Talking DB's Is it scheme or talent?

[stillwright]

Stillwright,

Okay since you asked. I'll go back to 2008 draft and end at 2011. These are veteran players that we can judge.

I will list the good DB's that the Steelers passed and list the round where they were selected.

For the purpose of this response I will only list players who made the pro bowl. Running a fine tooth comb I could come up with MANY DB's that did not make the pro bowl, but are better than the ones we drafted.

Keep in mind Many top DB's were taken before we picked in round one, and I can't trade up to get them, but that doesn't mean we should not have done so.

Deal?

2008 pro bowl DB's.

round 1 : Brandon Flowers, we chose Mendenhall
round 3 Thomas DeCoud

2009 pro bowl DB's

round 2 Jairus Byrd
round 2 William Moore
***We picked K Lewis in round three.*** He was decent, then Colbert let our best drafted DB in years walk.
round 4 Glover Quin


2010 pro bowl DB's

round 1 Devin McCourty
round 2 T. J. Ward
round 4 Alterraun Verner
round 4 Darrell Stuckey
round 5 Kam Chancellor

2011 pro Bowl DB's

round 5 Richard Sherman

Does this post answer your question?

-Coach

Doesn't really answer it.....A complete break down of every team will suffice. I'm not saying we have not done a good job in the CB area, but you act like it is an easy science. Hell. While a player might excel on one team he might do **** on another. If Wallace signs the contract that the Steelers offered we might never of seen the Brown that has grown into the best WR in the game. I do admit that the 11 players(probowlers)in your list is a good start. What is that? Just over 1 per season? How dare the front office miss on them. Also. One might write a few off your list because of character issues .....maybe.

 

[Coach]

Doesn't really answer it.....A complete break down of every team will suffice. I'm not saying we have not done a good job in the CB area, but you act like it is an easy science. Hell. While a player might excel on one team he might do **** on another. If Wallace signs the contract that the Steelers offered we might never of seen the Brown that has grown into the best WR in the game. I do admit that the 11 players(probowlers)in your list is a good start. What is that? Just over 1 per season? How dare the front office miss on them. Also. One might write a few off your list because of character issues .....maybe.

Stillwright,


A complete breakdown of every team? How much reading are you prepared to do? I can save you some time. If you want every team, go buy a football magazines that use scouts to rank DB players.

Check out Lindy's or Pro Football Now. You'll see 50+ names mention as the best. We might only have 1 ( Gay ). Does this help?

Not only did we pass on 11 drafted pro bowl DB's, our free agency and cap management in the secondary was bad.

We lost Lewis and McCain by being cheap in free agency. These are known commodities for the Steelers because they played for them and had 100's of practices under the watchful eye of the coaches.

Then we wait too long to cut Polamalu and Taylor, which cost us a lot of cap space. Had we cut them a year earlier ( what was it 8 million in cape space ? ) we could have signed Revis. Then we give a whale of a deal to re-sign Cortez Allen, who's now a back up. Huge mistake.

How dare the front office miss them you say? I say how can they miss this much.

 

[stillwright]

Stillwright,


A complete breakdown of every team? How much reading are you prepared to do? I can save you some time. If you want every team, go buy a football magazines that use scouts to rank DB players.

Check out Lindy's or Pro Football Now. You'll see 50+ names mention as the best. We might only have 1 ( Gay ). Does this help?

Not only did we pass on 11 drafted pro bowl DB's, our free agency and cap management in the secondary was bad.

We lost Lewis and McCain by being cheap in free agency. These are known commodities for the Steelers because they played for them and had 100's of practices under the watchful eye of the coaches.

Then we wait too long to cut Polamalu and Taylor, which cost us a lot of cap space. Had we cut them a year earlier ( what was it 8 million in cape space ? ) we could have signed Revis. Then we give a whale of a deal to re-sign Cortez Allen, who's now a back up. Huge mistake.

How dare the front office miss them you say? I say how can they miss this much.

I'm not arguing the fact we have made numerous mistakes regarding personal. We hung onto aging vets to long. Either because we had no one to replace them or Dick used his influence to keep them. Probably a bit of both. We have over paid a few of our guys also the last few re-signings. To nick pick letting Lewis go and keeping Allen is laughable....that is all hindsight. No one was big on keeping Lewis. Allen's last few games of Lewis' last season here were big if I remember correctly. Your argument is like people bitching that Cowher never took a QB......some will argue that there never was a quality QB around when he drafted. Maybe the same can be applied here. The draft is a crap shoot. Unfortunately we have been rolling snake eyes when it comes to drafting CB's under Tombert. It happens ....with every team in the league. Not just the Steelers.

