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Winslow is a souljah....don't you ever forget it.
Congrats to our (not in the class of Brady, Rodgers, Brees,) not real pocket QB
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Winslow is a souljah....don't you ever forget it.
I dont think people realize that while Arians helped our WRs a ton, and taught Ben a lot, his philosophies as OC really hurt Ben. His oline philosophies were ridiculous and Ben was always an insane guy at quick read passes, we just never used them... for two or three seasons in a row his passer rating when throwing a pass within a second of recieving it was over 100, yet we still just played totall bomb away offense even wnen we had no oline and teams totally played a ton deep with a three or four man rush that would get there quick...
Haley really fixed the lack of a short to intermediate pass offense that was more than a bubble screen every now and again
Haley really fixed the lack of a short to intermediate pass offense that was more than a bubble screen every now and again
Really? I was terrified that we were going to go after Rivers. When Oakland passed on Ben for Gallery, I dropped to my knees. When the Steelers called out Ben's name, I lost my ****. All of Sacramento, California heard me, lol.
I still wonder to this day if Oakland regrets that choice.
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Rebuilding Since 1964
Yep i had the pleasure of watching Ben when Miami(ohio) was getting televised regularly we had college gameday where I worked... I remember thinking the kid was going to go first overall, then when he fell to us I went nuts.... I couldnt believe two QBs went over him, much less a bunch of QB black holes past on him...
Never pass on a potential Marino... we should have that ingrained in us by now. If next year a guy who has the potential to be a franchise QB you take him other position need be damned...
Yep. I looked at my daughter and said "This is your Steelers now. Thats the future". Plax was on the Herd yesterday talking about when Maddox got hurt and Ben came in. He said he knew it was special. He said Ben actually came to his house and asked him what was wrong. Plax asked for the ball more. Ben told him no problem. You get open, I'll get the ball to you. He then went on to talk about the next 15 games. Damn that was a season. Whew! The original topic I believe was rookie QBs making an impact year 1.
lmao classic Wig!
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I think we should all take a moment and thank SG for helping Ben improve his "Quick Release".
Ok, Wig, let's not start any rumors now. Ben's got a clean image, a lovely wife and beautiful kids.
Ok, Wig, let's not start any rumors now. Ben's got a clean image, a lovely wife and beautiful kids.
Ive always held up my responsibilities in The Steeler Nation
This^
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Alright, I decided to do some number crunching since I've been talking all Ben Roethlisberger.
I've worked out a couple things.
A) There are 3 'kinda' active QBs in the world who can compete with Ben Roethlisberger. And one of them will always be considered a cheater.
B) Aaron Rodgers is a ******* stud. He's no Ben in many ways, but he's a ******* stud.
Ok, here we go... I'll try to keep it simple. You can look these up on NFL.com and extrapolate as you like. I kept it simple. I did NOT do extended career stats based on the last few years performance. Had I done so, Ben's numbers would look better than they do currently. But that would have taken longer. As it is, he looks ******* awesome as it is.
Over 12 years, Roethlisberger has completed 64.2% of his passes.
That puts him completion percentage wise behind
1) D. Brees (66.4) - 14 years
2) P. Manning (65.3) - 17 years
3) A. Rodgers (65.1) - 10 years (I know, I was shocked...)
Ben is #4 at 64.2%
Ultimately, everything is going to be based on completion percentage.
Brady by the way, comes in at #5 with 63.6%
E. Manning comes in at 6 with 59.3%
--------------------------
The next two really important stats to look at are yards per attempt and yards per completion. These two numbers tell us something important about how the QB plays.
The NFL mostly pays attention to YPA which is the average of yards based against the total pass attempts. Unfortunately, this doesn't necessarily tell you the whole story. Yards Per Completion divides total passing yards against the number of completed passes and gives you a better idea of how often the QB throws longer passes. Not surprisingly, the better QBs in the game tend to throw longer and nobody in the game is better at throwing long regularly than Ben Roethlisberger.
He comes in #1 at 12.4 Y.PC.
Aaron Rodgers is #2 at 12.3 Y.P.C.
