Is it time to bench Jarvis Jones?

[bermudasteel]

I wonder who made that TIMELY interception INSIDE the REDZONE when we played the Colts? His name escapes me...

[video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000595997/Colts-Matt-Hasselbeck-is-intercepted-by-Jarvis-Jones[/video]

 

[POP]

There is no argument to be made that Jarvis Jones is anything but a complete disappointment. That isn't the question. The question is if there is enough on the roster at this current moment to justify him not playing at all. Harrison cannot play an entire game anymore. If you want the best of what he has now, he needs to play about a 1/3- 1/2 of the game. So it is down to Moats and Dupree. You are not moving Dupree to the right. So I guess they could play Dupree for the entire game, move Moats (who lets face it, really isn't substantially better then Jones) and have him share the snaps with Harrison. I often don't agree with the coaches, but I will defer to them on this one.

I have no argument with anything you stated: JJ was a bad pick, but are we really better off with not playing him at all this season? I am not going to argue, that, at this point, we are better off getting _some_ reps in games, considering 92 can't go every down, etc. I guess I assumed the thrust of this thread was whether or not JJ stinks. But if the narrative is "should he not play another down this season" I can see how that is different.

 

[POP]

I wonder who made that TIMELY interception INSIDE the REDZONE when we played the Colts? His name escapes me...

[video]http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000595997/Colts-Matt-Hasselbeck-is-intercepted-by-Jarvis-Jones[/video]

See, now this post seems to be arguing that maybe JJ isn't that bad. That is where I disagree. I posted his complete stats; one pick does not make up for being virtually invisible the rest of the season. By that logic, Blake rocks, since he has a few picks. Is that your assertion as well?

 

[POP]

That isn't realistic. I have no idea what this guy is so lets give him a shot cause the other guy sucks. Like I said, I'm no Tomlin supporter, but he sees the real film and he knows these guys and more importantly he knows what they know about the defense. Sometimes you live with a guy who isn't a dynamic player because he at least knows where to line up, his assignment and won't **** it up for the guys who are dynamic. While I agree that is not good enough for that particular position, it doesn't mean I'd put in Chickillo to find out at this point. That is a camp battle.

The only problem I have in assuming coaches know best, and we can assume they know who to start....ego. If coaches/team makes decisions based on protecting their ego (i.e. don't want to admit a first round pick is a bust, hence, the most curious comments from Tomlin about JJ's play being "solid") then they could very well be playing players who should not be playing. I believe that comes into play with JJ. We've had 3 years to examine his play, and virtually nothing points to him ever being a decent player. Nothing.

 

[POP]

Perhaps we have a difference of opinion between what constitutes a weak link for the defense. Jones is the least productive OLB In our system since.....perhaps the swtich to the 3-4 in the 1980's. I would guess Jones will finish the year with 2-4 sacks, and very few tackles.

He's very limited in terms of making plays. He's neither big, nor strong, nor fast. He's too slow to be developed in coverage. And can't add anything too special teams kick coverage. He misses a lot of tackles ( 10 ) and makes few ( just 9 total solo and assisted in the last 7 games )

Carlos Emmons who was a later round draft pick was noticeably better.

If our defense could find upgrades over Jarvis Jones and Antowan Blake, how much better would the defense be?

Significantly in my opinion. And the burn of it is most of us think there are better than Blake on the team. Yes--Chickillo is a bit of an unknown, but when you have the worst starter at OLB in perhaps the past 30 years, why not give some of the snaps to someone else?

That is the bottom line: JJ is the worst starting OLB we have had since we went to the 3-4. Think about that for a minute. Is he as good as the early 80's crew of Cole, Ham, Merriweather, et al? Of course not. As good as the mid and late 80's? Nope. He couldn't hold Lloyd's jock strap. Early and mid 90's? He is no where near a Brown (played both inside and outside), Gildon (still holds team record in sacks) or Lloyd or Greene. Obviously, he isn't anywhere near as good as the 2000 crew, of Harrison, Haggans (the 2nd worst OLB maybe, and he was even better than JJ). He was nowhere near as good as the pre-fat Woodley, not even close. All things considered, this OLB unit is the weakest we have probably seen in our lifetimes, and it's not from lack of drafting OLB high, matter of fact, this OLB group has a collection of higher picks than ever. Almost NONE of the other OLB units had first rounders on them. Collectively, the LB unit has FOUR first round picks on this team. That has never been the case; we used to create top units not even using first rounders at all.

 

[Harry_BZAC]

Well....not a huge JJ fan either, but he is playing better this year, Even though he's not getting sacks he seems stronger and better able to bull rush than before. So I don't really see the need to bash him right now.

