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Steelers select Dri Archer in Round 3

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I was looking at him as a 4th rounder, truth be told. I was hoping for Archer, Thomas, or McKinnon somewhere in the 4th. Archer and McKinnon went 3rd round, Thomas in the 4th. So that's in the ballpark. He's here now, which is all that matters, and I'm excited we got him.

Anyway, the third round for Archer isn't as far-fetched as you believe.

Round 3 Mel Kiper's pick: Dri Archer, RB, Kent State
http://www.windycitygridiron.com/20...-desir-ross-cockrell-jean-baptiste-dri-archer

NFL.com Archer Draft Projection Rounds 3-4
http://www.nfl.com/draft/2014/profiles/dri-archer?id=2543596
 
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I've heard people defend the pick by comparing him to McCluster.

OK. Pretend the steelers traded the 3rd round pick for McCluster pre draft. How would you feel about that trade?
 
Idioteque said:
424 touches in five years (he was ineligible for 2011). Lookout for this guy! The NFL will probably take it easier on him than the MAC did. Most guys notice that football gets slower, easier, and less physical once they hit the NFL.

Some points to sum up the idiocy of this pick:

1. Archer isn't small. He isn't a scatback. He isn't Darren Sproles, DeSean Jackson, Willie Parker, or any other smallish NFL player. He's miniscule. He's smaller than Chris effing Rainey. As TMC has pointed out repeatedly, there have been zero successful RBs that weigh 173 ******* pounds. There have been zero successful NFL WRs his size, especially ones who were college RBs and have incredibly short arms and small hands. Being tiny is a huge issue, not only because it opens you up to more injury concerns (which Archer has constantly had), but also because..

2. Sorry to break this, but NFL receivers cannot simply "run past" NFL DBs. If that's how it worked, Olympian and Florida WR John Capel would have made some Pro Bowls, and Donald Driver probably wouldn't have caught 700 passes. DBs do not just watch the receiver run and try to run next to him. They don't stand in awe of the speed of the WR in front of them and just struggle to nip at their heels. They shove them at the LOS. They position themselves in the way of the receiver so as to cut off their route. When the ball comes, they get physical and control the receiver while swatting at the ball.

Consider this: Archer ran 40 yards in 4.26 in shorts with no defenders. Now add full padding, eleven NFL defenders, and a route that needs to be run. Now factor in that, after the snap, the QB typically releases the ball in less than 3 seconds, maybe 4 if it's a go route. Now factor in Archer's constant injuries and fumbling tendencies. Then explain exactly how Archer is going to just sprint to daylight, football in hand, while eleven NFL defenders bend over and suck air.

3. Where is he going to play? This isn't Madden; actual football involves things beyond the ballcarrier. You wanna put Archer in as third-down back? Good, let's have him pick up a blitzing Terrell Suggs in the open field. Want him in the slot? Sure, let's watch him fight off the jam from a 5'10 200# cornerback and use his body to shield him from the ball, then catch it and absorb the hit. Let's have him block downfield on screens and short throws. You want him to return kickoffs? There aren't that many anymore. Return punts? He's never done that and is an injury and fumble case; not sure I want him catching the ball with three sprinting defenders in his face, especially since he has no experience doing it.

Obviously, these are not options. He's not going to pick up the rush, and he's not going to block downfield. So when he's on the field, the defense knows he's going to get the ball. Kinda erases most or all of the speed advantage and limits our playbook. Now, we've spent a 3rd on Chris Rainey II.

All of the "explosiveness!" and "versatility!" and "open space!" being talked about is a moot point if a guy (a) can't get on the field due to fumbles and a lack of offensive ability, and (b) can't secure the ball. You guys keep seeing visions of Eric Metcalf and Darren Sproles in your head, but they are not comparable players. The closest comparison to Archer is absolutely Chris Rainey, who looked dead each time he was hit. Then he usually fumbled for good measure.

4. Archer's size isn't the only knock on him, by a long shot. Even at 5'10 190, he's a big question mark. He fumbles a ton. More than Chris Rainey. He's constantly injured. He was academically ineligible in 2011. He doesn't have a position; he was a part-time RB and gimmick slot WR in school. His only strength - returning kickoffs, not punts - is being rapidly phased out of the NFL; kickoffs will probably be gone within five years. There's no way he can return NFL punts.

