Which coaching style works better?

[POP]

There are at least two different coaching philosophies/mng. styles.

One is the "mellow, everything is cool, no reason to panic" mode, which is what Tomlin and Ben seem to be in. This approach is relaxed and you don't get all stressed out or panic. That is the positive. Sometimes, if you get too stressed out, you can be prone to mistakes.

On the down side, sometimes you don't feel enough urgency in this mode. You become too chill and end up losing games to teams you are better than.

The other mode is the "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare." This mode was/is used by coaches such as Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson and Belichick. Probably Chuck Noll too. Critics of this mode would say you can burn a team out with this approach. The plus side is you rarely see this mode causing you to lose to inferior teams. As far as potentially burning teams out, the successful coaches in this mode when to lay off, often at times when they players least expect it. I was watching "A Football Life: Bill Parcells" and a former Giant player said, after he made a huge mistake, Tuna simply asked what happened, and he told him, and Parcells never mentioned it again.

To be honest, the high energy detailed approach is superior in my mind. Obviously Tomlin very much likes the chilled out vibe, but I think that is exactly why we lose to bad teams. A Jimmy Johnson type would never allow the team to overlook any team. It was his job to always have you prepared. Ben also likes to think everything is all chill, and that is also why this team digs itself a hole before it finally gets focused. They say there is more than one way to skin a cat, so that could apply here I guess.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

There are at least two different coaching philosophies/mng. styles.

One is the "mellow, everything is cool, no reason to panic" mode, which is what Tomlin and Ben seem to be in. This approach is relaxed and you don't get all stressed out or panic. That is the positive. Sometimes, if you get too stressed out, you can be prone to mistakes.

On the down side, sometimes you don't feel enough urgency in this mode. You become too chill and end up losing games to teams you are better than.

The other mode is the "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare." This mode was/is used by coaches such as Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson and Belichick. Probably Chuck Noll too. Critics of this mode would say you can burn a team out with this approach. The plus side is you rarely see this mode causing you to lose to inferior teams. As far as potentially burning teams out, the successful coaches in this mode when to lay off, often at times when they players least expect it. I was watching "A Football Life: Bill Parcells" and a former Giant player said, after he made a huge mistake, Tuna simply asked what happened, and he told him, and Parcells never mentioned it again.

To be honest, the high energy detailed approach is superior in my mind. Obviously Tomlin very much likes the chilled out vibe, but I think that is exactly why we lose to bad teams. A Jimmy Johnson type would never allow the team to overlook any team. It was his job to always have you prepared. Ben also likes to think everything is all chill, and that is also why this team digs itself a hole before it finally gets focused. They say there is more than one way to skin a cat, so that could apply here I guess.

My question to you is- what makes you believe that Tomlin isnt a "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare" type of coach?

Are you judging him b/c of his sideline demeanor? Because I would argue that looks Bill Belichick far more laid back than Tomlin on game day.

The Steelers are also said to have one of the hardest hitting training camps. So again, what makes you think that are coaching staff is 'laid back'?

 

[antdrewjosh]

My question to you is- what makes you believe that Tomlin isnt a "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare" type of coach?

Are you judging him b/c of his sideline demeanor? Because I would argue that looks Bill Belichick far more laid back than Tomlin on game day.

The Steelers are also said to have one of the hardest hitting training camps. So again, what makes you think that are coaching staff is 'laid back'?

What are you talking about BigApple you know damn well all Tomlin does all week is try on different kind of shades to see which to wear on Sunday so he can look cool

 

[Coach]

There are at least two different coaching philosophies/mng. styles.

One is the "mellow, everything is cool, no reason to panic" mode, which is what Tomlin and Ben seem to be in. This approach is relaxed and you don't get all stressed out or panic. That is the positive. Sometimes, if you get too stressed out, you can be prone to mistakes.

On the down side, sometimes you don't feel enough urgency in this mode. You become too chill and end up losing games to teams you are better than.

The other mode is the "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare." This mode was/is used by coaches such as Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson and Belichick. Probably Chuck Noll too. Critics of this mode would say you can burn a team out with this approach. The plus side is you rarely see this mode causing you to lose to inferior teams. As far as potentially burning teams out, the successful coaches in this mode when to lay off, often at times when they players least expect it. I was watching "A Football Life: Bill Parcells" and a former Giant player said, after he made a huge mistake, Tuna simply asked what happened, and he told him, and Parcells never mentioned it again.

