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Is it time to bench Jarvis Jones?

Coach said:
We agree on the first part. Did you know Chickillo was a 5-star athletic college recruit with football bloodlines? He was badly miscast in a Miami defense who had a bozo for a head coach and his equally clueless buddy as the DC.

Someone here said Steeler Depot panned him.

Not so.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...lm-room-outside-linebacker-anthony-chickillo/
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Would love to see Chickillo turn into a sleeper pick superstar. But this idea that it is about Tomlin's ego. No its about money and trying to squeeze something out of the dish rag JJ before they throw him in the garbage. Tomlin knows what JJ is. He has watched every play since he was drafted plus camp. He doesn't feel there is something better on the roster because there probably isn't. But if you look at the fact that they are rotating him or that they took an olb in the first round that Jarvis isnt in their long term plans. If Chickillo progresses by next summer he will take the job. If he can't Jarvis will be gone the summer after.
 
madinsomniac said:
Jones is average. I wouldnt call him a liability. He isnt much of a playmaker but they cant all be. He got better vs the run... And that is all i asked from him
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But this system absolutely relies on OLB being above average. At least one must be a star, and the other must be at least good. JJ is neither.
 
POP said:
But this system absolutely relies on OLB being above average. At least one must be a star, and the other must be at least good. JJ is neither.
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Which is part of the reason the defense is average at best. But in fairness better than last year. Unfortunately, you can't fix everything at once and you certainly can't fix it during the season. JJ probably outperformed his previous seasons substantialy but that isn't saying a hell of a lot.
 
insaniti said:
Reading is fundamental. You said Hampton and Tuitt are ends, I'm going to assume that you mean Heyward and Tuitt...and yes they are ends, and if you READ before that, I stated that McClendon and ANY combination of Heyward and Tuitt...and then went on to praise what I've seen from Heyward and Tuitt, but they cannot be compared to two of the greatest at their position when trying to compare stats from two different defenses from two different era's.

Also, teams don't run to the side that the back is dominant handed, they run to the D's weakest side OR to their OL strongest side. We run more to the defenses right because of DeCasto's pulling ability and Foster's lack of pulling ability. Has nothing to do with which hand the RB writes with.



I don't need to assume what you do and don't see, I can tell from your posts. You said Jones can't set the edge, when in fact he does an excellent job at setting the edge. You said Jones can't handle coverage, when in fact he is coverage quite a bit. It's something we ask ALL our LBers to do. Something that Chikillo doesn't have the skillset for yet. He's still learning the nuances of playing LBer while converting from DE.

Also when did I ever bring up Tomlin in this entire conversation, this is all about the ability of said players and your desire to focus solely on their stats. I can find just as many situations where Tomlin chose to play a player and they were worse, MUCH worse than the player in front of them and he reverted back to the original player. Shamarko Thomas comes to mind there. This isn't another coach Tomlin conversation... this is a conversation about our OLBers and the fact that you clearly have an issue with Jones and can't evaluate him without your hate for him and biased towards Chikillo. It's funny that YOU think Dupree has hit a rookie wall of sorts, while Tomlin thinks he has out played Moats and has been giving him the majority of the reps.

You are quick to point out when Tomlin is wrong, are you as quick to point out when you are wrong, or can you still tell the difference between a player running a 4.45 and a 4.43 40 yard dash? Have you admitted to being completely and utterly wrong about Polamalu, or are you going to stick to the story that it was a different "Coach" poster? Simply put, you are wrong about Jones.
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You, sir, aren't paying attention. I've seen Jones look like an uncoordinated geek in coverage, and miss tackles.

I already pointed out he's missed 10 tackles and made just nine ( most assisted ) in the past 7 games.

You avoid that point and all the data that point to Jones being perry bad.

Jones is no beast vs the run, and he doesn't excel at anything there, including setting the edge.

I think you're saying oh, he can do it based on a select few plays while in truth he's losing more battles than winning.

Getting QB pressures you say? Tomlin said "He hasn’t necessarily produced the numbers from a pressure or sack standpoint yet."

