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Pouncey second surgery??

Punxsutawney

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It's hard to not get a "what it could have been" vibe with Pouncey.

He's been "good" since his rookie year, but he's never been quite the same player following that gruesome ankle injury in the AFC title game of his first professional season.

I saw greatness in Pouncey in 2010 and mere "goodness" ever since,
 

RollRed

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Maybe I should rename him "Captain Sweatpants" instead of Shazier... From now on, Pouncey is Captain Sweatpants and Shazier is his trusty sidekick "Hoodie"....
 

RollRed

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I say leave him out til next year.... Obviously his body for whatever reason doesn't hold up to the wear and tear that occurs on the football field the way others do. Putting him out there when any part of his body is in any sort of weakened state is just inviting further injury.
 

insaniti

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I say leave him out til next year.... Obviously his body for whatever reason doesn't hold up to the wear and tear that occurs on the football field the way others do. Putting him out there when any part of his body is in any sort of weakened state is just inviting further injury.

Yeah, because an infection is a football related injury...
 

Ron Burgundy

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Yeah, because an infection is a football related injury...

Some players just have bad luck. I know I wouldn't give him another contract but Tombert probably will.
 

Punxsutawney

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Some players just have bad luck. I know I wouldn't give him another contract but Tombert probably will.

Bad luck is exactly what it's been for Pouncey. I refuse to call him injury prone as all four of the major injuries in his career have been due to a teammate falling on his legs. It's just crazy.

Now, Lamarr Woodley and Ryan Shazier, constantly experiencing severe muscle tightness/soreness, are injury prone.
 

stillwright

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Yeah, because an infection is a football related injury...
I'm not a docter but if he didn't get hurt in the first place I'm guessing the infection never happens.
 

wig

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Nobody's trying to be mean to Maurkice Pouncey. He can't play. He's paid millions and millions of dollars to fill a position and he can't do it. It's a business contract. Really, it's pretty simple. You just have to take a look at it and determine whether or not you believe over time he'll be able to give you a decent return on your investment. The issue is you've invested a significant amount of money in him for a certain amount of time. The clock is ticking and he isn't producing anything.

Do you think he's going to give us an extra year without pay on his contract? Do you suppose he'll just extend his contract because of the injury and say, "Hey Front Office, I really appreciate that you stuck with me when I broke my ankle and got that infection, so I'm going to give you a whole extra year at no charge! We'll renegotiate NEXT YEAR!"

Nope. He's going to want MORE MONEY! All that despite the fact that he's sitting in a physical therapy room (that the Steelers are paying for,btw) and NOT Playing.

At some point you have to wonder if he's worth the investment. It's not hatred or mean-ness, it's business decision. If the same thing happened to a guy in a grocery store, you'd do the same thing. You'd work out a settlement and let him go.
 

Ron Burgundy

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Nobody's trying to be mean to Maurkice Pouncey. He can't play. He's paid millions and millions of dollars to fill a position and he can't do it. It's a business contract. Really, it's pretty simple. You just have to take a look at it and determine whether or not you believe over time he'll be able to give you a decent return on your investment. The issue is you've invested a significant amount of money in him for a certain amount of time. The clock is ticking and he isn't producing anything.

Do you think he's going to give us an extra year without pay on his contract? Do you suppose he'll just extend his contract because of the injury and say, "Hey Front Office, I really appreciate that you stuck with me when I broke my ankle and got that infection, so I'm going to give you a whole extra year at no charge! We'll renegotiate NEXT YEAR!"

Nope. He's going to want MORE MONEY! All that despite the fact that he's sitting in a physical therapy room (that the Steelers are paying for,btw) and NOT Playing.

At some point you have to wonder if he's worth the investment. It's not hatred or mean-ness, it's business decision. If the same thing happened to a guy in a grocery store, you'd do the same thing. You'd work out a settlement and let him go.

He's not exactly following the tradition of iron man Steelers centers like Mansfield, Webster, Dawson, and to some extent since he wasn't here very long, Hartings.
 

AggieSteel

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He's dead to me as a fan. Honestly I don't consider him a part of the team. Any snaps we get out of him, I consider to be a bonus.
 

bermudasteel

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Im as frustrated as anyone with him being frequently hurt, but these injuries aren't his fault...DeCastro took him out two years ago and this season he got rolled up on from the back. He's just unfortunate. But im wondering if its time to look next draft for a new starting center. Im not really feelin this Cody Wallace kid...hes getting blown up frequently.

This. It saddens me to know that he gives 100% all the time and then gets labeled as injury-prone...but, we HAVE TO find someone better than Cody...
 

stillwright

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This. It saddens me to know that he gives 100% all the time and then gets labeled as injury-prone...but, we HAVE TO find someone better than Cody...
I never liked the fact we made him the highest paid center ever......The fact that he is often hurt should of came into play in negotiations along with his stupid off season **** he does.
 

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This. It saddens me to know that he gives 100% all the time and then gets labeled as injury-prone...but, we HAVE TO find someone better than Cody...