 

[Coach]

100% all opinion. Earlier in the year, you were all about replacing Bud, he sucked, he was a bust, he wasn't doing anything production...well lets take a look at the numbers (since that's all you really care about). Last 7 games you say?

Bud Dupree - 8 total tackles, 6 solo. 1 sack.

Arthur Moats - 16 total tackles, 10 solo. 1.5 sacks.

James Harrison - 15 total tackles (7 coming in one game), 12 solo. 4 sacks (3 coming in one game).

Notice something here? low tackle numbers from ALL our outside linebackers, and teams are running towards our left side more often than the right. Lets just do this here...

Lawrence Timmons - 42 tackles, 27 solo. 1.5 sacks

Our defense has always been to funnel the tackles towards the middle LBer, the OLB is there to pressure the QB and set the edge. Considering teams run to our right side 65% of the time, they obviously see a weakness on that side of the field and our OLB are STILL not putting up earth shattering stats.

If our message board could find an upgrade over the self proclaimed "coach", how much better would the posting environment be?

Significantly in my opinion.

You can look up what Harrison, Worilds, or Porter used to do in term of tackles. They had quite a bit, especially Harrison, so no our defense has not always relied on a funnel like deployment to make tackles. Past OLBs in the same system either had the power to diengage and tackle, or the speed and quicklness to avoid lineman and make plays. Jarvis Jones has neither!

Debating these points would not be wise. If you read my stuff, I think Dupree has hit the rookie wall for now. Jones as a first round pick should be much better than a very old Harrison, and a fringe like 3-4 starter in Moats. Yet he's behind them. They say it takes 3 seasons to judge a player. If it walks like a duck...


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WoriJa99.htm


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PortJo00.htm


Now look a Jones! http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneJa05.htm

 

[POP]

no, but if you go through the Steelerdepot archives, you can find the article on Chickillo that sez he did almost nothing.

That may be accurate, but, come on, every OLB needs some time in games before they get ANY good. Chick has had virtually no time out there. JJ has been out there for 3 seasons (other than injuries). Lloyd wasn't an instant star, and Harrison definitely was not. Chick has not come anywhere close to getting enough reps for us to know if he has much potential or not. I am not saying it's time to experiment now, but it probably would have been prudent to get him out there a while ago. We KNOW what we have in JJ: virtually nothing.

 

[Coach]

That is the bottom line: JJ is the worst starting OLB we have had since we went to the 3-4. Think about that for a minute. Is he as good as the early 80's crew of Cole, Ham, Merriweather, et al? Of course not. As good as the mid and late 80's? Nope. He couldn't hold Lloyd's jock strap. Early and mid 90's? He is no where near a Brown (played both inside and outside), Gildon (still holds team record in sacks) or Lloyd or Greene. Obviously, he isn't anywhere near as good as the 2000 crew, of Harrison, Haggans (the 2nd worst OLB maybe, and he was even better than JJ). He was nowhere near as good as the pre-fat Woodley, not even close. All things considered, this OLB unit is the weakest we have probably seen in our lifetimes, and it's not from lack of drafting OLB high, matter of fact, this OLB group has a collection of higher picks than ever. Almost NONE of the other OLB units had first rounders on them. Collectively, the LB unit has FOUR first round picks on this team. That has never been the case; we used to create top units not even using first rounders at all.

Correct.

Just watch out for the poster Insaniti. His alleged football IQ rivals Bill Walsh's.

 

[Coach]

That may be accurate, but, come on, every OLB needs some time in games before they get ANY good. Chick has had virtually no time out there. JJ has been out there for 3 seasons (other than injuries). Lloyd wasn't an instant star, and Harrison definitely was not. Chick has not come anywhere close to getting enough reps for us to know if he has much potential or not. I am not saying it's time to experiment now, but it probably would have been prudent to get him out there a while ago. We KNOW what we have in JJ: virtually nothing.

Correct! In Jason Gildon's first year as a starter he had 59 tackles and 7 sacks in 13 games started. This blows away Jones' entire career. We do not know what Chickillo would do, but he can't be muh worse and might prove to be better.

 

[SteelerSask2]

All I kn ow from coaching is that the coach is there all the time taking advice from his assistants and using his own eyes. Does that make him right all the time. Hell no. I called for the Jacoby Jones bench along time ago. And I think there is a good argument for Boykin. But Chickillo over JJ. I doubt it.

