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Narratives

D

diver

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I have often been accused of being a Tomlin apologist. But I have never tried to defend his record and have stated a number of times he shouldn't have this job due to the facts...his record. It is some of the narratives I object to. So with that in mind, two narratives that really bother me. One is that the performance of the team on the field is mostly due to the coaching. I object to that because I have a hard time understanding how guys who don't play are more responsible than the guys that do. The second is that the Steelers have bad coaches across the board. It goes hand in hand.

According to DK, PFF ranks the Steelers OL as the 8th best in the league. Williamson has said PFF isn't as bad a resource as a lot of people think. Anyway, those that think it is mostly coaches and the Steeler coaches stink, is Pat Meyer all of the sudden a good football coach? Is the improvement of the OL mostly due to Pat Meyer? If you say it is mostly coaches when they are playing poorly, doesn't it have to be the same when they are playing well?
 
Performance is two fold it is based off individual performance and schematics. A team can under or over perform based off of schematics and X and O efficiency or deficiency.

One game can be attributed to players underperforming or overperforming. Not to be confused with trends which the head coach will get approval or flamed for.

Not sure fans think the Steelers have bad coaches across the board. As far as Meyer he had good and bad moments probably a hard evaluation.

PFF and its stats . Stats can be so misleading and subjective. So I will have to say there is no proof that they are accurate.
 
Obviously players have to make plays, but it is the coaches job to put them in the proper spots. If Watt is told to crash in every play and the other team runs around the edge, that is on coaching and not watt. Calling plays that require super human effort to work is on the coaches. Like the goal like toss last game. If you run a blitz and have a slower MLB covering the other teams top WR that is coaching. Blitz was a good call, but at worst they should have had a safety on flowers. A QB chucking it deep when guys are open underneath is a player problem, fumbling, getting physically beat is a player problem. If one guy is constantly getting beat and coaches don't attempt to fix it somehow then it becomes a coaching problem. The biggest issue is we do the same thing regardless of the other team. If it works it looks great, if not we continue to try the square peg in the round hole. There were a few games this year where we just refused to attack a teams weakness. The bears were missing their whole LB core and we didn't attack that.
 
slashsteel said:
Performance is two fold it is based off individual performance and schematics. A team can under or over perform based off of schematics and X and O efficiency or deficiency.

One game can be attributed to players underperforming or overperforming. Not to be confused with trends which the head coach will get approval or flamed for.

Not sure fans think the Steelers have bad coaches across the board. As far as Meyer he had good and bad moments probably a hard evaluation.

PFF and its stats . Stats can be so misleading and subjective. So I will have to say there is no proof that they are accurate.
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I agree. You are very common sense. It is the "all on the coaches" crowd. And again, the Steelers need a fresh start regardless of what happens in the playoffs. I acknowledge that.

I think the OL is playing better mostly because the players are playing better.
 
jitter77 said:
Obviously players have to make plays, but it is the coaches job to put them in the proper spots. If Watt is told to crash in every play and the other team runs around the edge, that is on coaching and not watt. Calling plays that require super human effort to work is on the coaches. Like the goal like toss last game. If you run a blitz and have a slower MLB covering the other teams top WR that is coaching. Blitz was a good call, but at worst they should have had a safety on flowers. A QB chucking it deep when guys are open underneath is a player problem, fumbling, getting physically beat is a player problem. If one guy is constantly getting beat and coaches don't attempt to fix it somehow then it becomes a coaching problem. The biggest issue is we do the same thing regardless of the other team. If it works it looks great, if not we continue to try the square peg in the round hole. There were a few games this year where we just refused to attack a teams weakness. The bears were missing their whole LB core and we didn't attack that.
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But don't you have 20 year vet QB to see that and audible out? And I'm just not buying that Aaron Rodgers, the same guy yelling at coaches, 20 year vet, can't do that. I'm not trying to justify the coaching in many situations. But when I say sometimes players have to play better, or they just have to beat the man in front of them, which I believe, you'd think I was saying Mike Tomlin should be the coach of the Steelers for the next 19 years.
 