Surprisingly Eli Manning, otherwise kind of mediocre comes in at #3 in this category at 11.96 Y.P.C.
The list is rounded out by
#4 P. Manning - 11.75
#5 T. Brady - 11.72
#6 D Brees - 11.35
Now, that doesn't seem like a big difference but that half or quarter yard is HUGE over a career.
For example, P. Manning has 71,940 yards over his career, but if he threw the ball like Ben Roethlisberger, he'd have almost 76,000 yards. (75,950). That 4010 yard difference is almost an entire season worth of passing for some QB's.
but I digress.
-------------------------
Ben's TD percentage is not ideal, sadly. He's at 5% which makes him 5th on the list ahead of only Eli.
1) A Rodgers - 6.4% TD Ratio
2) P Manning - 5.7% TD Ratio
3) T Brady - 5.5% TD Ratio
4) D Brees - 5.3% TD Ratio
5) B Roeth - 5.0% TD Ratio
6) E Manning - 4.7% TD Ratio
----------------------
Furthermore, adding to our woes - his interception ratio is tied for 4th, although he's in somewhat good company there...
Interception Ratio / numbers
1) A Rodgers - 1.6% 65 ints | 10 years (This guys a ******* freak...)
2) T Brady - 1.9% 150 ints | 15 years
3) D Brees - 2.5% 205 ints | 14 years
4) P Manning / B Roeth - 2.7% 251 / 148 ints | 17 / 12 years
5) E Manning - 3.2% 199 ints 12 years
Well, I guess Ben is a gunslinger...
One of the things that stands out is the fact that in recent years Ben is definitely throwing more which brings up his yardage and attempts per game, however as we've all groaned about in the last couple seasons, the Steelers have certainly moved the ball well, but they don't always score TD's like we want them to. This is definitely showing up in the final stat sheet. I wonder if in the next couple seasons we won't see a jump in Roethlisberger's TD numbers. Anyway, more digressing...
---------------------
QB Rating:
Of the 6 QB's rated, Roethlisberger ranks 5th.
1) A Rodgers 104.1
2) P Manning 96.5
3 T Brady 96.4
4) D Brees 95.8
5) B Roeth 94.1
6) E Manning 83.5
I know what you're thinking... Hold that thought. work with me here. I KNOW what you're thinking.
------------------------------
Sacks and yards lost per...
We all know Ben takes a beating. But just how much of a beating is he taking compared to the other guys?
In terms of Sacks per season, Ben is the leader.
1) B Roeth 36.7 - 6.54 Yards Lost
2) A Rodgers 30.6 - 6.26 Yards Lost
3) T Brady 26.8 - 6.24 Yards Lost
4) E Manning 25.6 - 7.0 Yards Lost
5) D Brees 23.6 - 7.14 Yards Lost
6) P Manning 17.8 - 6.45 Yards Lost
So what does this tell us? Yes we know Ben holds on to the ball too long, but not 36.7 times a season too long. Ben's played behind some rough lines and STILL managed to put up great numbers. And again, Fuggin' Aaron Rodgers. ****, I've never actually looked at his numbers. However I have something coming down the pipe fellas... wait for it. Wait for it...
We can also see that Brady does get hit now and then and that Peyton Manning and Drew Brees run like girls.
---------------------------
As far as some of the intangibles, the biggest thing you can easily draw from the stat line is that Ben Roethlisberger is the 2nd best running QB of the list. Behind, you ******' guessed it. Aaron Rodgers. After those two the drop off is significant. I won't much go into the details, but suffice to say, both Roeth and Rodgers have actually made some decent big runs in their career each piling up 6 and 7 20+ yard runs in their careers respectively. So they aren't just diving for the 1st. They HAVE run now and then, although Ben obviously does that much less often these days.
As an aside, you know who NEVER runs? The Mannings. Either of em. They should look for corporate sponsorship with cement companies.
------------------------
So, with Ben coming in tops in only one or two categories and middling to low in the others how can I say he's so freaking amazing you ask? How can I suggest he's not only among the best currently in the game but among the best ever?
