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Greatest Steeler Defensive Back EVER

Steelworth said:
This alone makes Mel the GOAT. I've watched so many clips of him just destroying WRs, I was actually starting to feel bad for them. Envy those of you who got to watch that monster in person.
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Nice clip, Steelworth. And I loved when opposing QB's were so nervous about the Steelers defense that they would just drop the ball when dropping back to pass.
 
Ike Kelly said:
Thing is I don’t think they dissed Rod. They offered him a contract in 96 and balked at it. That contract was higher than the two contracts he received in three years from SF and Balt combined.

He could have had more money in the same amount of years.
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They didn't offer him top CB $ and he thought he deserved it.
 
Steelworth said:
Interesting. Deion has only 2 more career INTs than Donnie Shell, who was a more in-the-box SS while Glen Edwards was the FS on the 70's Steelers teams.
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True. But as I said, Deion was rarely thrown at...

Stats don't lie, but there's no stat to support that fact.

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bermudasteel said:
True. But as I said, Deion was rarely thrown at...

Stats don't lie, but there's no stat to support that fact.

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He was a better cover corner Imo, but Rod made him look like a ***** in run support. And Rod was no slouch in coverage either. I prefer the well rounded player over the one trick pony. Even if that trick was special and elite.

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Black & Gold Bleeder said:
Ike,
Your thoughts on Donahoe? Good, bad etc. I knew the man briefly. I have high regard. IDK how he was as a GM of player personnel.
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Tom Donahoe IMO was an average GM towards the end of his tenure. He and Mr. Rooney had known each other for some time when he was hired in 1991, hence his longevity. IIRC, when he was hired it was as a handshake agreement with Mr. Rooney. Only later did he “need” to have a contract for his role. That could be attributed to Cowher’s success and desire to get players he wanted and not Donahoe. In the beginning Donahoe was pretty successful but relied heavily on Colorado players in various rounds, and for the most part those players were successful with the club. However, later on Chin’s insistence on certain players were overlooked by Donahoe and with the exception of 1998, his last few years of drafting were sub par. Maybe one or two players per draft. Troy Edwards was the final straw and Cowher let it known he or Donahoe had to leave.

In regards to his spat with FA players, yeah he did have a sharp tongue sometimes, but the 90s was the time of the balloon of the new free agency model and some players really got egotistical. Some of his comments were unnecessary (towards Rod’s Salvation Army comparison), but FA wise he was fair. The Bettis trade, also was a steal for the franchise and set Cowher up offensively for close a decade.

When he moved on to Buffalo, he had no chance. Ownership problems, stadium problems.....really a bad situation.


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Steelworth said:


This alone makes Mel the GOAT. I've watched so many clips of him just destroying WRs, I was actually starting to feel bad for them. Envy those of you who got to watch that monster in person.
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I love Mel, He and Rod are my 1a/1b equally favorite CB in team history, but that play there was the reason why Blount was included in the “criminal element” lawsuit from Tatum.


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Ike Kelly said:
I love Mel, He and Rod are my 1a/1b equally favorite CB in team history, but that play there was the reason why Blount was included in the “criminal element” lawsuit from Tatum.
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**** Tatum & Atkinson. They speared unsuspecting people and used closed-fist swings directly to the head of others, trying to inflict as much damage and injury as they possibly could.
 
bermudasteel said:
My only comment, now, is for Ike (Kelly)...

I understand the dislike for the Cowboy organization - they haven't won anything in a while - so, they're not as bothersome to me anymore; BUT...

Deion Sanders and Rod Woodson, both in their prime, is a very interesting debate. I wasn't too lazy to look it up - I found this:

https://www.quora.com/Who-was-a-better-corner-Deion-Sanders-or-Rod-Woodson


Rod Woodson:
71 Interceptions (3rd all time)
1,483 INT Return Yards (1st all time)
12 INT Return TDs (1st all time)
20 Forced Fumbles
32 Fumble Recoveries (1st all time, defensive players)
1050 Tackles
17 Total non offensive TD (2nd all time)
6 Time First Team All Pro
11 Time Pro Bowl
7256 Kick/Punt Return Yards
13.5 Sacks
One Defensive Player of the Year Award

Deion Sanders:
53 Interceptions (22nd all time)
1,331 INT Return Yards (3rd all time)
9 INT Return TDs (3rd all time)
10 Forced Fumbles
13 Fumble Recoveries
492 Tackles
19 Total non offensive TD (1st all time)
6 Time First Team All Pro
8 Time Pro Bowl
5,722 Kick/Punt Return Yards
1 sack
One Defensive Player of the Year Award

Deion Sanders is by universal acclaim the best cover corner of all-time.

But Rod Woodson may have been his equal as an all-around player; the disparity in run support shows up in Woodson's 2-to-1 edge in tackles for their careers. And in the return game, Woodson remains vastly underrated.

My only argument (for Deion) would be - you can't interceptions if the QB's don't throw it to your side of the field. It has been documented, tremendously, that nearly every QB stayed away from Deion - lest he take it back for a pick 6.