Hubbard is the next man up and he terrible in the pre-season. BJ Finney made the practice squad and looked good when I was watching the OL in the pre-season.
 

bermudasteel

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Hubbard is the next man up and he terrible in the pre-season. BJ Finney made the practice squad and looked good when I was watching the OL in the pre-season.

Coach---throwing chyt at a wall doesn't mean it's gonna stick.

Let's be honest, overpaid or not, Pouncey is one of the BEST C's in the league and none of the C's on this team are in the same galaxy. He can read the defensive coverages. He knows all of Ben's audibles and nuances. When he's out there - Ben has 8 seconds to throw. Did I mention that he consistently gets to the second level to assist with down the field blocks in the running game???

Yeah, let's stick Hubbard and Finney in there - centers are simply just replaceable objects on an OL...
 

obxsteeler

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Hubbard is the next man up and he terrible in the pre-season. BJ Finney made the practice squad and looked good when I was watching the OL in the pre-season.

Apparently he didn't look good enough to Munchak to make the roster.
 

Coach

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Coach---throwing chyt at a wall doesn't mean it's gonna stick.

Let's be honest, overpaid or not, Pouncey is one of the BEST C's in the league and none of the C's on this team are in the same galaxy. He can read the defensive coverages. He knows all of Ben's audibles and nuances. When he's out there - Ben has 8 seconds to throw. Did I mention that he consistently gets to the second level to assist with down the field blocks in the running game???

Yeah, let's stick Hubbard and Finney in there - centers are simply just replaceable objects on an OL...

I would call Finney and unknown. Hubbard is terrible. When Pouncey was hurt before we picked up a guy who was cut named Fernando Velasco and threw him against the wall. He did just fine or if you prefer stuck! Point being you just don't know until he plays. Kind of like the last two kickers the Steelers had. If Wallace keeps playing bad, give someone else a try.

You did bring up a point. Mike Vick is slow on reads and takes a lot of sacks. Ben gets the ball out quicker, so when he returns, Wallace might look a bit better.
 

wig

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And I'm not even suggesting that Pouncey isn't a great center when he plays. Let's break down his contract and compare that to the games he's unable to play. Let's then run that against the 2 full seasons he's had to sit out due to injury, this latest due to what appears to be a staph infection which could very possibly seriously derail if not end his career (I'm just being realistic here... Remember Greg Lloyd?) Then let's see if his fine Center play warrants that salary.

It should be relatively easy math. Who's got his salary numbers? Again, I'm not hating on Pouncey. I'm doing business analysis. I love that he can get to the 2nd level. How often has he gotten to the second level this year? How many times can we expect him to do that before the end of the season? How much are the Steelers paying him each week to get to the 2nd level? How much is he counting against the cap to get against the second level? How much benefit is his excellent understanding of Ben's audibles giving us this season? Will it help in the Steeler's quest to get to the playoffs this year? What kind of pricetag can we put on Pouncey's understanding of Ben's body-language and their rapport? How much will that help the Steelers this season? What kind of a pricetag does the front office put on that this season? Does that pricetag exceed the medical expenses, salary and cap hits that Pouncey is costing the team?

The cap hit is unavoidable. Medical expenses too, They're humane and well deserved. He was hurt playing for the team. However at some point the Front Office has to determine whether or not they want to continue a long term contract with a guy who plays about 1/3 of the time at best. That's the reality. If you had an employee that came in to work literally 240 days out of the year, would you pay them the top wage in your company? Hell, the top wage of ALL employees at his position int the country? What if he was unable to come in for the rest of the year? Particularly when you were hoping for a really good and profitable season?

What do you do?
 

SteelerAl

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And I'm not even suggesting that Pouncey isn't a great center when he plays. Let's break down his contract and compare that to the games he's unable to play. Let's then run that against the 2 full seasons he's had to sit out due to injury, this latest due to what appears to be a staph infection which could very possibly seriously derail if not end his career (I'm just being realistic here... Remember Greg Lloyd?) Then let's see if his fine Center play warrants that salary.

It should be relatively easy math. Who's got his salary numbers? Again, I'm not hating on Pouncey. I'm doing business analysis. I love that he can get to the 2nd level. How often has he gotten to the second level this year? How many times can we expect him to do that before the end of the season? How much are the Steelers paying him each week to get to the 2nd level? How much is he counting against the cap to get against the second level? How much benefit is his excellent understanding of Ben's audibles giving us this season? Will it help in the Steeler's quest to get to the playoffs this year? What kind of pricetag can we put on Pouncey's understanding of Ben's body-language and their rapport? How much will that help the Steelers this season? What kind of a pricetag does the front office put on that this season? Does that pricetag exceed the medical expenses, salary and cap hits that Pouncey is costing the team?

The cap hit is unavoidable. Medical expenses too, They're humane and well deserved. He was hurt playing for the team. However at some point the Front Office has to determine whether or not they want to continue a long term contract with a guy who plays about 1/3 of the time at best. That's the reality. If you had an employee that came in to work literally 240 days out of the year, would you pay them the top wage in your company? Hell, the top wage of ALL employees at his position int the country? What if he was unable to come in for the rest of the year? Particularly when you were hoping for a really good and profitable season?

