never was under Cowher. But you intentionally ignore any and all success by Tomlin. If we fail, it's all Tomlin's fault. If we succeed, it's some coordinator's fault.

Like I said, hating Tomlin is your religion. You'll ignore the dinosaur bones, and the carbon dating, and even the nuclear half life of the sun (which is also measurable) to INSIST that the world was created in six days and Tomlin Sucks. Facts be damned.

 

[deljzc]

You can't be serious. Point scored is the only measure of an offense?

Even then your own numbers betray you. You conveniently left off the last two seasons in which we were 7th and 4th overall. Ben has been injured, and we've had to replace departing receiving talent. Our offense is explosive now, in a way it never was under Cowher. But you intentionally ignore any and all success by Tomlin. If we fail, it's all Tomlin's fault. If we succeed, it's some coordinator's fault.

Like I said, hating Tomlin is your religion. You'll ignore the dinosaur bones, and the carbon dating, and even the nuclear half life of the sun (which is also measurable) to INSIST that the world was created in six days and Tomlin Sucks. Facts be damned.

Points scored PER POSSESSION.

And the last two seasons (which I acknowledged are better with Haley) were 6th and 7th. respectively. Total points scored by a team includes defensive and special teams which are not a reflection of offensive ability.

What other method of measurement do you want? I mean, you get the ball, you have a possession, what do you do with it isn't important? This stat also eliminate drives that are kneel downs, end-of-half or end-of-game drives as well so those don't count.

You must not have been here in 2010 and 2011 when 90% of this board was frustrated with where our offense was going under Arians and many thought we fired him way too late. That decision is all on Tomlin.

If anything is religion, it's your blind infatuation with Tomlin to the point you deny the truth, overlook/ignore real statistics and won't acknowledge legitimate criticism of his work/performance.

That's the definition of blind religion.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

Points scored PER POSSESSION.

And the last two seasons (which I acknowledged are better with Haley) were 6th and 7th. respectively. Total points scored by a team includes defensive and special teams which are not a reflection of offensive ability.

What other method of measurement do you want? I mean, you get the ball, you have a possession, what do you do with it isn't important? This stat also eliminate drives that are kneel downs, end-of-half or end-of-game drives as well so those don't count.

You must not have been here in 2010 and 2011 when 90% of this board was frustrated with where our offense was going under Arians and many thought we fired him way too late. That decision is all on Tomlin.

If anything is religion, it's your blind infatuation with Tomlin to the point you deny the truth, overlook/ignore real statistics and won't acknowledge legitimate criticism of his work/performance.

That's the definition of blind religion.

Your argument is circular. It's Tomlin's fault that Arians sucked, but not his fault that Haley is good. Which is the point that I made earlier.

As we've revamped the roster the team has improved. You are, apparently, unhappy about this development. Please explain how the team's consistent improvement after turning over the roster is NOT Mike Tomlin's fault. And again, when teams lose what we lost they usually go sour. YOU must not have been here when Bill Cowher was going 6-10. TWICE. "But Tomlin won with Cowher's players." Ok. Cowher LOST with Cowher's players. Tomlin has NEVER LOST A SEASON. EVER.

I know you hate that Tomlin's a good coach. I can see how having a coach that wins while rebuilding could be REALLY frustrating for a fan. We could have Jeff Fisher instead, who hasn't done a damn thing with the Rams after running the Titans into the ground. Or would you rather have Marvin Lewis, who's whole team plays dirtier than Bill Romanowski. Or maybe Bellicheat.

Mike Tomlin will be in the Hall of Fame one day. And there's not one damn thing you can do about it.

 

[slashsteel]

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the internet. Ever.

Our offense was NEVER as productive under Cowher as it is under Tomlin. I defy you to post stats that say otherwise.

Our defense is no longer dominant, but we are building a great front 7 and just need to tighten down the secondary. That will happen.