A very interesting debate indeed...
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Berm there is no debate for me. Rod was a superior player in all facets of the game.

Deion became a lightning rod for his exploits on and off the field. Showboating during games and immersing himself in the hip hop scene to bring awareness to his brand persona. I watched him do it at FSU...and he continued exponentially when he got to Atlanta. No doubt Deion was a superlative athlete, being a two way athlete signifies that. But he was no technician on the football field and his game was only to get picks, field returns and nothing else. The notion of QBs avoiding him is misplaced IMO as he constantly baited QBs. The smart ones, figured his method out and went opposite or through check downs because he never would attack them. His popularity stems from his network gigs which were more related to his Prime Time persona than his actual play.

Your stats above says it all....Rod was more impactful as a football player all around. End of rant.

As for the Cowboys....never liked them in the 70s and 80s, but when they were coached by Landry, I totally respected them. When Jones bought the club I could’ve care less for them. How he handled as Schramm, Landry and Gil Brandt was asinine. Today I long for their front office failure, because with the exception of the Patriot organization, Jones has his hands in everything that’s wrong with the league, whatever to make more money at the expense of the game. The old guard is practically gone, they protected the game. Jones is the reason Oakland is going to Vegas, Jones is the reason for the image of the players in the league declining. He has signed more “problem players” than any other team and they still cause image issues, when they should be out of the league.


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Bobby Bufford said:
They didn't offer him top CB $ and he thought he deserved it.
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Wrong, he was offered a contract larger than any other team, he chose not to sign it.

As described by various outlets including the player wiki and wiki forums, the Steelers in Aug 96 (before the season) offered Woodson a 3 year 9 million extension. Rod refused it and then requested a long term contract instead (4-5 years). Pitt then offered him an extension of 5 years 10 million, which included a $500k signing bonus and incentives to push it to $13.5 million. Rod declined that as well.

After the 1996 season, he was then offered a 4 year $ 7.2 million contract including a $ 1 mil SB. This was after the season and included the injury to his shoulder, knee and ankle. He apparently was insulted and declined it. He had visited several teams in FA, none which offered contracts remotely close to what he was offered by Pitt. A 2 year 3 mil was reported. He signed with Frisco on a 3 year deal, with less than 2 mil on the first year. He was cut the next year (salary dump).

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-03-30-9703300165-story.html

https://www.si.com/vault/1997/05/26...oving-that-his-best-nfl-days-arent-behind-him

After 97, Balt signed him early in Feb 98 for $5.70 million on a 3 year contract (including a $3 mil SB).

So sharpen your Ernie Adams pencil with your Bob Kraft sharpener and do the math to prove Pitt didn’t offer Woodson more $ than any other club before or after 1996.



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Steelworth said:
**** Tatum & Atkinson. They speared unsuspecting people and used closed-fist swings directly to the head of others, trying to inflict as much damage and injury as they possibly could.
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Yeah....Davis got Hitman a slick lawyer who cornered Chuck on the stand asking if specific plays (including Pitt) would constitute the “criminal “element”. That lawyer then asked Chuck for the name of the Pitt player......

Mel then sued Chuck.....Lol...


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Ike Kelly said:
Tom Donahoe IMO was an average GM towards the end of his tenure. He and Mr. Rooney had known each other for some time when he was hired in 1991, hence his longevity. IIRC, when he was hired it was as a handshake agreement with Mr. Rooney. Only later did he “need” to have a contract for his role. That could be attributed to Cowher’s success and desire to get players he wanted and not Donahoe. In the beginning Donahoe was pretty successful but relied heavily on Colorado players in various rounds, and for the most part those players were successful with the club. However, later on Chin’s insistence on certain players were overlooked by Donahoe and with the exception of 1998, his last few years of drafting were sub par. Maybe one or two players per draft. Troy Edwards was the final straw and Cowher let it known he or Donahoe had to leave.

In regards to his spat with FA players, yeah he did have a sharp tongue sometimes, but the 90s was the time of the balloon of the new free agency model and some players really got egotistical. Some of his comments were unnecessary (towards Rod’s Salvation Army comparison), but FA wise he was fair. The Bettis trade, also was a steal for the franchise and set Cowher up offensively for close a decade.

When he moved on to Buffalo, he had no chance. Ownership problems, stadium problems.....really a bad situation.
Click to expand...

I always thought Tom Modrak was the real talent, as far as player evaluation.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Modrak
 
Ike Kelly said:
Wrong, he was offered a contract larger than any other team, he chose not to sign it.

As described by various outlets including the player wiki and wiki forums, the Steelers in Aug 96 (before the season) offered Woodson a 3 year 9 million extension. Rod refused it and then requested a long term contract instead (4-5 years). Pitt then offered him an extension of 5 years 10 million, which included a $500k signing bonus and incentives to push it to $13.5 million. Rod declined that as well.

After the 1996 season, he was then offered a 4 year $ 7.2 million contract including a $ 1 mil SB. This was after the season and included the injury to his shoulder, knee and ankle. He apparently was insulted and declined it. He had visited several teams in FA, none which offered contracts remotely close to what he was offered by Pitt. A 2 year 3 mil was reported. He signed with Frisco on a 3 year deal, with less than 2 mil on the first year. He was cut the next year (salary dump).