 

[POP]

All I kn ow from coaching is that the coach is there all the time taking advice from his assistants and using his own eyes. Does that make him right all the time. Hell no. I called for the Jacoby Jones bench along time ago. And I think there is a good argument for Boykin. But Chickillo over JJ. I doubt it.

But you are assuming MT isn't making decisions based on serving his ego. He is.

 

[Coach]

All I kn ow from coaching is that the coach is there all the time taking advice from his assistants and using his own eyes. Does that make him right all the time. Hell no. I called for the Jacoby Jones bench along time ago. And I think there is a good argument for Boykin. But Chickillo over JJ. I doubt it.

Was Cam Thomas any better than Tuitt as a rookie? I would say no, and he ( Tuitt ) should have received more playing time. Should Bryant have played sooner as a rookie? I say yes. I think Tomlin was a game or two late in the promotions here.

Or Jesse James was pretty bad in the pre-season. But when given a chance he showed signs of being decent! Prior to this, us fans did not know about James in an NFL game. It took an injury for James to play. Look at him now!

But us fans do know that Jarvis Jones is a weak link.

The risk of giving Chikillo a series or two on defense is minimal.

PS: Wheaton should return kickoffs.

 

[mdk2]

Was Cam Thomas any better than Tuitt as a rookie? I would say no, and he ( Tuitt ) should have received more playing time. Should Bryant have played sooner as a rookie? I say yes. I think Tomlin was a game or two late in the promotions here.

Or Jesse James was pretty bad in the pre-season. But when given a chance he showed signs of being decent! Prior to this, us fans did not know about James in an NFL game. It took an injury for James to play. Look at him now!

But us fans do know that Jarvis Jones is a weak link.

The risk of giving Chikillo a series or two on defense is minimal.

PS: Wheaton should return kickoffs.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean should? He already is.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Coach does not see the games.

 

[insaniti]

You can look up what Harrison, Worilds, or Porter used to do in term of tackles. They had quite a bit, especially Harrison, so no our defense has not always relied on a funnel like deployment to make tackles. Past OLBs in the same system either had the power to diengage and tackle, or the speed and quicklness to avoid lineman and make plays. Jarvis Jones has neither!

Debating these points would not be wise. If you read my stuff, I think Dupree has hit the rookie wall for now. Jones as a first round pick should be much better than a very old Harrison, and a fringe like 3-4 starter in Moats. Yet he's behind them. They say it takes 3 seasons to judge a player. If it walks like a duck...


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrJa23.htm


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/W/WoriJa99.htm


http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PortJo00.htm


Now look a Jones! http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/J/JoneJa05.htm

Yes, lets look at defenses from past years with some of the best players at key positions to contribute as well when trying to compare STATS of Jarvis Jones. You said Jones doesn't set the edge, when in fact he does a VERY good job of setting the edge, which is why teams are running to our left side 65% of the time.

You want to compare Porter and Harrison to Jones when they were in their early to prime years when you had two of the best 3-4 lineman EVER eating up blocks, plugging up lanes and doing more than McClendon and any combination of Heyward and Tuitt can do. And I love what Tuitt and Heyward bring to the table. I think they can be very dominant, but they don't compare to Hampton and Smith.

You are looking STRICTLY at the numbers, which I already proved to you is the wrong way to look at things. Harrison is getting MORE snaps than Jones, yet his stats aren't that much better than his. Dupree and Moats are splitting snaps pretty equally, and neither of them are any better than Jones in the stat dept, and they are seeing more action in the running game because teams are running their way MORE.

Jones is not the worst starting OLB we've had, and if you actually WATCHED the games, you'd actually see that. Jones is applying pressure quite often, he's stuffing lanes, and he's usually around the ball. A lot of the things he is doing now isn't showing up on the stats sheet, he is even in coverage a lot more than he was, something you said he can't do (and that coverage is exactly what got him his INT in the redzone).

You can hate on him for not being a superstar all you want, but he is solid and he is playing just fine. He is not the weak link in the defense. The weak link in this defense is ALL secondary, it's Blake, it's Boykin, it's Allen.

Was Cam Thomas any better than Tuitt as a rookie? I would say no, and he ( Tuitt ) should have received more playing time. Should Bryant have played sooner as a rookie? I say yes. I think Tomlin was a game or two late in the promotions here.

Or Jesse James was pretty bad in the pre-season. But when given a chance he showed signs of being decent! Prior to this, us fans did not know about James in an NFL game. It took an injury for James to play. Look at him now!

But us fans do know that Jarvis Jones is a weak link.

The risk of giving Chikillo a series or two on defense is minimal.

PS: Wheaton should return kickoffs.