How did Cowher come into the conversation? I was saying how good the O was, so good that fans want more ...comprehend much? If you are going to refer to something dumb at least try to grasp what is being said.

The point is and was with such a great O the fans are reasonable to expect more come the playoffs.

 

[stillwright]

Points scored PER POSSESSION.

And the last two seasons (which I acknowledged are better with Haley) were 6th and 7th. respectively. Total points scored by a team includes defensive and special teams which are not a reflection of offensive ability.

What other method of measurement do you want? I mean, you get the ball, you have a possession, what do you do with it isn't important? This stat also eliminate drives that are kneel downs, end-of-half or end-of-game drives as well so those don't count.

You must not have been here in 2010 and 2011 when 90% of this board was frustrated with where our offense was going under Arians and many thought we fired him way too late. That decision is all on Tomlin.

If anything is religion, it's your blind infatuation with Tomlin to the point you deny the truth, overlook/ignore real statistics and won't acknowledge legitimate criticism of his work/performance.

That's the definition of blind religion.

Not to get into all this again but I personally really question how much say Tomlin has had over choosing who his coordinator's have been over the years.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

How did Cowher come into the conversation? I was saying how good the O was, so good that fans want more ...comprehend much? If you are going to refer to something dumb at least try to grasp what is being said.

The point is and was with such a great O the fans are reasonable to expect more come the playoffs.

Clearly you phrased it poorly.

And my blaming you for that is tantamount to everyone blaming Tomlin for everything from Hurricane Sandy to Ebola.

 

[Steelerfan81]

Harris wasn't overpaid, why do you say that? He got backup money and can start if needed in two positions, that's value right there .

I agree Bell will demand big money and I don't think it would be a good investment (10M a year), the guy is one strike away from missing a season and unfortunately has suffered two ugly injuries. I'm all for keeping him at a decent contract but not top RB

Edit: my post has nothing to do with tomlins quality drafting

Bell was suspended for his arrest not for failing a drug test. He would have to fail three tests to get to a 4 game suspension.

 

[MTC]

This is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on the internet. Ever.

Our offense was NEVER as productive under Cowher as it is under Tomlin. I defy you to post stats that say otherwise.

Our defense is no longer dominant, but we are building a great front 7 and just need to tighten down the secondary. That will happen.

That's cause Cowher ran a different system than Tomlin. The Steelers under Tomlin are now starting to pan out cause they are getting smaller yet faster players. Its a different NFL than it was back in the early 2000's. Cowhers teams were to beat your *** on defense and control the ball on offense. To Cowhers defense he finally got his championship once he got his QB. Some fans dont like Tomlin cause with Ben, a franchise QB, we should have another super bowl. No we cant win it all every season, but Ben is playing his best ball right now and that window to make a push for another ring gets smaller each season

 

[deljzc]

Not to get into all this again but I personally really question how much say Tomlin has had over choosing who his coordinator's have been over the years.

Okay... then the other side of that argument is even more damning to Tomlin as a head coach.

Let's say the offensive coordinators (both Arians and Haley) were "assigned" to him. And let's them make the jump he is a very "hands off" coach when it comes to the offensive side of the ball, pretty much turning over all duties on offense to them.

If Tomlin then devoted 80% of his energy to the defensive side of the ball isn't it's erosion and decline than even MORE a critique on him as a coach, leader, developer, talent evaluator?

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Your argument is circular. It's Tomlin's fault that Arians sucked, but not his fault that Haley is good. Which is the point that I made earlier.

As we've revamped the roster the team has improved. You are, apparently, unhappy about this development. Please explain how the team's consistent improvement after turning over the roster is NOT Mike Tomlin's fault. And again, when teams lose what we lost they usually go sour. YOU must not have been here when Bill Cowher was going 6-10. TWICE. "But Tomlin won with Cowher's players." Ok. Cowher LOST with Cowher's players. Tomlin has NEVER LOST A SEASON. EVER.

