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The Coronavirus thread

And again you continue to obstinate. The only purpose of masks and shut downs is to slow the spread of the virus, and even if we had shutdown completely since March, it would still be lingering. You do realize that it's a virus, don't you?

A better course of thought might be coming up with ways to eradicate the virus, because well, it is a virus.

It's incredible, that we're on page 488 of this thread (think about that for a minute) with probably hundreds of posts/graphs/data and people still think a cloth mask & locking ourselves in the basement is going to protect us from a highly contagious virus.

Before this whole thing became overtly political, listen to what Dr. Fauci said on March 8th 2020 re: the efficacy of masks against a virus like this.
 
I know of a guy that re-tested positive 4 times before getting a negative result. Each of those 4x was treated like a new case, according to Allegheny County. Think about that when you look at the new case numbers. Compound that with the ease in getting tested now, it is no wonder the uptick. Number of cases means squat. It is the number of hospitalizations that we need to concern ourselves with.
 
I know of a guy that re-tested positive 4 times before getting a negative result. Each of those 4x was treated like a new case, according to Allegheny County. Think about that when you look at the new case numbers. Compound that with the ease in getting tested now, it is no wonder the uptick. Number of cases means squat. It is the number of hospitalizations that we need to concern ourselves with.

Yeah, that is the whole "other" ball of wax. Cases, hospitalizations, deaths are all skewed data. Most likely over-inflated.

We know deaths that weren't due to COVID were classified as COVID. What %?
We know cases are over inflated. My one son took 5 total tests. 3 were positive. Guaranteed all 3 were counted as "different positives." What % nationwide is like that?
When states and hospitals make $$ per COVID case, how many were "fudged" to obtain funding?
What % of hospitalizations are really due to COVID?
Why are flu cases reported so drastically low?

I don't know that we will EVER get a real count, but realistically it is all overblown.
 
The problem with masks is they don't work. See below.



China isn't telling us everything. Shocking to see Liberals believe they are. Liberals got themselves some real new love for the Commies.

China has never given us accurate reporting or data. Hidden videos smuggled out of the country showed body bags stacked 3 and 4 feet high on sidewalks outside hospitals. Anyone saying they know anything about what is going on in China is a fool for even speaking about it. We don't know. They tell us they have it under control.

Yeah, ok.

Regarding PA, I'm not saying these were in place the whole time. And they weren't 100% followed enforced. But the mandates for masks got more severe as the year progressed and their lock downs have been more severe than other states - even closing liquor stores at one point.

The fact you want to keep dismissing is the obvious - IF the masks and lockdowns had any impact, we would see a measurable result. PA has as many cases now as they did in April. Spin all you want man...there's no dancing away from that fact. ZERO impact. Even if you contend the drop of wave 1 was due to masks/mandates (which was far more likely the virus taking it's normal bell curve pattern), why is there an uptick now? Hmmm? Masks don't work maybe? Lockdowns aren't working? Hmmm.

Suggest you also look back at this post and the one after. Masks aren't having a measurable impact anywhere. PA looks just like the rest of them. https://www.steelernationforums.com...navirus-thread&p=760151&viewfull=1#post760151

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You both need to follow the science (as Joe Biden says). This is PROVEN but MSM won't report it. Cloth masks and regular surgical masks ONLY stop the spread of 3% of COVID particles and those are the large droplets. 97% passes through. COVID is spread by aerosols.. It passes right through our masks. See the dozens of links in the article posted on the prior page.

A study of health-care workers in more than 1,600 hospitals showed that cloth masks only filtered out 3 percent of particles. An article in the New England Journal of Medicine stated, “[W]earing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection” and that “[T]he desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.”

THAT is why the mask mandates don't work. Because the masks don't work. You can gyrate and genuflect all you want.

There is literally no locale I've seen where there is measurable data to show when mask mandates were implemented and we saw measurable positive results. Because...masks...don't work.

It's a virus. It will take its bell curve course - mask mandates and lock downs be damned.

This is from the new England journal of medicine 2 days ago

"Increasing evidence suggests that population-wide facial masking might benefit both components of the response."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913
 
Not sure how many times I'll have to post this, but here goes again (from the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons):

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

• Conclusion: Wearing masks (other than N95) will not be effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, whether worn as source control or as PPE.

• N95s protect health care workers, but are not recommended for source control transmission.

• Surgical masks are better than cloth but not very efficient at preventing emissions from infected patients. Cloth masks must be 3 layers, plus adding static electricity by rubbing with rubber glove.