To be honest, the high energy detailed approach is superior in my mind. Obviously Tomlin very much likes the chilled out vibe, but I think that is exactly why we lose to bad teams. A Jimmy Johnson type would never allow the team to overlook any team. It was his job to always have you prepared. Ben also likes to think everything is all chill, and that is also why this team digs itself a hole before it finally gets focused. They say there is more than one way to skin a cat, so that could apply here I guess.

A good coach understands his team's ability, understands which players buy in and which do not, and set expectations and keeps on the players to meet the expectations of good advice, practice and when needed discipline.

The mellow everything is cool types aren't as successful, but sometimes you have to present it that way if you think you're doing the right the right track, but just didn't get the right breaks do to penalties, poor officiating, etc. I agree with you, you're prone to a letdown with the mellow players type of coach.

I'll take the coach that works for his team hard. The best were Lombardi, Landry, Noll, Johnson, Parcells, those types who worked their men hard and commanded tremendous respect. Smart guys who knew what it takes to win, that offered leadership when needed.

Tomlin is more of a mellow type but breaks and becomes a hard *** when things aren't going his way which can send a mixed message. An example was his silly locker room games, which only the vets can play, then he pulls. Other examples of successful mellow coaches are Switzer, and Dungy, but they really won with superior talent and having the right veteran leadership more so that building up and molding their own team.

There is actually a third type of coach, a genius like Bill Walsh who's way ahead of his counterparts coaching, and as such can afford to be more relaxed in approach because it's rather mental.

 

[Coach]

My question to you is- what makes you believe that Tomlin isnt a "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare" type of coach?

Are you judging him b/c of his sideline demeanor? Because I would argue that looks Bill Belichick far more laid back than Tomlin on game day.

The Steelers are also said to have one of the hardest hitting training camps. So again, what makes you think that are coaching staff is 'laid back'?

Tomlin seems to be more of a delegator type on game day. The OC and DC call the plays. The best coaches take one side of the ball and enhance it.

I hardly ever Tomlin talking into the headset, not even on critical moments of the game. He doesn't hold play charts either and doesn't offer sideline coaching say like Cowher used to.

So what does Tomlin do?

Tomlin picks who makes the team, who starts, and who plays in which package, the critical 3rd, and 4th down calls on when to go for it, or when to kick.

To quote him, " I'm a degenerate gambler, " and his decisions often are wrong in hindsight when the game is close. Clock management time out is also not a forte. I think we should hire time out coach, and I'm serious when I say this.

The red flag challenges come from the booth, and they tell him when to throw it.

 

[antdrewjosh]

See Apple all he does is try on shades and look good on Sundays and you don't even have to watch the games to know that

 

[antdrewjosh]

Except when something goes wrong then of course it was Tomlin who had every part of the decision and only Tomlin

 

[Litos]

that's why he uses the cool shades, to watch hot chicks in the stands instead of the game

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

See Apple all he does is try on shades and look good on Sundays and you don't even have to watch the games to know that

I shoulda known that this was just going to be another Fire Tomlin' thread.

But I give POP credit for tricking us with a 'creative' title.

 

[antdrewjosh]

I shoulda known that this was just going to be another Fire Tomlin' thread.

But I give POP credit for tricking us with a 'creative' title.

Exactly...and you know better

 

[wig]

Tomlin seems to be more of a delegator type on game day. The OC and DC call the plays. The best coaches take one side of the ball and enhance it.

I hardly ever Tomlin talking into the headset, not even on critical moments of the game. He doesn't hold play charts either and doesn't offer sideline coaching say like Cowher used to.

So what does Tomlin do?

Tomlin picks who makes the team, who starts, and who plays in which package, the critical 3rd, and 4th down calls on when to go for it, or when to kick.

Under these circumstances, it truly is hard to blame Tomlin for a loss like last weeks.

Clearly the OC and DC bear the weight of the loss if Tomlin truly did nothing more than make determinations on "critical" 3rd and 4th downs. (There weren't that many of those.) and when to go for it or kick.

So - Seemingly Tomlin is doing pretty darn well. His "starters" particularly on defense were mangled during the game and the Steelers were left with backups all over the field. In fact, based on the criteria specified, Tomlin should not have said the 11 guys on the field didn't get it done, he should have said the OC and DC didn't call decent plays for the guys we had out there and we didn't have enough critical 3rd and 4th downs for me to be a relevant factor.