 

[Vader]

I'm not arguing the fact we have made numerous mistakes regarding personal. We hung onto aging vets to long. Either because we had no one to replace them or Dick used his influence to keep them. Probably a bit of both. We have over paid a few of our guys also the last few re-signings. To nick pick letting Lewis go and keeping Allen is laughable....that is all hindsight. No one was big on keeping Lewis. Allen's last few games of Lewis' last season here were big if I remember correctly. Your argument is like people bitching that Cowher never took a QB......some will argue that there never was a quality QB around when he drafted. Maybe the same can be applied here. The draft is a crap shoot. Unfortunately we have been rolling snake eyes when it comes to drafting CB's under Tombert. It happens ....with every team in the league. Not just the Steelers.

Why would DL use his influence to keep players that weren't playing well? Maybe Tomlin used his influence to keep them? Maybe he got to close to them? He is the HC right?

 

[stillwright]

Why would DL use his influence to keep players that weren't playing well? Maybe Tomlin used his influence to keep them? Maybe he got to close to them? He is the HC right?

Maybe...Maybe not..we will never know. I know you think Dick stayed on for all these years with Tombert with them doing their best to sabotage his scheme. Drafting players that don't fit into his system. Keeping players he doesn't want. Telling him how to run his defense. I just don't buy it. Dick had more influence than you want to give him....in my opinion. Just don't see why he would stay on if he was just a bystander as you claim. He certainly didn't want to stop having involvement in football. Hell ...he would still be our DC if Tombert didn't push him out the door.

 

[diver]

I agree with that however you can't be the worst in the league at defense and win... can't happen. If defense isn't a big deal anymore than why is Tomlin drafting defense in the first round so often? Why draft Dupree? Why Jones? Why Shazier? Why Heyward, Tuitt and Hood? Sorry but you can't have it both ways. Either defense is irrelevant and Tomlin doesn't know what he is doing OR defense is relevant and he hasn't been able to build a good one.

I'm not trying to defend Tomlin or his methods in anyway with this. I really don't know what to think, to be honest. As I see it, there are two shutdown corners right now, Revis and Sherman. Everybody else is just hanging on from week to week, just hoping that for that particular week, they can defend enough to allow their offense to score more than the other team. I just wonder if we as fans need to wake up to that reality. That doesn't mean do not draft defense. But understand that even if you do, the chances of shutting other teams down with the consistency we may have seen in the past may be over. You draft defense with the idea of doing just enough to be relevant at the end of the year.

 

[Coach]

I'm not arguing the fact we have made numerous mistakes regarding personal. We hung onto aging vets to long. Either because we had no one to replace them or Dick used his influence to keep them. Probably a bit of both. We have over paid a few of our guys also the last few re-signings. To nick pick letting Lewis go and keeping Allen is laughable....that is all hindsight. No one was big on keeping Lewis. Allen's last few games of Lewis' last season here were big if I remember correctly. Your argument is like people bitching that Cowher never took a QB......some will argue that there never was a quality QB around when he drafted. Maybe the same can be applied here. The draft is a crap shoot. Unfortunately we have been rolling snake eyes when it comes to drafting CB's under Tombert. It happens ....with every team in the league. Not just the Steelers.

Hindsight is how you judge things over the course of time. We have too many misses. snake eyes is 36 to 1 odds. Yes we keep rolling it. To my point we need a new shooter. Tomlin and Colbert have let this unit fall apart with bad free agency moves and poor drafting at the secondary position. Our safeties are the worst in the NFL. We traded a 4th for Boykin and quickly picked up a cut Cockrell. IMO these are moves made because the Steelers lacked talent.

What did the Steerers rank in pass defense last year? 27th. And the schedule last season was rather easy.

 

[Coach]

I'm not trying to defend Tomlin or his methods in anyway with this. I really don't know what to think, to be honest. As I see it, there are two shutdown corners right now, Revis and Sherman. Everybody else is just hanging on from week to week, just hoping that for that particular week, they can defend enough to allow their offense to score more than the other team. I just wonder if we as fans need to wake up to that reality. That doesn't mean do not draft defense. But understand that even if you do, the chances of shutting other teams down with the consistency we may have seen in the past may be over. You draft defense with the idea of doing just enough to be relevant at the end of the year.

I'll settle for some plays on the ball. The other teams are making them. We have zero interceptions. Only 1 of our 4 starting DBS would likely start on most teams. That's a problem. And none of our reserves are good role players vs the pass. Most of them are special teams players.