• The cloth that serves as the filtration for the mask is meant to trap particles being breathed in and out. But it also serves as a barrier to air movement because it forces the air to take the path of least resistance, resulting in the aerosols going in and out at the sides of the mask.
 
This is from the new England journal of medicine 2 days ago

"Increasing evidence suggests that population-wide facial masking might benefit both components of the response."

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2026913

Also from the NEJM: An article in the New England Journal of Medicine stated, “[W]earing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection” and that “[T]he desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.”

Seems the NEJM is just like Fauci - all over the map.

The Cleveland Clinic and many others have shown the size of COVID virus transmission airborne particles. Aerosols. Fact: Cloth and surgical masks DO NOT prevent the movement of aerosols at all.

If a cloth or surgical mask will stop 3% of COVID airborne particles - cough-driven droplets - then the NEJM is right. Their statement says "might" benefit both components of the response. It's like saying wearing a helmet might protect me in a motorcycle crash.

If you read the article you posted, it says "potential" in the title and at the end they state this is a hypothesis.

Numerous studies have shown the following and you don't need to be a doctor to apply logic:
1) COVID is spread via aerosols and major droplets from coughs/sneezes and is airborne
2) Cloth and surgical masks DO NOT stop the spread of aerosols at all. They pass right through.

Logical result: Cloth/surgical masks aren't doing much at all - 3% prevention by most counts.
 
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Anyone who believes China is even being slightly honest about their numbers is totally off their rocker.
A quick Google will bring up a boatload of articles with good estimates of what their numbers should REALLY look like compared to the rest of the world, and it's alarming.
 
Also from the NEJM: An article in the New England Journal of Medicine stated, “[W]earing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection” and that “[T]he desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.”

Seems the NEJM is just like Fauci - all over the map.

The Cleveland Clinic and many others have shown the size of COVID virus transmission airborne particles. Aerosols. Fact: Cloth and surgical masks DO NOT prevent the movement of aerosols at all.

If a cloth or surgical mask will stop 3% of COVID airborne particles - cough-driven droplets - then the NEJM is right. Their statement says "might" benefit both components of the response. It's like saying wearing a helmet might protect me in a motorcycle crash.

If you read the article you posted, it says "potential" in the title and at the end they state this is a hypothesis.

Numerous studies have shown the following and you don't need to be a doctor to apply logic:
1) COVID is spread via aerosols and major droplets from coughs/sneezes and is airborne
2) Cloth and surgical masks DO NOT stop the spread of aerosols at all. They pass right through.

Logical result: Cloth/surgical masks aren't doing much at all - 3% prevention by most counts.

This post should be stickied somewhere.

And watch the video below:

https://videopress.com/v/4egEyh2b
 
Not sure how many times I'll have to post this, but here goes again (from the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons):

https://aapsonline.org/mask-facts/

• Conclusion: Wearing masks (other than N95) will not be effective at preventing SARS-CoV-2 transmission, whether worn as source control or as PPE.

• N95s protect health care workers, but are not recommended for source control transmission.

• Surgical masks are better than cloth but not very efficient at preventing emissions from infected patients. Cloth masks must be 3 layers, plus adding static electricity by rubbing with rubber glove.

• The cloth that serves as the filtration for the mask is meant to trap particles being breathed in and out. But it also serves as a barrier to air movement because it forces the air to take the path of least resistance, resulting in the aerosols going in and out at the sides of the mask.

Masks are seen as a mass Reassurance Ritual against an unseen enemy to convey the feeling (liberals live in their feelings) that we are all "doing something" against a deadly contagion (if we choose to allow that this is simply a virus and not larger agenda). The liberal mind has now enthroned mask mandates as duty and virtue as well.

As a result, they won't be swayed by facts as the they've bought into the Reassurance Ritual as sacred canon at this point every bit as much as climate change.
 
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Masks are seen as a mass Reassurance Ritual against an unseen enemy to convey the feeling (liberals live in their feelings) that we are all "doing something" against a deadly contagion (if we choose to allow that this is simply a virus and not larger agenda). The liberal mind has now enthroned mask mandates as duty and virtue as well.

As a result, they won't be swayed by facts as the they've bought into the Reassurance Ritual as sacred canon at this point every bit as much as climate change.

IonSUcy.png


This man was obviously ahead of his time as you look at the date.
 
IonSUcy.png


This man was obviously ahead of his time as you look at the date.

What a great insight! I still will never get my mind around how they were able to induce a toilet paper panic, but that tells us/them all we/they need to know about how easily they are able to manipulate the masses.
 