In my opinion (humble as it is,) Tomlin and the other coords are a bit weak at overall game-planning and definitely at in-game adjustments. For whatever reason, I rarely feel as though a halftime adjustment is going to be made that will significantly change the tack of the game.

Challenges and timeouts of course have been discussed endlessly. I believe Tomlin does have a good bead on the players and what motivates them. I think he manages them well. However when the other team has a better plan and catches the Steelers off-guard, I feel as though it is up to the significant talent excess of our primary skill positions to make up for the weaknesses going in to the game and create positivity and splash plays with above the neck play if you will.

 

[SteelerSask2]

Two different issuE's. Detail and preperation are not the same as players coach vs. Disciplinarian. Which is better. Depends on the group. Certainly both have done well in the past. I think Belichick does well because he plays chess against checkers players. Not sure how, but clearly he does.

 

[obxsteeler]

There are at least two different coaching philosophies/mng. styles.

One is the "mellow, everything is cool, no reason to panic" mode, which is what Tomlin and Ben seem to be in. This approach is relaxed and you don't get all stressed out or panic. That is the positive. Sometimes, if you get too stressed out, you can be prone to mistakes.

On the down side, sometimes you don't feel enough urgency in this mode. You become too chill and end up losing games to teams you are better than.

The other mode is the "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare." This mode was/is used by coaches such as Bill Parcells, Jimmy Johnson and Belichick. Probably Chuck Noll too. Critics of this mode would say you can burn a team out with this approach. The plus side is you rarely see this mode causing you to lose to inferior teams. As far as potentially burning teams out, the successful coaches in this mode when to lay off, often at times when they players least expect it. I was watching "A Football Life: Bill Parcells" and a former Giant player said, after he made a huge mistake, Tuna simply asked what happened, and he told him, and Parcells never mentioned it again.

To be honest, the high energy detailed approach is superior in my mind. Obviously Tomlin very much likes the chilled out vibe, but I think that is exactly why we lose to bad teams. A Jimmy Johnson type would never allow the team to overlook any team. It was his job to always have you prepared. Ben also likes to think everything is all chill, and that is also why this team digs itself a hole before it finally gets focused. They say there is more than one way to skin a cat, so that could apply here I guess.

Tomlin's style has won him 100 games and a SB in 9 years which ain't bad. And if we only lose to bad teams our record against good teams must be superb.

 

[ark steel]

Two different issuE's. Detail and preperation are not the same as players coach vs. Disciplinarian. Which is better. Depends on the group. Certainly both have done well in the past. I think Belichick does well because he plays chess against checkers players. Not sure how, but clearly he does.

by cheating?

 

[Stryker]

Bellycheck is the most nonplussed coach I've ever seen on a sideline. Perhaps it's because he already knows what the other team is planning to do?

 

[antdrewjosh]

Bellycheck is the most nonplussed coach I've ever seen on a sideline. Perhaps it's because he already knows what the other team is planning to do?

Exactly what's there to be stressed about when you and your team knows the play that's coming..

 

[POP]

My question to you is- what makes you believe that Tomlin isnt a "grind out every detail, push, push, push, prepare, prepare, prepare" type of coach?

Are you judging him b/c of his sideline demeanor? Because I would argue that looks Bill Belichick far more laid back than Tomlin on game day.

The Steelers are also said to have one of the hardest hitting training camps. So again, what makes you think that are coaching staff is 'laid back'?

That's a completely fair question.

For one, MT is always referred to as a "player's coach." So, what does that mean? Generally, that means they are less hard ***. That is a large part of what it means. He let's the atmosphere be mostly chill. I am not saying he never gives anyone a stern talking, but generally, it seems he does not. Parcells said, when he had a first crappy year with the Giants, and he was on the hot seat and likely gone after year two, that "I told my coaches. If I am going to get fired I am going down doing it my way. The players are not going to like me, I am gonna be a huge pain in the ***, but that's just how it's gonna have to be." Of course we all know what happened after that. 2 SB rings.

With MT, he seems to want to be bros with the players more than a task master. Remember when his supposed big bad move was to take ping pong and air hockey privileges from the younger players as his heavy handed punishment for sucking? And then, is an unprecedented, Machiavellian move, he took ping pong privileges from EVERYONE! That was so hardcore.

Of course, there are many more examples, but that's a start.

 

[antdrewjosh]

That's a completely fair question.