As pointed out, Wheaton is already returning kickoffs. And giving Chikillo a series or two a game is a bigger risk than you think. You don't see what happens in practice, but the coaches do. You only see the stat lines, and even then you try to manipulate them to fit your agenda. Chikillo did absolutely NOTHING, he hasn't even shown much on special teams. He's been active for 6 games, he has 4 tackles, 3 solo. All 3 on special teams...

 

[madinsomniac]

Jones is average. I wouldnt call him a liability. He isnt much of a playmaker but they cant all be. He got better vs the run... And that is all i asked from him

 

[black and gold apex]

Jones is paid way more than is ability on the field.

 

[POP]

You want to compare Porter and Harrison to Jones when they were in their early to prime years when you had two of the best 3-4 lineman EVER eating up blocks, plugging up lanes and doing more than McClendon and any combination of Heyward and Tuitt can do. And I love what Tuitt and Heyward bring to the table. I think they can be very dominant, but they don't compare to Hampton and Smith.

I would hope not. Hampton was a 360 lb nose tackle, Hampton and Tuitt are ends.

You are looking STRICTLY at the numbers, which I already proved to you is the wrong way to look at things. Harrison is getting MORE snaps than Jones, yet his stats aren't that much better than his. Dupree and Moats are splitting snaps pretty equally, and neither of them are any better than Jones in the stat dept, and they are seeing more action in the running game because teams are running their way MORE

.

Don't most right handed backs (majority of them) prefer to run to their right (The D's left?)

Jones is not the worst starting OLB we've had, and if you actually WATCHED the games, you'd actually see that. Jones is applying pressure quite often, he's stuffing lanes, and he's usually around the ball. A lot of the things he is doing now isn't showing up on the stats sheet, he is even in coverage a lot more than he was, something you said he can't do (and that coverage is exactly what got him his INT in the redzone).

Hmmm, I already looked through every starting OLB since 1980, and I didn't find any ones who were worse than Jones. Go back to that post.

You can hate on him for not being a superstar all you want, but he is solid and he is playing just fine. He is not the weak link in the defense. The weak link in this defense is ALL secondary, it's Blake, it's Boykin, it's Allen.

Yes, we have horrid DBs, but two wrongs don't make a right; just because they stink doesn't mean JJ is any good.

 

[Coach]

Was Cam Thomas any better than Tuitt as a rookie? I would say no, and he ( Tuitt ) should have received more playing time. Should Bryant have played sooner as a rookie? I say yes. I think Tomlin was a game or two late in the promotions here.

Or Jesse James was pretty bad in the pre-season. But when given a chance he showed signs of being decent! Prior to this, us fans did not know about James in an NFL game. It took an injury for James to play. Look at him now!

But us fans do know that Jarvis Jones is a weak link.

The risk of giving Chikillo a series or two on defense is minimal.

PS: Wheaton should return kickoffs.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean should? He already is.

I meant over Archer. Wheaton should have never lost his job. Yet he did.

 

[SteelerSask2]

Was Cam Thomas any better than Tuitt as a rookie? I would say no, and he ( Tuitt ) should have received more playing time. Should Bryant have played sooner as a rookie? I say yes. I think Tomlin was a game or two late in the promotions here.

Or Jesse James was pretty bad in the pre-season. But when given a chance he showed signs of being decent! Prior to this, us fans did not know about James in an NFL game. It took an injury for James to play. Look at him now!

But us fans do know that Jarvis Jones is a weak link.

The risk of giving Chikillo a series or two on defense is minimal.

PS: Wheaton should return kickoffs.

A series or two. Sure if they believe he could be an upgrade. But let me tell you something you really can't compare Chickillo's potential to someone like Tuitt or Bryant. Both of those guys would have had first round talent grades on many boards. Tuitt got a bit of a rap as someone who disappeared at times at Notre Dame, but he also took over some games. If Bryant didn't have his taste for the Chronic and didn't play with Watkins, he is probably first rounder himself.

 

[madinsomniac]

Alonzo Jackson started a game for us at olb... Just in case any wants to see a truely abysmal olb in action... jj is average... That isnt what you want from the 16th overall, but its not as bad as some teams have it... We are spoiled with hof and all pro olb expectations....

 

[Coach]

Giving Chikillo a series or two a game is a bigger risk than you think. You don't see what happens in practice, but the coaches do. You only see the stat lines, and even then you try to manipulate them to fit your agenda. Chikillo did absolutely NOTHING, he hasn't even shown much on special teams. He's been active for 6 games, he has 4 tackles, 3 solo. All 3 on special teams...