What a great insight! I still will never get my mind around how they were able to induce a toilet paper panic, but that tells us/them all we/they need to know about how easily they are able to manipulate the masses.

Easily done. If its on the radio/tv/internet, it must be real...

 
There is an increasing belief that lack of Vitamin D3 in the body can lead to more severe cases of Covid 19. Higher levels of D3 can also act as a prophylactic to infections. With the change in seasons, we will be seeing less sunlight, which provides natural Vitamin D levels.

It is over the counter, cheap, and readily available. No reason not to use as a supplement.
 
There is an increasing belief that lack of Vitamin D3 in the body can lead to more severe cases of Covid 19. Higher levels of D3 can also act as a prophylactic to infections. With the change in seasons, we will be seeing less sunlight, which provides natural Vitamin D levels.

It is over the counter, cheap, and readily available. No reason not to use as a supplement.

Started taking it the moment you clowns started extolling the benefits of it last week.
 
Care to share how you look at those graphs while simultaneously saying in PA masks and lock downs worked?

The same way I look at graphs of flu cases in the weeks and months after people receive the flu vaccine.

The same way I look at increased traffic deaths after mass seatbelt wearing on holiday weekends.

Your painfully simplistic reasoning would argue that the flu vaccine and seatbelts obviously don’t work.

The Covid death rate for ND in the past week is now 7 times than that of PA. All other things being equal, ND should have a very low death rate given its low population density. Again, if it’s not a lack of restrictions, how do you explain ND leading the country in deaths/pop?
 
Just cracks me up when Liberals run around spewing facts that aren't so.

Our obesity rate is 36.2%
Germany's is 22.3%

A 47.5% difference, or a 62.6% increase.

Over 1/3 of our population is obese. Nearly 25% of Germany's is. What is the exponential factor when you include that 62.6% increase or 47.5% difference? Morbidly obese COVID-19 patients are 60% more likely to die or require intubation, compared with people of normal weight, researchers found. Patients who were mildly obese were 10% more likely to die or need a breathing machine, while those who were moderately obese were 30% more likely, according to the study.

So when you factor in that we are 47.5% higher in difference in obesity, then extrapolate that by 60% more likely to die, 30% more likely to die or 10% more likely to die against the additional numbers of obese people we have you will see an exponential increase in deaths. Make sense??

Obesity is far more deadly regarding COVID than diabetes. All one needs to do is look at the chart. Take out the diabetes column if you prefer. The countries with the lowest obesity rates have the lowest deaths per million. Correlated? Yeah to much of a degree.

122592427_10221406344520574_1965623257582614354_n.jpg


I'm still waiting for you to expand on what these countries did that was so effective, and not anecdotes. What measures did Norway or Vietnam take that we did not that impacted the curve? I've already shown you, there's no evidence masks and lockdowns had an effect. So I'm curious...what brilliant policies did they implement we did not that makes this difference?

Or...could...it...just...be...we are one of the most unhealthy nations on the planet?

I thought it was primarily old people that die of Covid? So you’re arguing that obesity and diabetes are the difference between the US and the countries that had their **** together? Or obese, diabetic octogenarians are the ones dying? Because obese diabetics commonly make it to see 80?
 
The Covid death rate for ND in the past week is now 7 times than that of PA. All other things being equal, ND should have a very low death rate given its low population density. Again, if it’s not a lack of restrictions, how do you explain ND leading the country in deaths/pop?

North Dakota's overall deaths per 100,000 are at 70. PA's at 69. What is happening in any one particular week is completely irrelevant. The virus arrived there much later. Compare the death rate in ND this week with PA's death rate in its worst week. Virus gonna virus.

Because ND's population is so small, every individual case is going to bump its per capita death rate far higher than in a more populous state. That's how math works. The infections are concentrated in North Dakota's most populous areas, just like they are in every other state.
 
Every place that locked down and opened back up again is seeing surges in infections. Again, virus gonna virus. So the question is how long are you willing to put life and livelihoods on hold. How many businesses are you willing to permanently shutter, how many people are you willing to permanently impoverish, for a virus that kills less than 1% of those it infects and generally only the most frail and ill of those.
 
We are protecting the vulnerable, death rates are dropping, treatment is improving, hospitals are NOT becoming overwhelmed. This is no longer a dire emergency, but we are still giving governors the power to keep kids out of school, to keep businesses from opening, to even tell us how many people we are allowed to have in our own homes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/10/30/nyregion/new-york-city-coronavirus-hospitals.html

At one New York City hospital, coronavirus patients began arriving a few weeks ago from Brooklyn neighborhoods and nearby suburbs that have seen a resurgence of the virus.