I know you hate that Tomlin's a good coach. I can see how having a coach that wins while rebuilding could be REALLY frustrating for a fan. We could have Jeff Fisher instead, who hasn't done a damn thing with the Rams after running the Titans into the ground. Or would you rather have Marvin Lewis, who's whole team plays dirtier than Bill Romanowski. Or maybe Bellicheat.

Mike Tomlin will be in the Hall of Fame one day. And there's not one damn thing you can do about it.

You shouldn't mess around with concepts like circular reasoning, which you clearly don't understand.

 

[ark steel]

Okay... then the other side of that argument is even more damning to Tomlin as a head coach.

Let's say the offensive coordinators (both Arians and Haley) were "assigned" to him. And let's them make the jump he is a very "hands off" coach when it comes to the offensive side of the ball, pretty much turning over all duties on offense to them.

If Tomlin then devoted 80% of his energy to the defensive side of the ball isn't it's erosion and decline than even MORE a critique on him as a coach, leader, developer, talent evaluator?

Poor reasoning. If Tomlin isn't allowed to pick his own OC, what makes you think KS he picks his own DC? If one is the csae, the other is more likely. So, he can't pick his own OC or DC, but is allowed to make draft picks and run the D? Again, not a logical projection.

 

[Coryea]

That's why I said he will demand big money but should we pay it? I'm not sure RB should be a top contract in the roster, especially one with the problems I said before

I love Bell, but I'd say no, we averaged more points per game without Bell than we did with Bell last season. Unless we hit a homerun with our draft and find young guys that can play now on defense under their rookie contract. How can we afford to Pay Brown, Bell, Ben and keep any decent players on defense.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Save for the abomination of 2008, Tomlin and Colbert have drafted damn near pro-bowl level talent for the majority of their 8 year history.

This is an entirely rebuilt team, constructed almost ENTIRELY through the draft. With CHAMPIONSHIP aspirations.

The complaining and 'hating' is quite foolish (immature) at this point.

 

[deljzc]

Poor reasoning. If Tomlin isn't allowed to pick his own OC, what makes you think KS he picks his own DC? If one is the csae, the other is more likely. So, he can't pick his own OC or DC, but is allowed to make draft picks and run the D? Again, not a logical projection.

Then what does he do?

Is he responsible for anything?

 

[Superman]

look at the chart again.

Cowher made better choices LATE in the draft than he did early in the draft. you dont even need to look at who was drafted - just look at the color bar.
Tomlin, however, has made better choices EARLY than he has later.

 

[MTC]

Tomlin is an offense guy. I know the guy was a defensive coach for awhile. But he's built the Steelers on offensive fire power rather than defensive brute. Cowher was opposite. Again different schemes. I give Tomlin credit, in that his team loves to play for him. I think a lot of his picks will say that. But then again Cowhers guys had respect for him as well. The difference between Cowhers and Tomlins players is toughness compared to Tomlins play making speed

 

[deljzc]

Save for the abomination of 2008, Tomlin and Colbert have drafted damn near pro-bowl level talent for the majority of their 8 year history.

This is an entirely rebuilt team, constructed almost ENTIRELY through the draft. With CHAMPIONSHIP aspirations.

The complaining and 'hating' is quite foolish (immature) at this point.

I don't agree with this.

This is not about comparing eras. We've talked about this ad naseum. Cowher never had (until his final three seasons) a quarterback anywhere near as talented at Ben Roethlisberger. It's not even close.

And we've gone back in history and pretty much proven there was little, if any, opportunity to change his quarterback situation. Especially from 1994-2000. In 2000 (Colbert's first draft as being in charge with Cowher) there is some debate about maybe Pennington vs. Burress.

Tomlin has never had to deal with instability at the QB position. He's had one, hall-of-fame quarterback run his team for his entire 9 year tenure. His only worry at that position has been to decide who the backup would be.