Well, Ben still has 4 or 5 years of his best football ahead of him. The guys (aside from Rodgers) are all in the latter stages of their careers and statistically their numbers are even waning a bit for some of them. Ben on the other hand is improving. *If I project Ben out to 17 years like Peyton, his total yards actually surpass Mannings just based on his current YPC and his completion percentage. Will he do it? I don't know. But that's the projection. The beauty of Ben having been limited in his early career means his numbers are low. That means that unlike somebody like Brady or Brees, he can still significantly increase his Yards Per Completion numbers with a couple good seasons. Literally he can significantly improve his overall numbers with just 2 or 3 great seasons while Brady, Brees and those older guys are pretty well locked in to their statistical legacy. They're just "padding stats" Roethlisberger and Rodgers are building them.
Now, he'll never hit those TD numbers. He wasn't given the opportunity early on to pass like Manning was or Brady is. It just can't happen. But if you look at his completion percentage and his yards per completion as well as his ability to bring out the best in the people around him, you simply can't compare him with most other QBs.
Take a look at Mike Wallace. Phenomenal player with Pittsburgh, completely pedestrian everywhere else he went.
Santonio Holmes, same issue.
Cedric Wilson comes to Pittsburgh and becomes an instant valuable component in a Superbowl team.
The best part of Roethlisberger is that he's getting better. He's a true leader and he understands the team-first mentality that Pittsburgh needs to win. Ben appreciates his linemen who have to hold those blocks while he desperately looks for another receiving option. He appreciates that Coates, who dropped a pass earlier made a great block on a running play that netted a TD that won't give him or Coates any statistical accolades at all. He had the faith to launch without hesitation a 40 yard pass to Coates who'd dropped an easy one earlier.
Ben has some amazing leadership qualities that simply make him one of the best ever.
Now Rodgers is statistically a freak of nature. But I don't think he embodies the same leadership qualities. I haven't paid the same kind of attention to Rodgers, obviously but he doesn't come across as the physical freak that Ben is. He's also really early in the game.I was surprised at how little statistical data there is on him. But truly, Rodgers is a guy to watch. He's a ******' stud. If there's anyone that should be put in the top 1 and 2 spots, it's Ben and Rodgers. No question about it.
* Based on equaling attempts vs completion% and Yards Per Completion.
I've worked out a couple things.
A) There are 3 'kinda' active QBs in the world who can compete with Ben Roethlisberger. And one of them will always be considered a cheater.
B) Aaron Rodgers is a ******* stud. He's no Ben in many ways, but he's a ******* stud.
Ok, here we go... I'll try to keep it simple. You can look these up on NFL.com and extrapolate as you like. I kept it simple. I did NOT do extended career stats based on the last few years performance. Had I done so, Ben's numbers would look better than they do currently. But that would have taken longer. As it is, he looks ******* awesome as it is.
Over 12 years, Roethlisberger has completed 64.2% of his passes.
That puts him completion percentage wise behind
1) D. Brees (66.4) - 14 years
2) P. Manning (65.3) - 17 years
3) A. Rodgers (65.1) - 10 years (I know, I was shocked...)
Ben is #4 at 64.2%
Ultimately, everything is going to be based on completion percentage.
Brady by the way, comes in at #5 with 63.6%
E. Manning comes in at 6 with 59.3%
--------------------------
The next two really important stats to look at are yards per attempt and yards per completion. These two numbers tell us something important about how the QB plays.
The NFL mostly pays attention to YPA which is the average of yards based against the total pass attempts. Unfortunately, this doesn't necessarily tell you the whole story. Yards Per Completion divides total passing yards against the number of completed passes and gives you a better idea of how often the QB throws longer passes. Not surprisingly, the better QBs in the game tend to throw longer and nobody in the game is better at throwing long regularly than Ben Roethlisberger.
He comes in #1 at 12.4 Y.PC.
Aaron Rodgers is #2 at 12.3 Y.P.C.
Surprisingly Eli Manning, otherwise kind of mediocre comes in at #3 in this category at 11.96 Y.P.C.