But in contrast to March and April — when so many seriously ill New Yorkers flooded into the hospital, Mount Sinai, that a field hospital was erected nearby in Central Park — patients were showing up in smaller numbers and were often less sick. After treatment, they were going home.

“There is a much lower recent mortality rate,” said Dr. David Reich, the president of the hospital, despite the fact that the number of people being treated for Covid-19 had grown from the single digits in August to 56 on a given day last week.

As virus cases surge nationwide, hospitals around the country, particularly in rural areas of the Midwest, are seeing their largest uptick yet of critically ill patients. Some have begun to fill to capacity — an autumn wave of the pandemic that appears to get worse each day.


In New York City, hospitalizations have been slowly but steadily rising, eliciting painful memories of the surge of infections in the spring that killed more than 20,000 people. But the terrifying inundation of patients that overwhelmed hospitals then has yet to materialize again in New York City, even as cases rise.

Broad acceptance of face masks and social distancing has helped curb the spread of the virus, public health experts said. Fewer cases means fewer patients, allowing hospitals to better care for those who do come through the door.

And while there is no cure for Covid-19, doctors, nurses and other medical personnel in New York City have used their experiences during the spring surge to make significant improvements in hospital care.

Across the city’s public and private hospitals, patients with an illness serious enough to need treatment are given a diagnosis and cared for more quickly, spend less time on average in the hospital and are less likely to end up on mechanical ventilation, doctors and hospital executives said.

Fewer are dying: 139 people in the four weeks ending last Saturday. On the worst day during the spring, New York City recorded over 800 confirmed and probable deaths.

That trend has been mirrored in other parts of the country and world, as studies have begun to show lower death rates.

“You would expect there would be a lot more in the way of hospitalizations and deaths and, happily, there are not,” said Dr. Mitchell Katz, head of New York City’s public hospital system. He noted that at the peak in April the city’s public hospital system had more than 900 critically-ill Covid-19 patients on ventilators. On a recent day there were nine.

“How can I call that a second wave?”

Public health officials and epidemiologists had expected a resurgence of the virus in New York as the weather cooled, but many believed its impact would likely be less devastating than in the spring. Now, about 460 people are hospitalized in the city with Covid-19 — near the highest levels seen since late June. That is nowhere near the peak in April, when the virus patient count on one day was more than 12,000.

For now, patients who have been admitted tend to be doing better.

Lorenzo Paladino, an emergency room doctor at SUNY Downstate Medical Center in Brooklyn, recalled how during the spring, some patients were “dying at the door” as they entered the emergency department or going into cardiac arrest while in the ambulance bay.

Now, he said, patients tended to arrive in better shape.

One reason might be that patients are not waiting to go to the hospital, as they were encouraged to do by health authorities at the height of the pandemic in New York, when crowding was an issue and seemingly milder cases were turned away.

There are other factors, too. Nursing home patients today make up a smaller share of new cases, Dr. Katz said. And there are some indications that people being infected now tend to be younger on average than those in the spring, making them more likely to recover.

Once hospitalized, patients are faring better because doctors have a better idea of how to treat them, such as using dexamethasone, a steroid.

An NYU Langone Health study of more than 4,500 patients treated at its hospitals for Covid-19 from March to June found that outcomes began improving over time, even in the early months of the pandemic. At Mount Sinai, the mortality rate has similarly improved.

After a summer of low numbers, the tide of cases began to rise. By early October, Gov. Andrew M. Cuomo had ordered localized shutdowns of schools and businesses in parts of Brooklyn, Queens and the city’s northern suburbs.

New hospital admissions began to rise, too, nearly doubling from their low point in September to about 120 a day across New York State, according to state health officials. A large part of the increase came from the communities with the sharpest rise in cases.

But as of Sunday, fewer people were hospitalized in New York City than in the rest of the state, a reverse of the situation in the spring.

The new cases have not been evenly distributed among hospitals. Montefiore Medical Center in the Bronx has recorded only a slight rise in its coronavirus patient population. On Oct. 21, 32 people were hospitalized there, up from 30 two weeks earlier and 22 in early August.

Mount Sinai, on Manhattan’s Upper East Side, has also seen a sharp jump in patients, mostly from Brooklyn and the northern suburbs of Rockland and Orange Counties, areas experiencing localized outbreaks. “It’s busy but very stable,” Dr. Reich said.