By any definition, that makes both coaches have a completely different criteria of expectation and ability to succeed. Thus they are never going to be apples to apples in evaluating their accomplishments. You just can't ignore that one coach had Roethlisberger and one did not. The talent gap at that position is too great and too important.

Each coach must be evaluated completely differently.

Tomlin is a success, but his successes have come early in his career rather than late. Obviously it will be interesting to see what he does in the next 3-4 seasons with Roethlisberger now. And in many ways his ability to actually "rebuild" a championship caliber team will add to his legacy and definition as a head coach.

To me, Tomlin is in a group of coaches that were lucky enough to have franchise quarterbacks and ALL have perhaps lacked in the type of consistent playoff attendance and success you'd expect: Tom Coughlin (with E. Manning), Sean Payton (with Brees) and Mike McCarthy (with Rogers).

In each of those cases, you could argue they have under performed in a few too many seasons considering their quarterback advantage. But all (including Tomlin) are champions, so that success grants them huge leeway and job security. But each of their championships are fading fast into history (NYG in 2011, GB in 2010, NO in 2009 and Pittsburgh in 2008).

Which coaches' team is most successful maybe in the next couple of season might define their legacies (obviously Coughlin's is done). And maybe a new breed of coach/QB combinations will now define the next decade (Rivera/Newton, Carroll/Wilson).

The window of opportunity when you have the quarterback closes quickly, not just because your guy gets old, but because others are now added to the mix as legitimate threats.

 

[Coryea]

look at the chart again.

Cowher made better choices LATE in the draft than he did early in the draft. you dont even need to look at who was drafted - just look at the color bar.
Tomlin, however, has made better choices EARLY than he has later.

I don't know, look at some of the guys we took in the first two rounds under Cowher (Searcy, Kirkland, Brown, Faneca, Burress, Hampton, Bell, Troy, Ben, Heath, Holmes(not the greatest career, but super bowl MVP) There's 4 to 6 HOF'er there.
Tomlin first round and 2nd round picks since 2007 have been Timmons, Woodley, Mendy, Sweed, Hood, Pouncey, Worilds, Hayward, Gilbert, DeCastro, Adams, Shazier, Tuitt, Dupree, Golson.

 

[chipped ham]

I love Bell, but I'd say no, we averaged more points per game without Bell than we did with Bell last season. Unless we hit a homerun with our draft and find young guys that can play now on defense under their rookie contract. How can we afford to Pay Brown, Bell, Ben and keep any decent players on defense.

The only problem with this is that Bell played 4 games with Vick and Landry Jones as the QB, so that definitely affected the points per game output put up by this offense. Bell was on the field for what, a total of a half of game with Ben as the quarterback. I remember seeing a stat last year that Ben, Brown, Bell and Bryant all played like 30 minutes together all last season.

 

[ark steel]

Then what does he do?

Is he responsible for anything?

I'm not saying any of that is true, just that it is the only reasonably logical conclusion form the "he's no allowed to pick his own coordinators" statement.

Maybe he does nothing and ARII is a meddling owner who makes most of the decisions and we just don't know it. Could be several things that we don't know about.

 

[Superman]

I don't know, look at some of the guys we took in the first two rounds under Cowher (Searcy, Kirkland, Brown, Faneca, Burress, Hampton, Bell, Troy, Ben, Heath, Holmes(not the greatest career, but super bowl MVP) There's 4 to 6 HOF'er there.
Tomlin first round and 2nd round picks since 2007 have been Timmons, Woodley, Mendy, Sweed, Hood, Pouncey, Worilds, Hayward, Gilbert, DeCastro, Adams, Shazier, Tuitt, Dupree, Golson.

which wasnt my point at all. I mean, Cowher also had Jamain Stephens and Alonzo Jackson. Those are negated by Tomlin's Sweed and Hood picks.

so, again:
Cowher did better later in the draft than Tomlin does/has done. Both are pretty damn good, IMO.