Below is an article from October 2015:


>>>Speculation was rampant this offseason that Steelers linebacker Jarvis Jones was entering a make-or-break season.

Jones is the only Steelers linebacker with over 100 snaps without a sack. Head coach Mike Tomlin says part of the reason for that has been a lack of pass-rushing opportunities, especially in games against the 49ers and Rams.

"We would bring the left outside linebackers probably three to four times more often than the right outside linebackers. Such is life,” Tomlin said. “We are going to do things that give us a chance to win.”

The numbers from Pro Football Focus don't support Tomlin's claim. Jones actually has rushed the passer more than James Harrison, Arthur Moats or first-round pick Bud Dupree via the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review. Additionally, James Harrison has one sack along with five quarterback pressures while Jones comes up empty in both categories. Jones has rotated on the right side with Harrison, who leads Steelers outside linebackers with 175 snaps, according to Football Outsiders.

“I think he’s been solid," Tomlin added via the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette. "I like the violence in which he is playing. His hands have been heavy. He’s done a nice job in the run game. He hasn’t necessarily produced the numbers from a pressure or sack standpoint yet."

Snap counts: Steelers linebackers via Football Outsiders
PLAYER DEF SNAPS DEF SNAP PCT SACKS
94-L.Timmons 280 100 1
92-J.Harrison 161 57.50% 1
48-B.Dupree 145 51.80% 2
50-R.Shazier 132 47.10% 1
55-A.Moats 125 44.60% 1.5
95-J.Jones 115 41.10% 0
51-S.Spence 104 37.10% 1
98-V.Williams 48 17.10% 0
57-T.Garvin 8 2.90% 0
56-A.Chickillo 0 0.00% 0
The Steelers have racked up 14 sacks through four games without any from Jones, good for fourth in the NFL. They are well on their way to surpassing last season's total of 33.

h/t: Tribune-Review

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http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/pittsburgh-steelers-jarvis-jones-mike-tomlin-defense-sacks-100715
 
This argument is getting old. Now you're trying to pull an article from OCTOBER to prove a point. Your boy Chikillo isn't getting playing time because he isn't outperforming anyone in practice. He did nothing in the game where he got significant snaps because of Harrison's injury. This is still only Jones third season, and he's in constant rotation with Harrison (and he's being moved all over the field, just like Harrison and Dupree and Moats). They are keeping ALL the OLBers fresh, and it has paid dividends, we are getting more pressure on the QB than we have the last few years, we've already surpassed last years total sack numbers as a team. And that is exactly what this is, it's a TEAM. You hate Jones, we get it, but the numbers you keep spouting off are just numbers.

You conveniently only post Jones missed tackle stats (which, isn't a real stat, much like tackles aren't the best barometer for how a defensive player is playing) and nothing from the rest of the LBing crew. I watch each and every game, I see all the times that Jones is pressuring the QB, all the times that he's held just like Harrison, all the times he walks the OT back into the backfield, I see him hold up the TE while walking down the line allowing Shazier, Spence, or Timmons to come in and get the RB on the ground while engaging the the blocker. He does a lot of the little things that don't show up on the stat sheets. He might be well on his way to stardom or the next great Steelers OLBer, but he's hardly a liability, and he's hardly the "worst starting OLBer in 30 years".

It's the Lawrence Timmons **** all over again, I didn't want him in the first round either, but he has become our best defensive player and I'm glad we have him. I didn't want Jones, I wanted Eifert, we got Jones, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just pile on because I didn't like the pick. I can be objective and see that his play has improved and he isn't hurting the defense being out there like you claim he is.
 
insaniti said:
This argument is getting old. Now you're trying to pull an article from OCTOBER to prove a point. Your boy Chikillo isn't getting playing time because he isn't outperforming anyone in practice. He did nothing in the game where he got significant snaps because of Harrison's injury. This is still only Jones third season, and he's in constant rotation with Harrison (and he's being moved all over the field, just like Harrison and Dupree and Moats). They are keeping ALL the OLBers fresh, and it has paid dividends, we are getting more pressure on the QB than we have the last few years, we've already surpassed last years total sack numbers as a team. And that is exactly what this is, it's a TEAM. You hate Jones, we get it, but the numbers you keep spouting off are just numbers.