Yeah if a guy is running down the field and is stripped, that's not on the coach or a WR drops a pass right in his hands.

The problem is that the same garbage has been going on for almost a decade across multiple QB's, OC's, GM's, DC's defensive players, etc.
Going against very good running offenses and Olines, and we constantly trot out 2 Dlinemen, 4 LB's, 5 DB's expecting to stop the run. The sideways passing that has been going on since Hailey's final year. Not showing up early in playoff games. Constantly trying to cover wr's with ILB's than can't cover.
 
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PFF is really really really bad at OL stuff.. there are tons of player and coaches interviews talking about them giving shotty ratings to guys who are getting accolades in the film room cause they dont get the blocking scheme or gameplan... conversely they give high marks to guys who utilize their preferred techniques and expected blocks even if the staff isnt happy with what they are doing
 
madinsomniac said:
PFF is really really really bad at OL stuff.. there are tons of player and coaches interviews talking about them giving shotty ratings to guys who are getting accolades in the film room cause they dont get the blocking scheme or gameplan... conversely they give high marks to guys who utilize their preferred techniques and expected blocks even if the staff isnt happy with what they are doing
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I think PFF graded Justin Fields higher than Rodgers in that first game.
 
My find with any problem unit on this team is that it is usually solved by infusing talent. They put a lot of capital into the oline. Other then Broderick Jones its starting to mature and play better. That could be good coaching with Dylan Cook. He certainly is not a big draft pick. They aren't all horrible. But none of the assistants go onto coordinators and none of the coordinators go onto head coach. That says a lot.
 
The narrative is that Tomlin and the coaching staff get blamed when the performance on the field is poor and never get credit when the performance is good to excellent. That's to be expected in that role.

Andy Reid could NEVER win the big one. Then he became the greatest coach after they got Mahomes. Belichick is the GOAT as long as he has Brady (and some cheating). Really, as far as playoff performance goes, I mostly look at Tomlin's record when he had Ben (pre-2020). His playoff record is 8-7 with two Super Bowl appearances and one Super Bowl win. Harbaugh is the hottest ticket going and Tomlin is arguably more respected.

There comes a time to go though. And if they lose Monday night, I'd like to see a mutual parting of the ways. Tomlin should go into broadcasting for a year and then take a job for a team with a franchise QB. And the Steelers need to hire an offensive mind.
 
jitter77 said:
Obviously players have to make plays, but it is the coaches job to put them in the proper spots. If Watt is told to crash in every play and the other team runs around the edge, that is on coaching and not watt. Calling plays that require super human effort to work is on the coaches. Like the goal like toss last game. If you run a blitz and have a slower MLB covering the other teams top WR that is coaching. Blitz was a good call, but at worst they should have had a safety on flowers. A QB chucking it deep when guys are open underneath is a player problem, fumbling, getting physically beat is a player problem. If one guy is constantly getting beat and coaches don't attempt to fix it somehow then it becomes a coaching problem. The biggest issue is we do the same thing regardless of the other team. If it works it looks great, if not we continue to try the square peg in the round hole. There were a few games this year where we just refused to attack a teams weakness. The bears were missing their whole LB core and we didn't attack that.
Click to expand...

We’ve complained about our O line for quite some time.
Now that they have vastly improved, is it because we put them in proper spots or because we now have better players in those spots?
 
DesertSteel said:
The narrative is that Tomlin and the coaching staff get blamed when the performance on the field is poor and never get credit when the performance is good to excellent. That's to be expected in that role.

Andy Reid could NEVER win the big one. Then he became the greatest coach after they got Mahomes. Belichick is the GOAT as long as he has Brady (and some cheating). Really, as far as playoff performance goes, I mostly look at Tomlin's record when he had Ben (pre-2020). His playoff record is 8-7 with two Super Bowl appearances and one Super Bowl win. Harbaugh is the hottest ticket going and Tomlin is arguably more respected.