Doctors and public health experts expressed confidence that treatments that emerged earlier in the year had prepared hospitals to better help patients, while underscoring that social distancing and mask-wearing remained critical.

“It’s unlikely that New York City will experience again what it experienced in April and May,” said Dr. Eric Toner, a senior scholar at the Johns Hopkins Center for Health Security.

Out of 461 patients hospitalized on Tuesday in the city, 122 were being treated in intensive care units, according to state data. On the worst days in April, more than 3,100 patients were in the I.C.U.

Dr. Katz said he believed that a lower percentage of people with Covid-19 needed hospitalization now than in the spring. But he cautioned that it was hard to say for sure because testing was so limited then, and mild and moderate cases were far more likely to go undocumented.

On April 7, the city saw its largest death toll — 815 confirmed and probable deaths — along with 6,045 cases and more than 11,000 hospitalizations. On Oct. 21, the most recent date for which city data is complete, the city recorded four deaths and 591 cases. On that day, 454 people were hospitalized.

Dr. Katz listed a range of improvements that had helped patients at public hospitals, including a better understanding of when to put someone on a ventilator and improved use of blood thinners. Doctors have also seen the importance of turning Covid-19 patients onto their stomachs, a technique known as proning that helps distribute oxygen throughout the lungs.

Similar developments have taken place at private facilities. At NYU Langone Health hospitals, for example, the length of stay for most virus patients has been declining, fewer were being treated in the I.C.U. and fewer were dying.

“Quite frankly, there were things that were tried early on in the pandemic that we weren’t sure whether they were beneficial,” Dr. Fritz Francois, the chief medical officer at Langone, said. In some cases, he added, they “might have caused harm.”

For example, in the earliest days of the pandemic, hospitals in New York City tended to intubate patients early. Now, if possible, they avoid intubation, in which a mechanical ventilator breathes for a patient who is deeply sedated. Instead, doctors first attempt to give patients oxygen by less invasive means.

Hospitals are also better prepared to rapidly assess patients from the start; get reliable virus test results in as little as two hours; and make better-informed decisions about whether people need to be admitted, taken to the I.C.U. or provided some sort of oxygen support.

So far, doctors and nurses have been helped by the small number of cases, allowing them to focus more attention on each patient.

Like many health care workers, Dr. Ben McVane, who works in the emergency room at Elmhurst Hospital Center in Queens, had spent months bracing for the return of virus cases. More recently, some doctors have also begun to worry about flu season, and what simultaneous infections from both the flu and the coronavirus could do to patients.

In recent weeks, Dr. McVane said, there had been a small but noticeable uptick of Covid-19 patients at Elmhurst.

For the time being, he said, the increase of patients was manageable, even if it did bring to mind the dark days of the spring, when the hospital was one of the hardest hit in New York.

“For now, it’s more foreboding about what comes next,” he said.

J. David Goodman covers lobbying, fund-raising and the influence of money in politics. A former reporter in City Hall and at police headquarters in New York, he has written about government, politics and criminal justice for The Times since 2012. @jdavidgoodman

Joseph Goldstein covers health care in New York, following years of criminal justice and police reporting for the Metro desk. He also spent a year reporting on Afghanistan from The Times’s Kabul bureau. @JoeKGoldstein
 
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The rinos in Cheyenne have put madatory mask rules on the sheep there. Why the heck to larger cities have to become liberal stupid dumps?

Anyway, we won't be in Cheyenne for a long time. Screw them. Rural life for me, thanks.
 
OFTB this morning:

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North Dakota's overall deaths per 100,000 are at 70. PA's at 69. What is happening in any one particular week is completely irrelevant. The virus arrived there much later. Compare the death rate in ND this week with PA's death rate in its worst week. Virus gonna virus.

Because ND's population is so small, every individual case is going to bump its per capita death rate far higher than in a more populous state. That's how math works. The infections are concentrated in North Dakota's most populous areas, just like they are in every other state.

What is happening NOW is of utmost relevance during a pandemic!

25 of NDs 53 counties had a Covid death in the past week, all but one had new cases, it’s not just populated areas.
 
Every place that locked down and opened back up again is seeing surges in infections. Again, virus gonna virus. So the question is how long are you willing to put life and livelihoods on hold. How many businesses are you willing to permanently shutter, how many people are you willing to permanently impoverish, for a virus that kills less than 1% of those it infects and generally only the most frail and ill of those.

are you suggesting that no matter when we un-shutter businesses, pull the shrink wrap off our homes and get out in the world that the virus will be there ... lurking behind every tree and mailbox and under every fork?

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