For one, MT is always referred to as a "player's coach." So, what does that mean? Generally, that means they are less hard ***. That is a large part of what it means. He let's the atmosphere be mostly chill. I am not saying he never gives anyone a stern talking, but generally, it seems he does not. Parcells said, when he had a first crappy year with the Giants, and he was on the hot seat and likely gone after year two, that "I told my coaches. If I am going to get fired I am going down doing it my way. The players are not going to like me, I am gonna be a huge pain in the ***, but that's just how it's gonna have to be." Of course we all know what happened after that. 2 SB rings.

With MT, he seems to want to be bros with the players more than a task master. Remember when his supposed big bad move was to take ping pong and air hockey privileges from the younger players as his heavy handed punishment for sucking? And then, is an unprecedented, Machiavellian move, he took ping pong privileges from EVERYONE! That was so hardcore.

Of course, there are many more examples, but that's a start.

The players deserve more blame than Mike Tomlin for their off-the-field problems

Ron Cook: It's Tomlin over Cowher as better Steelers disciplinarian
August 9, 2016 12:21 AM
By Ron Cook / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Bill Cowher or Mike Tomlin? I’m giving Tomlin a slight edge as coach, although Cowher was good. I’m also giving Tomlin an edge as a disciplinarian. I say that knowing the Steelers will play this season without suspended Martavis Bryant and probably the first four games without suspended Le’Veon Bell.

No, I am not crazy.

There’s a growing perception in town that the Steelers have gone to pot since Tomlin took over as coach 10 years ago. Among the players who have joined the team during his watch are Bryant, LeGarrette Blount, Chris Rainey, Mike Adams and Alameda Ta’amu. All had character issues in college. Only Bryant remains under contract.

This is not just a Steelers problem. It happens all over the NFL. Some teams are worse than others, the Dallas Cowboys the worst of all. In 2012, owner Jerry Jones hired a babysitter to get star wide receiver Dez Bryant to and from practice and to keep him out of trouble at night. Imagine that. A grown man needing a babysitter. The Cowboys signed Greg Hardy last season despite his involvement in a domestic-abuse incident. They will open this season with three players on the suspended list because of substance-abuse violations. They must be so proud in Dallas.

Like all NFL teams, the Steelers are under great pressure to win. Maybe that’s why so many organizations have lowered their standard for bringing in quality people despite spending more time and money on background checks. There are no secrets anymore, no surprises when a player with a troubled past has more problems. The Steelers knew, for instance, Bryant had a questionable background at Clemson and that he slipped to the fourth round of the 2014 NFL draft for a reason. They took him, anyway. Bryant, a terrific talent, helped the team make the playoffs two years in a row but has failed or missed multiple drug tests. He was suspended for four games last season and is out this season. It seems unlikely he will play for the Steelers again. How can they count on him?

If you want to argue Tomlin deserves blame for some of the players the Steelers have brought in, I will listen. He has a big say, along with general manager Kevin Colbert, in all player-personnel moves. But I’m not going to hold Tomlin or any coach responsible for a player’s behavior once he is on the team. Is Baltimore’s John Harbaugh responsible for Ray Rice? New England’s Bill Belichick for Aaron Hernandez? Pick any of the 12 coaches the Cleveland Browns have had the past two seasons for Johnny Manziel? That’s ridiculous. The player is responsible for his conduct. He’s no longer a young, immature college kid. He’s supposed to be a professional. Is it too much to expect him to act like one?

Cowher was not immune to this sort of thing. The Steelers used their No. 1 pick in 2006 — Cowher’s final draft in a 15-year run as coach — to take Santonio Holmes despite character issues he had at Ohio State. Holmes was lowB repuS XLIII MVP after leading the Steelers past the Arizona Cardinals in Tomlin’s second season but eventually ran out of chances with Tomlin and management because of a series of off-the-field incidents. He basically was given away in a trade in 2010.

Tomlin has a reputation of being a players coach and always ranks high in those surveys that ask players for whom they would like to play. That players-coach thing is not necessarily a compliment. Dan Bylsma didn’t like it when he was Penguins coach because he believed it carried a connotation that the coach is soft. I’m guessing Tomlin doesn’t like it, either.

Getting rid of Holmes was one instance when Tomlin showed he was anything but soft. Another happened during the 2014 season when he released Blount the day after Blount walked off the field early in a game at Nashville.