The list is rounded out by
#4 P. Manning - 11.75
#5 T. Brady - 11.72
#6 D Brees - 11.35
Now, that doesn't seem like a big difference but that half or quarter yard is HUGE over a career.
For example, P. Manning has 71,940 yards over his career, but if he threw the ball like Ben Roethlisberger, he'd have almost 76,000 yards. (75,950). That 4010 yard difference is almost an entire season worth of passing for some QB's.
but I digress.
-------------------------
Ben's TD percentage is not ideal, sadly. He's at 5% which makes him 5th on the list ahead of only Eli.
1) A Rodgers - 6.4% TD Ratio
2) P Manning - 5.7% TD Ratio
3) T Brady - 5.5% TD Ratio
4) D Brees - 5.3% TD Ratio
5) B Roeth - 5.0% TD Ratio
6) E Manning - 4.7% TD Ratio
----------------------
Furthermore, adding to our woes - his interception ratio is tied for 4th, although he's in somewhat good company there...
Interception Ratio / numbers
1) A Rodgers - 1.6% 65 ints | 10 years (This guys a ******* freak...)
2) T Brady - 1.9% 150 ints | 15 years
3) D Brees - 2.5% 205 ints | 14 years
4) P Manning / B Roeth - 2.7% 251 / 148 ints | 17 / 12 years
5) E Manning - 3.2% 199 ints 12 years
Well, I guess Ben is a gunslinger...
One of the things that stands out is the fact that in recent years Ben is definitely throwing more which brings up his yardage and attempts per game, however as we've all groaned about in the last couple seasons, the Steelers have certainly moved the ball well, but they don't always score TD's like we want them to. This is definitely showing up in the final stat sheet. I wonder if in the next couple seasons we won't see a jump in Roethlisberger's TD numbers. Anyway, more digressing...
---------------------
QB Rating:
Of the 6 QB's rated, Roethlisberger ranks 5th.
1) A Rodgers 104.1
2) P Manning 96.5
3 T Brady 96.4
4) D Brees 95.8
5) B Roeth 94.1
6) E Manning 83.5
I know what you're thinking... Hold that thought. work with me here. I KNOW what you're thinking.
------------------------------
Sacks and yards lost per...
We all know Ben takes a beating. But just how much of a beating is he taking compared to the other guys?
In terms of Sacks per season, Ben is the leader.
1) B Roeth 36.7 - 6.54 Yards Lost
2) A Rodgers 30.6 - 6.26 Yards Lost
3) T Brady 26.8 - 6.24 Yards Lost
4) E Manning 25.6 - 7.0 Yards Lost
5) D Brees 23.6 - 7.14 Yards Lost
6) P Manning 17.8 - 6.45 Yards Lost
So what does this tell us? Yes we know Ben holds on to the ball too long, but not 36.7 times a season too long. Ben's played behind some rough lines and STILL managed to put up great numbers. And again, Fuggin' Aaron Rodgers. ****, I've never actually looked at his numbers. However I have something coming down the pipe fellas... wait for it. Wait for it...
We can also see that Brady does get hit now and then and that Peyton Manning and Drew Brees run like girls.
---------------------------
As far as some of the intangibles, the biggest thing you can easily draw from the stat line is that Ben Roethlisberger is the 2nd best running QB of the list. Behind, you ******' guessed it. Aaron Rodgers. After those two the drop off is significant. I won't much go into the details, but suffice to say, both Roeth and Rodgers have actually made some decent big runs in their career each piling up 6 and 7 20+ yard runs in their careers respectively. So they aren't just diving for the 1st. They HAVE run now and then, although Ben obviously does that much less often these days.
As an aside, you know who NEVER runs? The Mannings. Either of em. They should look for corporate sponsorship with cement companies.
------------------------
So, with Ben coming in tops in only one or two categories and middling to low in the others how can I say he's so freaking amazing you ask? How can I suggest he's not only among the best currently in the game but among the best ever?