5. There are ramifications to wasting this pick. I know we all say, "Well, we filled all our holes later in the draft, so we're fine risking that third!!" Why? Because we drafted some guys late? We took roughly the #15 OT late in the fifth round. We took roughly the #25 CB in the 5th as well. And we snagged a 7th-round NT that probably won't make the team. And that sews up our holes? Do you guys really think that we're now set at CB and OT and NT? I like Shaq Richardson as a late-round developmental CB, but what are the realistic odds he ever becomes a starting-caliber CB for us? 5%? 10%? If that? A third-round pick is immensely valuable, especially when you have holes throughout your depth chart.
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1. Desean Jackson was 169lbs when the Eagles drafted him, he's had some success?

2. Mike Wallace got 60 million dollars for running past DB's.

3. I could be wrong but I am pretty sure they time everyone's 40 in shorts with no pads and 0 NFL defenders.

4. Has Ben ever released the ball in 3 seconds?
 
TMC said:
Yes, he did. He returned punts his final season and was very good at it.
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Thanks. Their website made it very unclear. Just said returns. Didnt say which?
 
tapeANaspirin2it said:
I've heard people defend the pick by comparing him to McCluster.

OK. Pretend the steelers traded the 3rd round pick for McCluster pre draft. How would you feel about that trade?
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There's a difference between defending the pick and countering the sentiment that we would have been better off using the #97 on Jared the Subway guy than Archer.
 
Im with Al my issues were people saying we have no plan for him and we just took cause we saw he ran 4.26. Then the ones saying there is no chance in hell that he can make it. I mean absolutely without a doubt none..

Im aware there are some things size wise he has to overcome. I get that. But there are some things size wise thats to his advantage. The coaches have to figure out ways to maximize that.
 
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USDA#1 said:
Would like to see that.

a quick Google and nfl.com search returned no love.
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Found the link but unable to post being a FNG again, but the heading on the link is "Frasier camp on phone with Dallas as Steelers picked" from NFL.com past news
 
Look, in all honesty, if we had kept our original 3rd round pick. If we traded back in the 1st round and accumulated one (very possibly two) more 3rd round pick(s), then using the last one on Archer might not be as philosophically as poor a use of resources.

But that was not the case. This was our last of only 3 picks in the top-100 of supposedly the deepest draft in Colbert's 30 years as a scout/GM.

By selecting him #97 overall, that means he has to be a better prospect than EVERY OTHER prospect Colbert has ever selected #97 or lower and probably closer to #80 or better based on the depth in this draft. In both promise, size, speed, production and potential.

Look at the profile of some other 3rd round picks: Wallace, Sanders, Wheaton, Spence, Lewis, B. Davis, W. Reid, M. Spaeth, C. Brown, C. Hope.

For the most part (and we see the glaring mistakes based just on that list), most of the players we selected had more upside at more important positions than Archer, right? We're looking as receivers, cornerbacks, pass rushers, safeties.

Something just doesn't jive. If this is the deepest draft ever shouldn't that mean Archer is a better prospect than Wallace, Sanders, Spence or Wheaton? Other recent 3rd round picks?
 
USDA#1 said:
Joe Washington, anyone?

listed at 5-10...no freakin way...I stood next to him at a charity dealio....he may have shrunk.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WashJo00.htm

again, not pimpin, just putting the info up.
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Look at the three starting LBs on that same Atlanta team. They weighed 232, 224, and 211. The DL was 265, 277, 273, and 271. Players have grown significantly. All of them have.....well, except Archer.
 
Idioteque said:
I would suggest reading TMC's post.
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I've read it, along with all the other posts by the naysayers. I have the utmost respect for TMC. I think he - along with some other really knowledgeable posters here - are wrong on Archer. Everyone has a right to an opinion, this board is a great place to hash it all out.

At the end of the day, the fact is, if you click on the Steelers roster, you will find Dri Archer's name sitting right there. The draft is over. The Steelers - for better or worse - decided Archer was worth a 3rd round pick. So at this point, we can go back and forth forever, debating if Archer was worth the pick. The kid hasn't even set foot on the field, yet many here seem eager to bury him. He is not Chris Rainey, he's not McCluster, he's not Stefon Logan, he's not Tavon Austin. Sure, all those guys are small and play the same jitterbug role, but I'm always wary of making such 1-to-1 comparisons. To state that since Logan/Rainey failed before him, Archer will - de facto - also fail just bugs the **** out of me. For the mercy of God, let's give Dri Archer an opportunity to show what kind of player he is, before we zip-up the bag at the morgue.
 