But Tomlin never will be regarded as a tough coach the way Cowher was. Sadly, part of it is racial. Another part is Tomlin didn’t discipline Bell and Blount after they were arrested on marijuana charges on their way to the team flight for a 2014 preseason game in Philadelphia. Tomlin played the two running backs in that game — “I didn’t view it as a punishment to send them home,” he said — and left the discipline up to the NFL office. That’s what most coaches do. A third part is Tomlin doesn’t have the glare or big jaw that Cowher had and doesn’t send spit flying in sideline rants with players the way Cowher did. Fans loved that Cowher often looked like a maniac.

But Cowher always wasn’t the iron-fisted disciplinarian. Remember what Jerome Bettis said after Plaxico Burress signed with the New York Giants in 2005? “I know [Burress] is not a stickler for the rules and [Giants coach Tom] Coughlin is all about rules … coach Cowher allowed us a lot of flexibility. He never fined us for anything. You came late, you never got fined. You never got reprimanded for anything.”

Burress went on to score the winning touchdown in lowB repuS XLII as the Giants denied the New England Patriots a perfect season. He also spent time in prison after taking a gun into a nightclub and shooting himself in the leg.

You have to blame Coughlin for the shooting, right?

http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/...as-better-disciplinarian/stories/201608090015

 

[SteelerSask2]

by cheating?

They won 3 games with a second and third string QB. Two of the games were against known division contenders. I don't like him either but chalking it all up to cheating is laughable.

 

[POP]

Tomlin seems to be more of a delegator type on game day. The OC and DC call the plays. The best coaches take one side of the ball and enhance it.

I hardly ever Tomlin talking into the headset, not even on critical moments of the game. He doesn't hold play charts either and doesn't offer sideline coaching say like Cowher used to.

So what does Tomlin do?

Tomlin picks who makes the team, who starts, and who plays in which package, the critical 3rd, and 4th down calls on when to go for it, or when to kick.

To quote him, " I'm a degenerate gambler, " and his decisions often are wrong in hindsight when the game is close. Clock management time out is also not a forte. I think we should hire time out coach, and I'm serious when I say this.

The red flag challenges come from the booth, and they tell him when to throw it.

This really was NOT a camouflaged way to start a "fire Tomlin" thread, as some of you have stated. It is a real discussion, without some hidden agenda.

I maintain that the better coaching style is one where you actually _coach_. You see other coaches constantly talking into their headsets and/or keeping contact with players and other coaches throughout the game. I just don't see MT doing that, and I do wonder what "help" he is giving during games. Hoody is always, always checking in to, my guess is, asst. coaches. He is rarely demonstrative but I do not find fault in that. Chuck Noll was the same way and he was obviously a great coach.

 

[POP]

They won 3 games with a second and third string QB. Two of the games were against known division contenders. I don't like him either but chalking it all up to cheating is laughable.

It's so laughable I refuse to even respond to that mentally retarded assertion.

 

[POP]

Except when something goes wrong then of course it was Tomlin who had every part of the decision and only Tomlin

Actually, that is not true. I see most criticisms of MT are for calls that we know he made, such as bizarre going for two when there is no logic to it, and not going for a 4th down when a FG does nothing to help steal a win, that kind of thing. He is making those calls and we all know he is.

But I digress. The topic is on what coaching style is superior.

Have you ever seen clips of Parcells, Hoody or Jimmy Johnson coaching? They know every facet of every position on the field. It is quite amazing. Now that is coaching. Does MT ever give tipis to players about playing, like actual coaching?

 

[stillwright]

This really was NOT a camouflaged way to start a "fire Tomlin" thread, as some of you have stated. It is a real discussion, without some hidden agenda.

I maintain that the better coaching style is one where you actually _coach_. You see other coaches constantly talking into their headsets and/or keeping contact with players and other coaches throughout the game. I just don't see MT doing that, and I do wonder what "help" he is giving during games. Hoody is always, always checking in to, my guess is, asst. coaches. He is rarely demonstrative but I do not find fault in that. Chuck Noll was the same way and he was obviously a great coach.

Except for the fact ALL of this stuff has been thrown around in here a couple of 100 times already over the course of Tomlin's tenure here. Besides that you are right.

 

[POP]

Except for the fact ALL of this stuff has been thrown around in here a couple of 100 times already over the course of Tomlin's tenure here. Besides that you are right.

That, in itself, doesn't make it a conversation not worth discussing.

 

[stillwright]

That, in itself, doesn't make it a conversation not worth discussing.

Don't say this was not meant as another Tomlin hate thread. That is my only point. Call it for what it is. Simple really.