Well, Ben still has 4 or 5 years of his best football ahead of him. The guys (aside from Rodgers) are all in the latter stages of their careers and statistically their numbers are even waning a bit for some of them. Ben on the other hand is improving. *If I project Ben out to 17 years like Peyton, his total yards actually surpass Mannings just based on his current YPC and his completion percentage. Will he do it? I don't know. But that's the projection. The beauty of Ben having been limited in his early career means his numbers are low. That means that unlike somebody like Brady or Brees, he can still significantly increase his Yards Per Completion numbers with a couple good seasons. Literally he can significantly improve his overall numbers with just 2 or 3 great seasons while Brady, Brees and those older guys are pretty well locked in to their statistical legacy. They're just "padding stats" Roethlisberger and Rodgers are building them.
Now, he'll never hit those TD numbers. He wasn't given the opportunity early on to pass like Manning was or Brady is. It just can't happen. But if you look at his completion percentage and his yards per completion as well as his ability to bring out the best in the people around him, you simply can't compare him with most other QBs.
Take a look at Mike Wallace. Phenomenal player with Pittsburgh, completely pedestrian everywhere else he went.
Santonio Holmes, same issue.
Cedric Wilson comes to Pittsburgh and becomes an instant valuable component in a Superbowl team.
The best part of Roethlisberger is that he's getting better. He's a true leader and he understands the team-first mentality that Pittsburgh needs to win. Ben appreciates his linemen who have to hold those blocks while he desperately looks for another receiving option. He appreciates that Coates, who dropped a pass earlier made a great block on a running play that netted a TD that won't give him or Coates any statistical accolades at all. He had the faith to launch without hesitation a 40 yard pass to Coates who'd dropped an easy one earlier.
Ben has some amazing leadership qualities that simply make him one of the best ever.
Now Rodgers is statistically a freak of nature. But I don't think he embodies the same leadership qualities. I haven't paid the same kind of attention to Rodgers, obviously but he doesn't come across as the physical freak that Ben is. He's also really early in the game.I was surprised at how little statistical data there is on him. But truly, Rodgers is a guy to watch. He's a ******' stud. If there's anyone that should be put in the top 1 and 2 spots, it's Ben and Rodgers. No question about it.
* Based on equaling attempts vs completion% and Yards Per Completion.
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Its just when you extrapolate out where bens career will likely end up barring injury or a bunch of exceptionally great seasons... he ends up as one of the ten best statistical QBs ever... and while one can make a very good era case against stats being inflated... still that doesnt count why Ben is really in the top tier even among his peers and there are few QBs younger on pace to match or surpass him...
People forget he came out and he was starting when he was like 22... amost no QB comes out and starts at 22... and wins... if not for injuries we are talking about a guy who would be finishing top 5 in most categories. The guy is just 34, and guys like rodgers are 32. Depending on his longetivity, there are scenerios where he retires after Eli, Rivers, even rodgers... He has that Brett favreish arm that often lets QBs play a long time if they are willing to take the beating and adjust their game to fit their age...
People forget he came out and he was starting when he was like 22... amost no QB comes out and starts at 22... and wins... if not for injuries we are talking about a guy who would be finishing top 5 in most categories. The guy is just 34, and guys like rodgers are 32. Depending on his longetivity, there are scenerios where he retires after Eli, Rivers, even rodgers... He has that Brett favreish arm that often lets QBs play a long time if they are willing to take the beating and adjust their game to fit their age...
^^^^^^ Post of the year, so far in the 2016 season!
Way to go Wig!
Way to go Wig!
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Mad, he already is in the top 5 in most categories. That list represents some of the best players (Eli Manning notwithstanding) currently in the NFL and honestly they rank very well with some of the best to ever play the game.
I could dig up Favre and Marino's numbers but I can tell you they won't look better on paper than Ben and Rodgers. They just won't. It would be cool to look up Kelly, Moon and some of those guys though just to see.
Truly Ben and Rodgers are the cream of the crop. Brady and Brees are just about done and by the time Ben and Rodgers have played as long as they have, the only thing they won't have as much of is probably TDs. But Brady's TD numbers will always be tainted and Ben played at least /2 his career in a run-first offense.