You conveniently only post Jones missed tackle stats (which, isn't a real stat, much like tackles aren't the best barometer for how a defensive player is playing) and nothing from the rest of the LBing crew. I watch each and every game, I see all the times that Jones is pressuring the QB, all the times that he's held just like Harrison, all the times he walks the OT back into the backfield, I see him hold up the TE while walking down the line allowing Shazier, Spence, or Timmons to come in and get the RB on the ground while engaging the the blocker. He does a lot of the little things that don't show up on the stat sheets. He might be well on his way to stardom or the next great Steelers OLBer, but he's hardly a liability, and he's hardly the "worst starting OLBer in 30 years".

It's the Lawrence Timmons **** all over again, I didn't want him in the first round either, but he has become our best defensive player and I'm glad we have him. I didn't want Jones, I wanted Eifert, we got Jones, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just pile on because I didn't like the pick. I can be objective and see that his play has improved and he isn't hurting the defense being out there like you claim he is.
Click to expand...


Insaniti,

A few things:

1 ) Jones is almost finished with his third season. He's not going to be as good as Timmons. Those are long odds....

2 ) Missed tackles often result in big plays. It's an important stat, just like QB pressures, sacks, tackles, etc... Jones rates at the bottom. Stats are best used as no one makes them up. The good players at LB have good stats and the bad ones do not. It's not an accident.

3 ) I will successfully argue that Jones is the worst season starting Outside Linebacker the Steelers have had in a long long time. It's a no-brainer.

4 ) Jones is in a rotation because he's not good enough, and Harrison is very old. Top players do not give up a large portion of their defensive snaps, which should not be confused for standard rotation to get a break.

I'll close here. Perhaps your opinion of Jones is much higher than mine. If you would not mind, where do you rate him as a starting OLB in comparison to his peers. I'll list a breakdown and tell you where I see Jones. For Depth, I'll list some other Steeler OLB's


10. Hall of fame player ( Hamm )

9. Pro Bowl player in his prime ( I would rate *Harrison, Porter, Lloyd and *Greene, in their prime years here )

8. Pro bowl player, slightly past his prime ( Russell, Brown and Wooldey ). Assume Wooldey is motivated

7. A very good player, worthy of near franchise money on his 2nd contract ( I would rate Gildon, and Timmons here )

6. Slightly better than average starting player who produces and seldom comes off the field ( Hinkle, Worilds, Emmons )

5. Average NFL starter

4. Below Average NFL starter who would not start on most NFL teams ( I would rate Jones here )

3. A decent role player for the defense and special teams, but nothing beyond that

2. A fringe NFL player...the 42nd to 47th man on the roster

1 . A practice squad player

My choice for Jarvis Jones is #4, but I could argue #3. What's yours? We could be close.

Regards,

Coach
 
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coach, your argument is valid. Maybe not for chickillo, but valid none the less.

History betrays your argument, but he (Jarvis) isn't one I would look to keep either. But Tombert has his own history of sorry contracts. (cortez allen) And some very good ones too (Antonio brown)
 
Black & Gold Bleeder said:
coach, your argument is valid. Maybe not for chickillo, but valid none the less.

History betrays your argument, but he (Jarvis) isn't one I would look to keep either. But Tombert has his own history of sorry contracts. (cortez allen) And some very good ones too (Antonio brown)
Click to expand...

Jarvis is a Hood like disappointment. I have no ill will to Jones. He seems to give a good effort. The only Steelers I really didn't like was Mendenhall.
 