What do you do?

OK, we get it dude. Could you be any more pedantic?

Obviously there is no decision to be made (about cutting him) until the off-season. At that point if he's already recovered or expected to be fully recovered for the 2016 season, then he's my starting center in 2016.
 

Stryker

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Great points Wig. I understand the business perspective, which is where you're coming from. Let's look at his numbers:

This year Pouncey is $4.3M against the cap. That is a wash, as we can't get any of that back this year. Let's see what the cuts do:
2016 $10.5M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $11M Probably not happening.
2017 $10.4M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $8M we save $3M If we cut him, this would probably be the first year, but we're looking at a good amount of dead money.
2018 $10.55M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $4.5M we save $6M
2019 $7M against the cap cost us $1M to cut and we save $6M

The cut costs are the prorated values from his signing bonus the way it was structured. So the team could save the salary amounts yearly. Personally, I don't think it's a smart business move to do it before 2018, but I can understand if he gets another significant injury or has an extreme problem with his current one.

Even with the numbers, I pay the man, because there is only about 3 people in the league that can perform at his high level when he is healthy and on the field. I take that chance, and the Steelers took that chance on talent alone, that he can be a difference maker when he's playing. Special centers don't grow on trees, and no he's not Dirt or Webster. He's faster, more athletic and something new. And if he's healthy, everyone can see it instead of speculate on the type of player he's perceived to be by some.
 

Coach

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Great points Wig. I understand the business perspective, which is where you're coming from. Let's look at his numbers:

This year Pouncey is $4.3M against the cap. That is a wash, as we can't get any of that back this year. Let's see what the cuts do:
2016 $10.5M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $11M Probably not happening.
2017 $10.4M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $8M we save $3M If we cut him, this would probably be the first year, but we're looking at a good amount of dead money.
2018 $10.55M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $4.5M we save $6M
2019 $7M against the cap cost us $1M to cut and we save $6M

The cut costs are the prorated values from his signing bonus the way it was structured. So the team could save the salary amounts yearly. Personally, I don't think it's a smart business move to do it before 2018, but I can understand if he gets another significant injury or has an extreme problem with his current one.

Even with the numbers, I pay the man, because there is only about 3 people in the league that can perform at his high level when he is healthy and on the field. I take that chance, and the Steelers took that chance on talent alone, that he can be a difference maker when he's playing. Special centers don't grow on trees, and no he's not Dirt or Webster. He's faster, more athletic and something new. And if he's healthy, everyone can see it instead of speculate on the type of player he's perceived to be by some.


NIce stuff.

So I took a took at Jim Wexell's twitter account. He said a non-team Doctor told him Pouncey is done for the year. With multiple knee and ankle issues, you'd have to conclude that Pouncey's best days are behind him. If he can't come back with stuck with a Woodley type of dead money cap killer for the year.

Looking at a center in rounds 2-4 in the 2016 draft makes sense.
 

SteelerSask2

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Always amazed how these players have the best doctors and the best hospitals and consistently get post operative infections and require subsequent surgeries. I guess money can't buy everything.
 

swal75

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Great points Wig. I understand the business perspective, which is where you're coming from. Let's look at his numbers:

This year Pouncey is $4.3M against the cap. That is a wash, as we can't get any of that back this year. Let's see what the cuts do:
2016 $10.5M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $11M Probably not happening.
2017 $10.4M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $8M we save $3M If we cut him, this would probably be the first year, but we're looking at a good amount of dead money.
2018 $10.55M against the cap. If we cut him he costs us $4.5M we save $6M
2019 $7M against the cap cost us $1M to cut and we save $6M

The cut costs are the prorated values from his signing bonus the way it was structured. So the team could save the salary amounts yearly. Personally, I don't think it's a smart business move to do it before 2018, but I can understand if he gets another significant injury or has an extreme problem with his current one.

Even with the numbers, I pay the man, because there is only about 3 people in the league that can perform at his high level when he is healthy and on the field. I take that chance, and the Steelers took that chance on talent alone, that he can be a difference maker when he's playing. Special centers don't grow on trees, and no he's not Dirt or Webster. He's faster, more athletic and something new. And if he's healthy, everyone can see it instead of speculate on the type of player he's perceived to be by some.

Likely next year he comes back, they restructure his cap hit again. And he counts at approx 6.5(7m salary&RB converted to 1m base, 1.5 extra proration on remaining 4 years)
All figures approx
2016-stays on team, counts at 6.5M
2017 cap hit 12.5, salary 7.5mm, approximately a wash to cut him, would have proration of approx 12.7M. Could be June first cut for 5m vs 2017, 7.5 vs 2018.

If he's good in 2016, they def keep him for 2017, and prob restructure him yet again. His 2017 figure could be reduced down to about 8.5m vs the cap

2018 becomes the year where he's most likely cut. His cap figure will be about 14m following 2 more restructures. Dead money to cut him would be approx 12.5M
 
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