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FordFairLane said:
I don't think people are getting that he is NOT Bell or Blount and he is NOT going to get 300 carries or 100 catches. He will never block a blitzing LB but maybe get behind one of a screen play or two. If you think he's going to be more than a return guy with some nitch plays you are crazy. But that all being said he for what they are looking to do with him he will get carries/catches while Bryant could be the next Brandon Marshall or be the next Limas Sweed. Archer is the safer pick when it comes to contributing next year even if it's only as a return man. Don't get me wrong I liked the Bryant pick and even more when I realized we still got Archer in the third. I have a feeling Archer does not make it past a few teams in the early 4th. Maybe he would but the fact we went ahead and grabbed Bryant in the 4th makes it all the better.

Archer is a bullet in the chamber, and X factor, a guy who can on any play go 90+ yards and get a TD. You won't see Bell or Blount ever do that.
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I absolutely get that he is not getting a lot of reps. That's entirely my point - I don't see the return on value we expect to get by taking him with our 3rd round pick. He's decidely NOT going to be on the field much, and when he is, my contention is that, in an offensive capacity (not special teams as a possible returner), his contribution will be pretty small. Niche plays tend to telegraph themselves - when he's on the field, defenses will learn to spy him and that will more or less neutralize him. Given everything we know about him, we'll be lucky if he makes a handful of meaningful plays on offense.

As for being a return specialist, I flinch every time our $8M/year starting WR goes back to field a punt, wondering if THIS is the play where Brown suffers a season-ending injury, but I've heard some folks say that Archer won't be returning punts, just kickoffs, so I'm not convinced after the past couple of injury-plagued years that a return specialist has been better for us than just letting one of the other guys that was already on the roster handle return duties. The 2013 league average for kick returns was 25 yards (Felix Jones, our best KR man, averaged 22), and almost half (48.5%) of all kickoffs resulted in a touchback.

So what you're saying is that the third round pick on Archer was well-spent because he's going to touch the ball once or twice per game where he COULD take the ball 90 yards (if we are regularly putting him in the game when we're on our own 10, I'll eat my hat), and about 25 kickoffs that he actually returns and, if he's really THAT good, he'll average at least 22 yards per return? Wouldn't we have been better to re-sign Felix Jones, since he was more of a known quantity on offense?
 
JupiterBnG said:
I absolutely get that he is not getting a lot of reps. That's entirely my point - I don't see the return on value we expect to get by taking him with our 3rd round pick. He's decidely NOT going to be on the field much, and when he is, my contention is that, in an offensive capacity (not special teams as a possible returner), his contribution will be pretty small. Niche plays tend to telegraph themselves - when he's on the field, defenses will learn to spy him and that will more or less neutralize him. Given everything we know about him, we'll be lucky if he makes a handful of meaningful plays on offense.

As for being a return specialist, I flinch every time our $8M/year starting WR goes back to field a punt, wondering if THIS is the play where Brown suffers a season-ending injury, but I've heard some folks say that Archer won't be returning punts, just kickoffs, so I'm not convinced after the past couple of injury-plagued years that a return specialist has been better for us than just letting one of the other guys that was already on the roster handle return duties. The 2013 league average for kick returns was 25 yards (Felix Jones, our best KR man, averaged 22), and almost half (48.5%) of all kickoffs resulted in a touchback.

So what you're saying is that the third round pick on Archer was well-spent because he's going to touch the ball once or twice per game where he COULD take the ball 90 yards (if we are regularly putting him in the game when we're on our own 10, I'll eat my hat), and about 25 kickoffs that he actually returns and, if he's really THAT good, he'll average at least 22 yards per return? Wouldn't we have been better to re-sign Felix Jones, since he was more of a known quantity on offense?
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Yes, I have heard the same BS that Archer "can't" return punts. But I also know the Steelers(and other teams) took Archer outside on a cold windy *** day after his pro day and had him field punts. I am assuming that might have raised his draft stock also since all reports said he did a great job especially for the cold windy conditions. That being said I have no clue what production we get out of him. Maybe he is the next Hester/human joystick. Maybe he sucks like Stephon Logan and returns 1 for a TD. I really don't know but people laughed when the Bears took a return man ONLY 57th overall. Yeah, I bet they hate that move now... Archer has Hester returnability with more upside as a WR/RB. And at 5-10 190lbs it's not like Hester is that huge either.

Maybe Archer is a bust but right now I like the pick and am going to cheer the until it's proved otherwise. I remember someone calling TP a bust because statisically speaking almost no safety in 30 years at 5-10 has made a pro bowl. Hey, that worked out ok for us.
 