 

[stillwright]

Hindsight is how you judge things over the course of time. We have too many misses. snake eyes is 36 to 1 odds. Yes we keep rolling it. To my point we need a new shooter. Tomlin and Colbert have let this unit fall apart with bad free agency moves and poor drafting at the secondary position. Our safeties are the worst in the NFL. We traded a 4th for Boykin and quickly picked up a cut Cockrell. IMO these are moves made because the Steelers lacked talent.

What did the Steerers rank in pass defense last year? 27th. And the schedule last season was rather easy.

LOL. So you want the front office to draft better because in hindsight you can show how other teams have done better. OK. Gotcha.

 

[Just A Fan]

Loved Lake as a player.

 

[Vader]

Maybe...Maybe not..we will never know. I know you think Dick stayed on for all these years with Tombert with them doing their best to sabotage his scheme. Drafting players that don't fit into his system. Keeping players he doesn't want. Telling him how to run his defense. I just don't buy it. Dick had more influence than you want to give him....in my opinion. Just don't see why he would stay on if he was just a bystander as you claim. He certainly didn't want to stop having involvement in football. Hell ...he would still be our DC if Tombert didn't push him out the door.

They weren't trying to sabotage his scheme and I've never said that. They were trying to change it so they could deal with the spread offenses and speed out of the TE and RB positions. I know exactly what they were thinking. Maybe DL agreed with it maybe he didn't. He still isn't the HC or the GM. Trying to blame him is just bull ****. He loved Pittsburgh and the org. I'm sure he loved the players. So he tried to make it work with these new type of players. And the fact Tombert pushed him out lets me think he had less influence than you seem to think.

 

[SteelerFan448]

I'm still wondering why our best cover corner can't get onto the field.

 

[stillwright]

They weren't trying to sabotage his scheme and I've never said that. They were trying to change it so they could deal with the spread offenses and speed out of the TE and RB positions. I know exactly what they were thinking. Maybe DL agreed with it maybe he didn't. He still isn't the HC or the GM. Trying to blame him is just bull ****. He loved Pittsburgh and the org. I'm sure he loved the players. So he tried to make it work with these new type of players. And the fact Tombert pushed him out lets me think he had less influence than you seem to think.

I didn't realize I blamed Dick solely for our defensive situation. Only that he was part of it. IF he saw we were not drafting players that fit his system(that everyone here apparently saw) and he continued to run the SAME system....well he should of been let go a while ago. Do I blame Dick? Yep. Tombert? Yep. Mostly I blame the Rooney's for the disarray we are in. For you not to put any blame on a DC where the defense has sucked his odd though.

 

[Vader]

I didn't realize I blamed Dick solely for our defensive situation. Only that he was part of it. IF he saw we were not drafting players that fit his system(that everyone here apparently saw) and he continued to run the SAME system....well he should of been let go a while ago. Do I blame Dick? Yep. Tombert? Yep. Mostly I blame the Rooney's for the disarray we are in. For you not to put any blame on a DC where the defense has sucked his odd though.

I blame the people that are paid to be IN CHARGE. Who's the HC? Who's the GM? They are the guys responsible not a DC who is in the HOF and is one of the best if not the best DC in the history of the league. DL did his best with what he had. He just didn't have much. Tomlin wanted to change the defense so he did. Now we have a team that sucks at stopping the run and the pass. DL is gone. So blame who you want.

 

[TDX27]

I know it was the Rams but the D only gave up 2 damn FG's and made a splash play to seal the game. I'll take it any day! And, looks like Cockrell should be starting. He had the best coverage that I saw today.

 

[Vader]

I know it was the Rams but the D only gave up 2 damn FG's and made a splash play to seal the game. I'll take it any day! And, looks like Cockrell should be starting. He had the best coverage that I saw today.

They had players wide open but their QB couldn't hit them. Plus their WRs dropped several passes. Everyone knew the Rams offense was terrible which is why almost everybody picked the Steelers to win big time.

 

[stillwright]

I blame the people that are paid to be IN CHARGE. Who's the HC? Who's the GM? They are the guys responsible not a DC who is in the HOF and is one of the best if not the best DC in the history of the league. DL did his best with what he had. He just didn't have much. Tomlin wanted to change the defense so he did. Now we have a team that sucks at stopping the run and the pass. DL is gone. So blame who you want.

Not Dick.....right? DC's get fired all the time, but Dick is untouchable. Maybe he should/could of adapted his defense to the players he had. How hard would that of been? Maybe I should just ask Butler.