Coach said:
Insaniti,


10. Hall of fame player ( Hamm )

9. Pro Bowl player in his prime ( I would rate *Harrison, Porter, Lloyd and *Greene, in their prime years here )

8. Pro bowl player, slightly past his prime ( Russell, Brown and Wooldey ). Assume Wooldey is motivated

7. A very good player, worthy of near franchise money on his 2nd contract ( I would rate Gildon, and Timmons here )

6. Slightly better than average starting player who produces and seldom comes off the field ( Hinkle, Worilds, Emmons )

5. Average NFL starter

4. Below Average NFL starter who would not start on most NFL teams ( I would rate Jones here )

3. A decent role player for the defense and special teams, but nothing beyond that

2. A fringe NFL player...the 42nd to 47th man on the roster

1 . A practice squad player

My choice for Jarvis Jones is #4, but I could argue #3. What's yours? We could be close.

Regards,

Coach
Click to expand...

You see where you placed "Mean" Joe Greene, Coach?

That's why its difficult for many of us to take your football acumen seriously.
 
Coach said:
Jarvis is a Hood like disappointment. I have no ill will to Jones. He seems to give a good effort. The only Steelers I really didn't like was Mendenhall.
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I think he does hustle, which is why he put up good #s in college. He still does. But he doesn't have enough skill in any one area to produce much of anything: not strong, not fast, not all that athletic.

I am with you on Mendenhall - terrible player. Always got tripped up before he could make a big run, never seemed to beak that one last tackle. And he had no heart, as proven by him just quitting the game.

Not a fan of the FAT Woodley (the non-fat version was good though).

Hood was another waste.
 
POP said:
I think he does hustle, which is why he put up good #s in college. He still does. But he doesn't have enough skill in any one area to produce much of anything: not strong, not fast, not all that athletic.

I am with you on Mendenhall - terrible player. Always got tripped up before he could make a big run, never seemed to beak that one last tackle. And he had no heart, as proven by him just quitting the game.

Not a fan of the FAT Woodley (the non-fat version was good though).

Hood was another waste.
Click to expand...

Jarvis was a decent college player but can't get big enough and strong enough (I still blame his back) to move up to the next level where everyone is at least as good as he was in college.

There are other players like Mendenhall who have the physical gifts to play pro ball but really don't like it and are just in it to make some money for a few years and then do something else. Worilds and Bam Morris are other Steelers who come to mind.

Agree on Woodley. It looked like a good signing at the time.

I don't think that Hood was a bad player overall, he was just a bad fit for our 3-4 system.
 
Ron Burgundy said:
Jarvis was a decent college player but can't get big enough and strong enough (I still blame his back) to move up to the next level where everyone is at least as good as he was in college.

There are other players like Mendenhall who have the physical gifts to play pro ball but really don't like it and are just in it to make some money for a few years and then do something else. Worilds and Bam Morris are other Steelers who come to mind.

Agree on Woodley. It looked like a good signing at the time.

I don't think that Hood was a bad player overall, he was just a bad fit for our 3-4 system.
Click to expand...

Agree on all. That Hood pick was just bad. But, to be fair, there wasn't that many great picks after him either.
http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/fulldraft?season=2009&round=round1#round1
 
Coach said:
Is it time to bench Jarvis Jones?

In the past seven games, Jarvis Jones has but 9 total tackles ( Solo and assisted ). This very poor for a starting player, even he was a nose tackle. While Jones did make an interception recently, it's quite possible has last in the NFL.

I continue to see limited pressures, sloppy tackling, the inability to hold point vs the run, and zero in terms of pass coverage or special teams.

Jones seldom has his name called. More often than not I see him standing near a pile after the ball carrier has been tackled.

At this point in time, would it make sense to give Chickillo a chance to take some of Jarvis Jones snaps? I think so.

Our pass rush can use some help. Maybe Chickillo won't do any better, but then again maybe he will. He's got fresh legs.
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You're a racist.
 
insaniti said:
This argument is getting old. Now you're trying to pull an article from OCTOBER to prove a point. Your boy Chikillo isn't getting playing time because he isn't outperforming anyone in practice. He did nothing in the game where he got significant snaps because of Harrison's injury. This is still only Jones third season, and he's in constant rotation with Harrison (and he's being moved all over the field, just like Harrison and Dupree and Moats). They are keeping ALL the OLBers fresh, and it has paid dividends, we are getting more pressure on the QB than we have the last few years, we've already surpassed last years total sack numbers as a team. And that is exactly what this is, it's a TEAM. You hate Jones, we get it, but the numbers you keep spouting off are just numbers.