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-1997-03-30-9703300165-story.html

https://www.si.com/vault/1997/05/26...oving-that-his-best-nfl-days-arent-behind-him

After 97, Balt signed him early in Feb 98 for $5.70 million on a 3 year contract (including a $3 mil SB).

So sharpen your Ernie Adams pencil with your Bob Kraft sharpener and do the math to prove Pitt didn’t offer Woodson more $ than any other club before or after 1996.
Click to expand...

OK, I will give you kudos for looking that much **** up.
 
Steeltime said:
Blount was bigger, more physical, and was so dominant they had to change the rules because of him.

I thought about Woodson's return skills - remember the game where he simply dominated Buffalo's receivers, and then won the game with a punt return for a TD? - but the thread is about the Steelers' best defensive back. I don't think return skills play a role there.



Pretty amazing, no doubt, but again does not play into the question of who is the best defensive back.



Good points ... but he did a huge percentage of that with the Raiders, Ravens, etc. More than half his TD's came with other teams, and more than 45% of his interceptions.

Career Steelers comparison

Woodson: 38 interceptions, 5 TD's on defense
Blount: 57 interceptions, 2 TD's on defense

One issue is that the NFL did not keep track of tackles during Blount's time.
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True Blount was a tackle machine. Woodson had a far better click and close, using his speed to cover stretches of area to leave receptions as short/no gains. Woodson was an excellent and willing tackler, Blount hit harder. Both took perfect angles to attack the receiver. Too bad they didn't keep forced fumble stats during Mel's era. Recoveries are slanted strongly toward Rod.

Now if you're willing to split the years Rod played out side of Pittsburgh to state who the better 'Pittsburgh' Corner is, I see your argument. My argument was who was the better athlete. Though to see your argument a bit, you have to compare apples to apples. Rod played 10yrs in Pit Mel played 14, so Mel should have better stats in Pit. Mel started a majority of the games his first season, Rod was only a punt returner and sub package corner his first year. Rod also missed an entire season with an ACL tear, so no stats that year. They both played 14 active seasons as a starter for the majority of their games, so total stats are comparable and slanted heavily to Rod.

In Pit comparing them as starters for at least half of the season:
Mel 14yrs 13FR 57INTs 4.07 Ints/season
Rod 8yrs 19FR 37INTs 4.63 Ints/season *rookie stats were not used in these numbers

So if you're looking for a purely athletic ball hawk, Rod is the gold standard. He had more Fumble Recoveries in his 5th season than Blount had in all 14 of his. His INT ratio was also higher per season in Pit. That's why I slant toward Rod as the best ever at corner in Pit.

And if Rod was on the 70s teams, he would have gotten 4 SBs as well, and may have been even more dominant with his elite speed against much slower talent.
 
I simply could not pick "The Greatest" because trying to compare players across era's is silly. How do you compare Troy to Wagner? Different era's, different rules, different styles of play. What I will say is that I was able to watch and enjoy them all play. Wagner, Rod, and Troy are all top of my list of DB's I really enjoyed watching in Steelers uniforms.
 
Hoot said:
I simply could not pick "The Greatest" because trying to compare players across era's is silly. How do you compare Troy to Wagner? Different era's, different rules, different styles of play. What I will say is that I was able to watch and enjoy them all play. Wagner, Rod, and Troy are all top of my list of DB's I really enjoyed watching in Steelers uniforms.
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Different nutritional supplements, different training programs,, etc.

And that is fair to say.


I will note Mel had some underrated speed too. As time went on they focused in on tests, etc. But if you move Mel to Rod's era, with all those updated resources I think it is fair to say he could have even been better. Which is why this is more speculation for fun, more than factual.Just a FYI the combine started in 1982... For those wondering.

Mel's speed was said to be in the 4.3 -late 4.4 early range.
 
slashsteel said:
Different nutritional supplements, different training programs,, etc.

And that is fair to say.


I will note Mel had some underrated speed too. As time went on they focused in on tests, etc. But if you move Mel to Rod's era, with all those updated resources I think it is fair to say he could have even been better. Which is why this is more speculation for fun, more than factual.Just a FYI the combine started in 1982... For those wondering.

Mel's speed was said to be in the 4.3 -late 4.4 early range.
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absolutely - players today have much more thorough nutrition/workout programs and the game is much more detailed at all levels of play. HS and College prepare players much better today than 40 years ago. You throw in things like how the player camps have grown and spring football and summer workouts that are all much more prevalent than the "old days", you get much different players coming into the NFL today. And all that makes your point on what could Mel have done given that same development process as Rod or Troy? This is why I struggle with GOAT style conversations (although I certainly don't fault anyone for having them). I am simply saying that these guys were all awesome and I enjoyed watching them ply their trade and each for different reasons. Mel crushed people, Rod was just an all around STUD, and Troy just did athletically amazing things (finger tip catches or leaping the O-line at the snap).
 
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