Peyton Manning and Brees are great contemporary benchmarks in terms of QB's who pretty much lived their careers on pure passing teams. Brady in my opinion is just out. Which truly is kind of a shame for Brady as he has such a great stat line. We'll never really know if he was any good or not. Rodgers is something special as well. I will be very interested to see how his career progresses. Obviously the time on the bench watching Favre did him well. The question is, can his body hold up long enough to put up numbers for another 7 or 8 years or will he simply "get old" even though he hasn't played as long as the other guys? Cause that would be a real shame.
I could dig up Favre and Marino's numbers but I can tell you they won't look better on paper than Ben and Rodgers. They just won't. It would be cool to look up Kelly, Moon and some of those guys though just to see.
Truly Ben and Rodgers are the cream of the crop. Brady and Brees are just about done and by the time Ben and Rodgers have played as long as they have, the only thing they won't have as much of is probably TDs. But Brady's TD numbers will always be tainted and Ben played at least /2 his career in a run-first offense.
Peyton Manning and Brees are great contemporary benchmarks in terms of QB's who pretty much lived their careers on pure passing teams. Brady in my opinion is just out. Which truly is kind of a shame for Brady as he has such a great stat line. We'll never really know if he was any good or not. Rodgers is something special as well. I will be very interested to see how his career progresses. Obviously the time on the bench watching Favre did him well. The question is, can his body hold up long enough to put up numbers for another 7 or 8 years or will he simply "get old" even though he hasn't played as long as the other guys? Cause that would be a real shame.
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Ha Ha! I knew it!
I did go ahead and look up some of the recent "former greats" and as I expected Ben is right in line with them. It's true that the rules have changed a bit to make passing a more dynamic part of the game. That is reflected in completion percentage and essentially across the board, but regardless, If you take the time to look up the career numbers of ALL the greats like Marino, Favre, Elway, Moon etc. you will see the reason we remember them as being amazing QBs is because, like Ben and Aaron Rodgers, they threw the ball downfield. While none of them (not even Marino) can touch Ben or the contemporaries completion percentages, only John Elway has a greater yards per completion record than Ben.
(I didn't look up Montana or Young. Sorry. Time...) This is fascinating stuff though. Would you believe that Jim Kelly played 11 years just like Aaron Rodgers (I was off a year in the years played thing, it didn't change their stats aside from sacks per season) Aaron Rodgers is just a bit better than Kelly, but given that Kelly played in a tougher passing era it's not as different as you'd expect. On the other hand, Kelly went to 4 straight Super Bowls and lead one of the most amazing offenses in league history... So there's that... Ya, I can't get around it. Rodgers is a stud.
I did go ahead and look up some of the recent "former greats" and as I expected Ben is right in line with them. It's true that the rules have changed a bit to make passing a more dynamic part of the game. That is reflected in completion percentage and essentially across the board, but regardless, If you take the time to look up the career numbers of ALL the greats like Marino, Favre, Elway, Moon etc. you will see the reason we remember them as being amazing QBs is because, like Ben and Aaron Rodgers, they threw the ball downfield. While none of them (not even Marino) can touch Ben or the contemporaries completion percentages, only John Elway has a greater yards per completion record than Ben.
(I didn't look up Montana or Young. Sorry. Time...) This is fascinating stuff though. Would you believe that Jim Kelly played 11 years just like Aaron Rodgers (I was off a year in the years played thing, it didn't change their stats aside from sacks per season) Aaron Rodgers is just a bit better than Kelly, but given that Kelly played in a tougher passing era it's not as different as you'd expect. On the other hand, Kelly went to 4 straight Super Bowls and lead one of the most amazing offenses in league history... So there's that... Ya, I can't get around it. Rodgers is a stud.
No way. Guy is in. Find one other QB who started 3 SB who is not in the HOF. Throw in an AB in his prime to be his WR1 to close out his career, more incredible numbers will come.
I think the only who won 2 and is not in is Plunkett, and thats because he was not very good the first half of his career.
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Kurt Warner started 2 SBs with Rams and 1 with Cardinals.