You conveniently only post Jones missed tackle stats (which, isn't a real stat, much like tackles aren't the best barometer for how a defensive player is playing) and nothing from the rest of the LBing crew. I watch each and every game, I see all the times that Jones is pressuring the QB, all the times that he's held just like Harrison, all the times he walks the OT back into the backfield, I see him hold up the TE while walking down the line allowing Shazier, Spence, or Timmons to come in and get the RB on the ground while engaging the the blocker. He does a lot of the little things that don't show up on the stat sheets. He might be well on his way to stardom or the next great Steelers OLBer, but he's hardly a liability, and he's hardly the "worst starting OLBer in 30 years".

It's the Lawrence Timmons **** all over again, I didn't want him in the first round either, but he has become our best defensive player and I'm glad we have him. I didn't want Jones, I wanted Eifert, we got Jones, but that doesn't mean I'm going to just pile on because I didn't like the pick. I can be objective and see that his play has improved and he isn't hurting the defense being out there like you claim he is.
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But what you don't see, you silly Goose, is that Chicharron, has the perfect head size. Compared to every linebacker in the hall of fame, his dome size falls right in the median range. How can that not count for 5 or 6 sacks before he even sees the field?
 
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What an original thread.
 
Coach said:
Insaniti,

A few things:

1 ) Jones is almost finished with his third season. He's not going to be as good as Timmons. Those are long odds....

2 ) Missed tackles often result in big plays. It's an important stat, just like QB pressures, sacks, tackles, etc... Jones rates at the bottom. Stats are best used as no one makes them up. The good players at LB have good stats and the bad ones do not. It's not an accident.

3 ) I will successfully argue that Jones is the worst season starting Outside Linebacker the Steelers have had in a long long time. It's a no-brainer.

4 ) Jones is in a rotation because he's not good enough, and Harrison is very old. Top players do not give up a large portion of their defensive snaps, which should not be confused for standard rotation to get a break.

I'll close here. Perhaps your opinion of Jones is much higher than mine. If you would not mind, where do you rate him as a starting OLB in comparison to his peers. I'll list a breakdown and tell you where I see Jones. For Depth, I'll list some other Steeler OLB's


10. Hall of fame player ( Hamm )

9. Pro Bowl player in his prime ( I would rate *Harrison, Porter, Lloyd and *Greene, in their prime years here )

8. Pro bowl player, slightly past his prime ( Russell, Brown and Wooldey ). Assume Wooldey is motivated

7. A very good player, worthy of near franchise money on his 2nd contract ( I would rate Gildon, and Timmons here )

6. Slightly better than average starting player who produces and seldom comes off the field ( Hinkle, Worilds, Emmons )

5. Average NFL starter

4. Below Average NFL starter who would not start on most NFL teams ( I would rate Jones here )

3. A decent role player for the defense and special teams, but nothing beyond that

2. A fringe NFL player...the 42nd to 47th man on the roster

1 . A practice squad player

My choice for Jarvis Jones is #4, but I could argue #3. What's yours? We could be close.

Regards,

Coach
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Again, conveniently only posting Jones "missed tackles" stats. Which is not an official stat anymore than tackles is an official stat. So who's keeping track of them, you?

You will THINK you've successfully argued that Jones is the worst starting OLB in blah blah blah blah...but you've only convinced yourself of such nonsense. I've pointed out over and over how your stats do not prove that Jones isn't playing well, only that the defense is funneling players towards the middle of the field. Jones is in rotation because they decided at the beginning of the year that Harrison couldn't handle a full starters worth of snaps, they also decided that the best way to keep ALL of their OLBers fresh, while giving them ALL plenty of snaps in case of an injury was to rotate them consistently.

http://pit.247sports.com/Bolt/Joey-...tion-of-Steelers-outside-linebackers-41207045

There's an article about the rotation from Joey Porter.