Don't assume what I see or read. Do assume what we can all see on game day. Jones is weak. Our worst season starting OLB, perhaps since you have been watching football. No one wants to debate that.

Nowhere did I say Chickillo would be better for sure, but he might. re-read that twice. Are you telling me he is not? Prove it! You can't. Chickillo would have to play a lot more.

Chickillo is a smart kid with better upside. Fans should be for younger players replacing fringe starters. There is no risk giving up some of Jones snaps to find out. The examples of Tomlin finding out the next man up is better than the guy he is replacing can be found, just like the examples of him inserting rookies too late can be found. The examples of Tomlin inserting guys who did " nothing ", only to find they can play are also numerous. Let's not act like Tomlin is infallible. He's wrong quite a bit.

Practice by the way at this time of year is a softer exercise.

 

[Coach]

A series or two. Sure if they believe he could be an upgrade. But let me tell you something you really can't compare Chickillo's potential to someone like Tuitt or Bryant. Both of those guys would have had first round talent grades on many boards. Tuitt got a bit of a rap as someone who disappeared at times at Notre Dame, but he also took over some games. If Bryant didn't have his taste for the Chronic and didn't play with Watkins, he is probably first rounder himself.

We agree on the first part. Did you know Chickillo was a 5-star athletic college recruit with football bloodlines? He was badly miscast in a Miami defense who had a bozo for a head coach and his equally clueless buddy as the DC.

Someone here said Steeler Depot panned him.

Not so.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...lm-room-outside-linebacker-anthony-chickillo/

 

[insaniti]

I would hope not. Hampton was a 360 lb nose tackle, Hampton and Tuitt are ends.

.

Don't most right handed backs (majority of them) prefer to run to their right (The D's left?)



Hmmm, I already looked through every starting OLB since 1980, and I didn't find any ones who were worse than Jones. Go back to that post.


Yes, we have horrid DBs, but two wrongs don't make a right; just because they stink doesn't mean JJ is any good.

Reading is fundamental. You said Hampton and Tuitt are ends, I'm going to assume that you mean Heyward and Tuitt...and yes they are ends, and if you READ before that, I stated that McClendon and ANY combination of Heyward and Tuitt...and then went on to praise what I've seen from Heyward and Tuitt, but they cannot be compared to two of the greatest at their position when trying to compare stats from two different defenses from two different era's.

Also, teams don't run to the side that the back is dominant handed, they run to the D's weakest side OR to their OL strongest side. We run more to the defenses right because of DeCasto's pulling ability and Foster's lack of pulling ability. Has nothing to do with which hand the RB writes with.

Don't assume what I see or read. Do assume what we can all see on game day. Jones is weak. Our worst season starting OLB, perhaps since you have been watching football. No one wants to debate that.

Nowhere did I say Chickillo would be better for sure, but he might. re-read that twice. Are you telling me he is not? Prove it! You can't. Chickillo would have to play a lot more.

Chickillo is a smart kid with better upside. Fans should be for younger players replacing fringe starters. There is no risk giving up some of Jones snaps to find out. The examples of Tomlin finding out the next man up is better than the guy he is replacing can be found, just like the examples of him inserting rookies too late can be found. The examples of Tomlin inserting guys who did " nothing ", only to find they can play are also numerous. Let's not act like Tomlin is infallible. He's wrong quite a bit.

Practice by the way at this time of year is a softer exercise.

I don't need to assume what you do and don't see, I can tell from your posts. You said Jones can't set the edge, when in fact he does an excellent job at setting the edge. You said Jones can't handle coverage, when in fact he is coverage quite a bit. It's something we ask ALL our LBers to do. Something that Chikillo doesn't have the skillset for yet. He's still learning the nuances of playing LBer while converting from DE.

Also when did I ever bring up Tomlin in this entire conversation, this is all about the ability of said players and your desire to focus solely on their stats. I can find just as many situations where Tomlin chose to play a player and they were worse, MUCH worse than the player in front of them and he reverted back to the original player. Shamarko Thomas comes to mind there. This isn't another coach Tomlin conversation... this is a conversation about our OLBers and the fact that you clearly have an issue with Jones and can't evaluate him without your hate for him and biased towards Chikillo. It's funny that YOU think Dupree has hit a rookie wall of sorts, while Tomlin thinks he has out played Moats and has been giving him the majority of the reps.

You are quick to point out when Tomlin is wrong, are you as quick to point out when you are wrong, or can you still tell the difference between a player running a 4.45 and a 4.43 40 yard dash? Have you admitted to being completely and utterly wrong about Polamalu, or are you going to stick to the story that it was a different "Coach" poster? Simply put, you are wrong about Jones.