There comes a time to go though. And if they lose Monday night, I'd like to see a mutual parting of the ways. Tomlin should go into broadcasting for a year and then take a job for a team with a franchise QB. And the Steelers need to hire an offensive mind.
Click to expand...
Reid and Belichick have won a playoff game without a HOF QB. Joe Gibbs won 3 super bowls without a franchise guy, Cowher won almost as many playoff games without Ben as Tomlin did with Ben, Mike Vrabel beat Brady and Belicheat in NE with Tannehill, Harbaugh beat Brady and Belicheat in NE with Flacco. If you're a HOF coach and one of the highest paid in the NFL it's not unreasonable to be expected to win a playoff game here or there without a HOF QB. He hasn't even been competitive.
 
Of course, coaches coach and players play, but coaches need to put players into the best position to succeed. Some popular examples of that NOT happening over the years include asking guys like Jonnu or Muth to block DEs, asking guys like Dirty Red or any LB really to cover a #1 WR when the O goes heavy set. Also, the avoidance of the MOF severely limits the offense.

Watch any other game and you'll generally see a handful of plays on offense that are schemed wide open. We don't get that unless there is a coverage bust.

This is why I think Tomlin would be a great college coach. He could recruit talent and let them "line up and beat your man".
 
jitter77 said:
Obviously players have to make plays, but it is the coaches job to put them in the proper spots. If Watt is told to crash in every play and the other team runs around the edge, that is on coaching and not watt. Calling plays that require super human effort to work is on the coaches. Like the goal like toss last game. If you run a blitz and have a slower MLB covering the other teams top WR that is coaching. Blitz was a good call, but at worst they should have had a safety on flowers. A QB chucking it deep when guys are open underneath is a player problem, fumbling, getting physically beat is a player problem. If one guy is constantly getting beat and coaches don't attempt to fix it somehow then it becomes a coaching problem. The biggest issue is we do the same thing regardless of the other team. If it works it looks great, if not we continue to try the square peg in the round hole. There were a few games this year where we just refused to attack a teams weakness. The bears were missing their whole LB core and we didn't attack that.
Click to expand...

Bingo. As soon as we lose a guy that becomes the excuse because other teams pick at that like a scab while we fail to adjust. Conversely, we don't take advantage of other team's injuries unless it's at QB and the backup just plays like crap.
 
Coryea said:
Reid and Belichick have won a playoff game without a HOF QB. Joe Gibbs won 3 super bowls without a franchise guy, Cowher won almost as many playoff games without Ben as Tomlin did with Ben, Mike Vrabel beat Brady and Belicheat in NE with Tannehill, Harbaugh beat Brady and Belicheat in NE with Flacco. If you're a HOF coach and one of the highest paid in the NFL it's not unreasonable to be expected to win a playoff game here or there without a HOF QB. He hasn't even been competitive.
Click to expand...

To pile on, Noll won a playoff game with Bubby Brister vs. Warren Moon in Houston and one with Mark Malone vs. John Elway in Denver.
 
SteelerSask2 said:
My find with any problem unit on this team is that it is usually solved by infusing talent. They put a lot of capital into the oline. Other then Broderick Jones its starting to mature and play better. That could be good coaching with Dylan Cook. He certainly is not a big draft pick. They aren't all horrible. But none of the assistants go onto coordinators and none of the coordinators go onto head coach. That says a lot.
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Having Dylan Cook buried at 4th string is a great example of how coaches hurt a team through mismanagement and poor talent evaluation.
These idiots would have never known what they had in Cook if it wasn't for dumb luck of Jones and 3 other guys getting hurt.
Broderick Jones biggest contribution to this team has been sitting on the bench the past month.

Dumb Luck
 
Keep in mind that Tomlin has a lot of input in building this roster every year.
Some act like Tomlin is just dropped into training camp each year and told to coach this team. He builds this team!
Example… Sean Peyton drafts franchise QB Bo Nix in the middle of the draft.
Tomlin overdrafts Pickett, signs retreads Trubisky, Fields, Wilson, and Rodgers.
Sure Kahn is the GM but if you actually think Kahn adds and subtracts players without Tomlin’s approval you’re delusional.
Nineteen years is far too long for any coach to be with one organization.
An organization needs to refresh itself and bring in younger, innovative, new ideas, and adapt to the times. It’s no different than any other business.
This is stale!
 