Also your rating system makes absolutely no sense, aside from butchering Woodley's name, TWICE in four words...you list him as someone passed his prime? He was never passed his prime when he was here. He got injured a lot and couldn't stay healthy. At that point we had too much money tied up in LOLBers to keep both him and Worilds.

As for where I rank Jones, He's an average NFL starter. He does a lot of things well that you just won't give him credit for.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN Home Page/2015/12/steelers-film-room-jarvis-jones-vs-seahawks/

There's some film of him playing pretty well against Seattle even tho his stat sheet listed 1 assisted tackle and that's it.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN Home Page/2015/11/steelers-film-room-jarvis-jones-vs-raiders/

Here is vs the Raiders just pushing back the OT consistently and getting pressure, again a game his stat line was 1 tackle

He's not putting up monster stats, but he is playing well and no where near a liability or the worst starting OLB we've had, he's not even in the conversation of worst starting OLB in the league right now.
 
insaniti Again, conveniently only posting Jones "missed tackles" stats. Which is not an official stat anymore than tackles is an official stat. So who's keeping track of them, you?
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No, Steeler Depot.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN Home Page/2015/12/week-13-missed-tackles-breakdown/

You will THINK you've successfully argued that Jones is the worst starting OLB in blah blah blah blah...but you've only convinced yourself of such nonsense. I've pointed out over and over how your stats do not prove that Jones isn't playing well, only that the defense is funneling players towards the middle of the field. Jones is in rotation because they decided at the beginning of the year that Harrison couldn't handle a full starters worth of snaps, they also decided that the best way to keep ALL of their OLBers fresh, while giving them ALL plenty of snaps in case of an injury was to rotate them consistently.
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I think he's our worst season starting ( Not 1-4 game type of sub ) LB in 20+ years, and I'll match his lack of productivity in comparison to his peers rather easily.



Also your rating system makes absolutely no sense, aside from butchering Woodley's name, TWICE in four words...you list him as someone passed his prime? He was never passed his prime when he was here. He got injured a lot and couldn't stay healthy. At that point we had too much money tied up in LOLBers to keep both him and Worilds.
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Woodley in his prime was a good player, far better than Jones.

As for where I rank Jones, He's an average NFL starter. He does a lot of things well that you just won't give him credit for.
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ROLMAO! Really? Okay man, now if you want to be buried with information to the contrary, I'm game. There are 64 starting OLB's in the NFL. By saying Jones is average, you are pretty much saying he's better than 32 other OLB's. If you want to break it down on 3-4 defenses I can quickly show you how wrong you are. Oh--the " he does lots of things well I won't give him credit card " can be applied to any player. No--Jones does not do many things well at all. IF he didm he would not be taken off the field as frequently, and would have better production! Stop acting like he's a nose tackle, and getting double teams for the better of the defense.
 
Jarvis isn't going anywhere this year.

He's not going to be benched, he's going to continue to split reps with James.
 
Hey Insaniti,

So I decided to compare Jarvis Jones, a player you think is an average NFL starter to the rest of the Linebackers in the NFL in terms of Sacks, Tackles, and pass defense.

Here's where he rates:


2.0 sacks. 64 linebackers have more! And he's tied with 15 others.

25 tackles. 128 linebackers have more. And he's tied with 8 other players.

Passes defended: Jones has one pass defended ( his interception ). 81 other linebackers have more passes defended and he's tied with 59 other linebackers that have 1.

Conclusion, Jones is below average as a pass rusher, way below average as a tackler, and way below average as a pass defense. Average NFL starter you say? He's rotated out from a 37-year-old player!

If you want to hang your hat that he's good defending the edge ( I think he's easily blocked more often than not watch the games! ) then go ahead and try to quantify the other linebackers are not as good as Jones is in this department.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/stats/b...FL&year=season_2015&sort=130&timeframe=ToDate
 
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