Tibs said:
At the end of the day, the fact is, if you click on the Steelers roster, you will find Dri Archer's name sitting right there. The draft is over. The Steelers - for better or worse - decided Archer was worth a 3rd round pick. So at this point, we can go back and forth forever, debating if Archer was worth the pick. The kid hasn't even set foot on the field, yet many here seem eager to bury him. He is not Chris Rainey, he's not McCluster, he's not Stefon Logan, he's not Tavon Austin. Sure, all those guys are small and play the same jitterbug role, but I'm always wary of making such 1-to-1 comparisons. To state that since Logan/Rainey failed before him, Archer will - de facto - also fail just bugs the **** out of me. For the mercy of God, let's give Dri Archer an opportunity to show what kind of player he is, before we zip-up the bag at the morgue.
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This is what I will never understand about message boards in general. People have this overwhelming need for predictions and proclamations, which they seem to feel their reputations depend on being right all the time for some reason. I don't really care whether I make a correct prediction or not. Nobody is paying me for my opinion, ESPN is not waiting to hear my take on it, I don't particularly need to feel like an expert on the subject, so I am more than happy to sit back, hope for the best and let things shake out.
 
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I'm sure when picking this guy, Colbert was thinking more "Darren Sproles" than "Chris Rainey"
 
Tibs said:
At the end of the day, the fact is, if you click on the Steelers roster, you will find Dri Archer's name sitting right there. The draft is over. The Steelers - for better or worse - decided Archer was worth a 3rd round pick. So at this point, we can go back and forth forever, debating if Archer was worth the pick.
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With all due respect, Tibs.. considering this is a Steelers discussion forum, this seems like the way to go.

The kid hasn't even set foot on the field, yet many here seem eager to bury him. He is not Chris Rainey, he's not McCluster, he's not Stefon Logan, he's not Tavon Austin. Sure, all those guys are small and play the same jitterbug role, but I'm always wary of making such 1-to-1 comparisons. To state that since Logan/Rainey failed before him, Archer will - de facto - also fail just bugs the **** out of me. For the mercy of God, let's give Dri Archer an opportunity to show what kind of player he is, before we zip-up the bag at the morgue.
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That's kind of the point of scouting and projecting. Examining a player's skillset, projecting his NFL possibilities, and assigning value to it. Without that, all we're doing - literally - is stating the pick. No replies, no discussion, nothing:

Post #1 - Steelers drafted Dri Archer of Kent State!!

/end of thread

Again, this is a forum to discuss football. So that's not the route most of us take. We discuss football.

Did you dislike any prospects in this draft? Were there any guys you thought wouldn't be good players, or good fits as Steelers? If so, I could apply all of these statements to your opinions of them. Yes, I know, I know. You thought they weren't quite what we were looking for, but you trust the scouts and coaches more than the pundits and fans, maybe he can turn it around, you look forward to seeing him in the B&G and yadda yadda yadda. Not to sound like a dick, Tibs, but a lot of us enjoy discussing it further.
 
Tibs said:
I've read it, along with all the other posts by the naysayers. I have the utmost respect for TMC. I think he - along with some other really knowledgeable posters here - are wrong on Archer. Everyone has a right to an opinion, this board is a great place to hash it all out.

At the end of the day, the fact is, if you click on the Steelers roster, you will find Dri Archer's name sitting right there. The draft is over. The Steelers - for better or worse - decided Archer was worth a 3rd round pick. So at this point, we can go back and forth forever, debating if Archer was worth the pick. The kid hasn't even set foot on the field, yet many here seem eager to bury him. He is not Chris Rainey, he's not McCluster, he's not Stefon Logan, he's not Tavon Austin. Sure, all those guys are small and play the same jitterbug role, but I'm always wary of making such 1-to-1 comparisons. To state that since Logan/Rainey failed before him, Archer will - de facto - also fail just bugs the **** out of me. For the mercy of God, let's give Dri Archer an opportunity to show what kind of player he is, before we zip-up the bag at the morgue.
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I bolded a couple parts I want to touch on and then I am pretty much done on the Archer debate. You state there are those here that are ready to bury him. Maybe. I am not. I hope he does well, I just do not believe he will and believe that history has shown players with his traits fail far too often. But, I do find it funny that you do not take exception with those jumping out ready to anoint him a game changer. One of the first posts talked about how great a special teams player he would be and how he could instantly flip the field. There have been various positive correlations where people have tried to show smaller players were better and he could be better. Did not seem to bother you at all, but point to players that failed, and you become wary. Do I think he fails? Odds are he does. Do I hope he bucks the damn trend, have to, if I want my team to win.