 

[Vader]

Not Dick.....right? DC's get fired all the time, but Dick is untouchable. Maybe he should/could of adapted his defense to the players he had. How hard would that of been? Maybe I should just ask Butler.

Yea, piece of cake. If that's the case then why doesn't every team have a great defense? Can't they adapt? Why didn't Butler adapt against NE? Why did they give up 400 yards to a bad SF team?

 

[stillwright]

Yea, piece of cake. If that's the case then why doesn't every team have a great defense? Can't they adapt? Why didn't Butler adapt against NE? Why did they give up 400 yards to a bad SF team?

Wow....you are missing my point. You claim Tombert has been drafting players that don't/didn't fit Dick's defense. So instead of running the same scheme change it up....for good or bad Butler is trying to do this. Even with the same inferior talent that we have. Last year we might just lose a game like this week.

 

[Vader]

Wow....you are missing my point. You claim Tombert has been drafting players that don't/didn't fit Dick's defense. So instead of running the same scheme change it up....for good or bad Butler is trying to do this. Even with the same inferior talent that we have. Last year we might just lose a game like this week.

You have no idea that we'd lost this last year. Didn't they go 11-5 last year? Didn't everybody think they'd beat the Rats in the playoffs with Bell? But now "they would have lost this game last year"? WOW indeed....

I understand you want to blame DL for everything so that Tomlin and Colbert look good. I get it. But damn man they are in charge right? Aren't they the boss? I'm fine with DL leaving but blaming him makes no sense. Today the defense had WRs open all over the field. The defense has nothing to do when the QB isn't good enough to take advantage of it. Just like the last play. It wasn't a good defensive play. The guy dropped the ball. If they played Foles every week they'd be SB champs.

 

[madinsomniac]

Yea, piece of cake. If that's the case then why doesn't every team have a great defense? Can't they adapt? Why didn't Butler adapt against NE? Why did they give up 400 yards to a bad SF team?

Yeah im going with its the players not the scheme... just like last year I saw a ton of playcalls that had guys in position to make a play and they just didn't... Remember that even when the Pats knew playcalls and had the correct plays called most every time, it still only caused a handful of impact plays in a game... part of a D is having the right scheme and part of it is the playcalls, but most of it will always be the players making plays

 

[stillwright]

You have no idea that we'd lost this last year. Didn't they go 11-5 last year? Didn't everybody think they'd beat the Rats in the playoffs with Bell? But now "they would have lost this game last year"? WOW indeed....

I understand you want to blame DL for everything so that Tomlin and Colbert look good. I get it. But damn man they are in charge right? Aren't they the boss? I'm fine with DL leaving but blaming him makes no sense. Today the defense had WRs open all over the field. The defense has nothing to do when the QB isn't good enough to take advantage of it. Just like the last play. It wasn't a good defensive play. The guy dropped the ball. If they played Foles every week they'd be SB champs.

Nope....I could careless if they are both gone tomorrow. Our defense is horrible because of their drafting , signings, FA's etc.....but I will not leave Dick blameless as you do. Funny how you defend last years team but blast them all the time. As for the last play we at least had a defender right there making contact....last season we play 10 yards off.

 

[stillwright]

Yeah im going with its the players not the scheme... just like last year I saw a ton of playcalls that had guys in position to make a play and they just didn't... Remember that even when the Pats knew playcalls and had the correct plays called most every time, it still only caused a handful of impact plays in a game... part of a D is having the right scheme and part of it is the playcalls, but most of it will always be the players making plays

Sure you did. We haven't had the players in position to make plays for years now. This is just a bad team. To discount any assistant coaches is laughable. Blame can be spread out to everyone. Players, coaches, front office and ownership. They all can take blame.

 

[Vader]

Nope....I could careless if they are both gone tomorrow. Our defense is horrible because of their drafting , signings, FA's etc.....but I will not leave Dick blameless as you do. Funny how you defend last years team but blast them all the time. As for the last play we at least had a defender right there making contact....last season we play 10 yards off.

DL has a different job than the HC and GM. You think a DC can make any defense good by adapting. Fine I expect this defense to be top 5 because Butler is going to make those adaptations.

 

[stillwright]

DL has a different job than the HC and GM. You think a DC can make any defense good by adapting. Fine I expect this defense to be top 5 because Butler is going to make those adaptations.

Top 5...LOL Where are you taking this now? I do know I don't miss miss the cushions on almost every play that was a staple if Dick's. Also I will not miss our DL running into the OL and just putting their hands up.....