If you want to build a strong and sturdy house you need the
slashsteel said:
Performance is two fold it is based off individual performance and schematics. A team can under or over perform based off of schematics and X and O efficiency or deficiency.

One game can be attributed to players underperforming or overperforming. Not to be confused with trends which the head coach will get approval or flamed for.

Not sure fans think the Steelers have bad coaches across the board. As far as Meyer he had good and bad moments probably a hard evaluation.

PFF and its stats . Stats can be so misleading and subjective. So I will have to say there is no proof that they are accurate.
Click to expand...
yes, absolutely correct.
That’s why I work through all the noise and make my opinion based on my good old fashion eye test.
After watching and being involved with thousands of football games, I feel it’s the best method for me to make opinions on players and coaches
 
steelhurt said:
Keep in mind that Tomlin has a lot of input in building this roster every year.
Some act like Tomlin is just dropped into training camp each year and told to coach this team. He builds this team!
Example… Sean Peyton drafts franchise QB Bo Nix in the middle of the draft.
Tomlin overdrafts Pickett, signs retreads Trubisky, Fields, Wilson, and Rodgers.
Sure Kahn is the GM but if you actually think Kahn adds and subtracts players without Tomlin’s approval you’re delusional.
Nineteen years is far too long for any coach to be with one organization.
An organization needs to refresh itself and bring in younger, innovative, new ideas, and adapt to the times. It’s no different than any other business.
This is stale!
Click to expand...
If it is indeed stale, one of you Yinzers needs to go down to Mancini‘s and get a fresh loaf!!
 
Coryea said:
Reid and Belichick have won a playoff game without a HOF QB. Joe Gibbs won 3 super bowls without a franchise guy, Cowher won almost as many playoff games without Ben as Tomlin did with Ben, Mike Vrabel beat Brady and Belicheat in NE with Tannehill, Harbaugh beat Brady and Belicheat in NE with Flacco. If you're a HOF coach and one of the highest paid in the NFL it's not unreasonable to be expected to win a playoff game here or there without a HOF QB. He hasn't even been competitive.
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I liked how you raised the bar to HOF. They had QBs like Bledsoe and McNabb, pro bowlers. Tomlin had Duck Hodges and Kenny Pickett. I'm not excusing Tomlin and said he needs to go. As for Gibbs, I think he's the greatest coach of all time for the reason you mentioned.
 
Hypocycloids said:
We’ve complained about our O line for quite some time.
Now that they have vastly improved, is it because we put them in proper spots or because we now have better players in those spots?
Click to expand...
what if the OL coach has been asking for Dylan Cook to start all season and got overruled because of his lack of pedigree?
 
Coryea said:
Yeah if a guy is running down the field and is stripped, that's not on the coach or a WR drops a pass right in his hands.

The problem is that the same garbage has been going on for almost a decade across multiple QB's, OC's, GM's, DC's defensive players, etc.
Going against very good running offenses and Olines, and we constantly trot out 2 Dlinemen, 4 LB's, 5 DB's expecting to stop the run. The sideways passing that has been going on since Hailey's final year. Not showing up early in playoff games. Constantly trying to cover wr's with ILB's than can't cover.
Click to expand...
I pay little attention to other teams. I do end up watching the Eagles a good bit. I know they do the same 2 DL thing, and they have Jordan Davis and Jalen Carter. The Bears tore them up this year when the Birds were doing that. Williamson has said it is common around the league. It's dumb, but the Steelers aren't the only team doing it.
 
DesertSteel said:
I liked how you raised the bar to HOF. They had QBs like Bledsoe and McNabb, pro bowlers. Tomlin had Duck Hodges and Kenny Pickett. I'm not excusing Tomlin and said he needs to go. As for Gibbs, I think he's the greatest coach of all time for the reason you mentioned.
Click to expand...
Russell Wilson may be in the HOF, he was a pro bowl QB a few times. Tomlin drafted Pickett.
 
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