And, players do not always have to "hit the field" for people to know what the odds of them succeeding/failing are. History shows us. For them to defy the odds is just that, someone that is completely against the grain, an anomaly, an outlier. It is kind of like hoping your kid is born with an IQ over 160 and then arguing with those telling you he may just not be that smart.

As for the comparisons, I do not care for the individual comparisons myself. He is not Tavon Austin. For one, Austin is a pure receiver and Archer is a RB. IMO, any WR comparison is thrown out the window because he is not a WR, not experienced, not polished, just not a WR. He is a RB. And, I do not need to compare him to a single RB. In fact, I would rather compare his traits to the aggregate to get an idea of his success/failure rate. I would definitely use that in the initial phase of judging my prospects. Why continue to draft players with a low chance of success?

As I said before, and this is the bottom line for me....

Is Archer a RB? If he is, only 1 RB weighing under 180 has been quasi-successful in the NFL in the last decade and that was Dexter McCluster and he had one good year with 114 carries for 516 yards and 1 TD. That is it. So, if you are selling him as a RB, sorry, not buying. The history and statistics show he will fail. Long odds.

Is Archer a receiver? A slot receiver? If so, why not go with a guy that has been a WR consistently in college that understands routes, defenses, body control, how to attack the ball in the air, and all the other things that WRs have done in college while Archer took end arounds. He has a great vertical jump, does not use it as a receiver. Small catch radius. TINY hands, under 9". Miniscule. Short arms. Poor route runner. Does not block. As a receiver, there are probably 20+ players more NFL ready with NFL bodies.

Is Archer a specialist? Well, he does not return punts, putrid at it. Kick returner only.

So, without work, you can scratch the punt returner/wide receiver from the list. He is a 173-pound kickoff return specialist that will have a handful of gadget runs/screens/other bullshit that takes the football out of the hands of Bell/Brown/Miller/etc.

Is that worthy of a draft pick? To me, it is not.
 
I hear ya TMC, I hear ya. ;)

Idioteque said:
Not to sound like a dick, Tibs, but a lot of us enjoy discussing it further.
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And clearly, nothing will keep you from doing just that. ;)
 
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Tibs said:
I've read it, along with all the other posts by the naysayers. I have the utmost respect for TMC. I think he - along with some other really knowledgeable posters here - are wrong on Archer. Everyone has a right to an opinion, this board is a great place to hash it all out.

At the end of the day, the fact is, if you click on the Steelers roster, you will find Dri Archer's name sitting right there. The draft is over. The Steelers - for better or worse - decided Archer was worth a 3rd round pick. So at this point, we can go back and forth forever, debating if Archer was worth the pick. The kid hasn't even set foot on the field, yet many here seem eager to bury him. He is not Chris Rainey, he's not McCluster, he's not Stefon Logan, he's not Tavon Austin. Sure, all those guys are small and play the same jitterbug role, but I'm always wary of making such 1-to-1 comparisons. To state that since Logan/Rainey failed before him, Archer will - de facto - also fail just bugs the **** out of me. For the mercy of God, let's give Dri Archer an opportunity to show what kind of player he is, before we zip-up the bag at the morgue.
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This isn't an indictment of Dri Archer personally. It isn't his fault he is short with T-Rex arms. Hell I'm short with T-Rex arms. This isn't an indictment of the team we all have thousands of dollars worth of **** in our basement of. This is an indictment of Tomlin and Colbert, who simply DO NOT draft well together. It was just a stupid pick. Do i hope that I and these other people are wrong. Of course, its in the best interest of the team I love. However, I'm not going to sit like a homer and say, "These guys must know what they are doing". Because from past experience, they clearly don't when left together. Could have Seattle made a high risk pick like this. **** yeah. They have hit homers with undrafted free agents and 6-7th rounders. Tomlin and Colbert have been crapping out more times than a degenerate gambler in Vegas. It was just a stupid pick. Do stupid things sometimes work out? Sure. Hope so.
 
I guess that's better than being tall with t-rex arms.

Remember Eric Heiden? Always reminded me of a t-rex. I don't know if his arms were short or not, but they were like strings. But he had those ******' legs.

All this t-rex arms stuff, did they ever determine what t-rex did with those arms? Did they serve a purpose, or were they just sort of there? When I was a kid way back I had a book on dinosaurs and there was a picture in there with a triceratops with his one big horn impaling a t-rex, and the t-rex couldn't do much cause of those arms. Couldn't really bite him, either, cause of that big shield sort of thing the triceratops had.
 
20 pages!

hahahahahahaha


Fun facts....Dri Archer did more reps of 225 lbs. than Mike Adams.
 
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