Cowherd Roasts Tomlin Nuthugger

[topseed]

Point remains, Tomlin has had and inherited a franchise HOF QB his entire career, how many coaches can say that?

Sean Payton is the prime example. He's had Brees since day 1 in 2006.

13 seasons
131-77 (.630) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Tomlin:
13 seasons.
134-74-2 (.642) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Their careers parallel each other, and the results are nearly identical. I dislike Tomlin, but it's damn hard to win a Super Bowl, even with a HOF quarterback not named Brady.

 

[topseed]

That could be true, maybe a little of both. The NFL today is built around the passing game, the rules are skewed toward the offense in a big way. When he coached it was defense and the running game. There wasn't the roughing the QB calls like today, DB's could be very physical with the WR's.

Here are the QB's that went in round 1 or 2 while Cowher was here:
92-Klingler and Maddox went in round 1, no QB's went in round 2. We picked 11th
93-Bledsoe and Mirer went #1 and #2, no QB's went in round 2. We picked 23rd
94-Shuler went #3, Dilfer went #6, the next QB wasn't drafted until the 4th rd. We picked 17th
95-McNair went #3, Kerry Collins went 5th. Todd Collins and Kordell went in round 2. We picked 27th.
96-No QB's went in round 1, Tony Banks was the only QB drafted in round 2.
97-Drunkenmiller went 26th in round 1, Jake Plummer went in the 2nd. We picked 24th
98-Manning and Leaf went #1 and #2, Batch went in round 2. We picked 26th
99-Couch, McNabb, Akili Smith, Culpepper, McNown all went top 12 in round 1. Shaun King only QB in round 2 we picked 13th.
00-Pennington went 18th, no QB's were taken in the 2nd. We picked 8th
01-Vick went #1, Brees, Quincy Carter, Tuiasosoppo all in round 2. We picked 19th
02-Carr, Harrington, Ramsey went in the 1st. No QB's went in round 2. We picked 30th.
03-Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman went in round 1, no QB's in round 2. We picked 16th

We didn't really have a chance at any good QB's.

Great list, and it's amazing to look back and see how many round 1 quarterbacks never amounted to anything.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Tonlin sucks.

 

[antdrewjosh]

That could be true, maybe a little of both. The NFL today is built around the passing game, the rules are skewed toward the offense in a big way. When he coached it was defense and the running game. There wasn't the roughing the QB calls like today, DB's could be very physical with the WR's.

Here are the QB's that went in round 1 or 2 while Cowher was here:
92-Klingler and Maddox went in round 1, no QB's went in round 2. We picked 11th
93-Bledsoe and Mirer went #1 and #2, no QB's went in round 2. We picked 23rd
94-Shuler went #3, Dilfer went #6, the next QB wasn't drafted until the 4th rd. We picked 17th
95-McNair went #3, Kerry Collins went 5th. Todd Collins and Kordell went in round 2. We picked 27th.
96-No QB's went in round 1, Tony Banks was the only QB drafted in round 2.
97-Drunkenmiller went 26th in round 1, Jake Plummer went in the 2nd. We picked 24th
98-Manning and Leaf went #1 and #2, Batch went in round 2. We picked 26th
99-Couch, McNabb, Akili Smith, Culpepper, McNown all went top 12 in round 1. Shaun King only QB in round 2 we picked 13th.
00-Pennington went 18th, no QB's were taken in the 2nd. We picked 8th
01-Vick went #1, Brees, Quincy Carter, Tuiasosoppo all in round 2. We picked 19th
02-Carr, Harrington, Ramsey went in the 1st. No QB's went in round 2. We picked 30th.
03-Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman went in round 1, no QB's in round 2. We picked 16th

We didn't really have a chance at any good QB's.

Good post. But back to my point. If we are excusing Cowher for draft position for why he was never able to get a QB until Ben..why doesnt that excuse work for Tomlin when it comes to Blue Chip CBs and Pass Rushers..both are premium picks and go high in the draft just like QBs? I will also include playmaking safeties like Minkah. Those guys go early. We really didnt have a chance to grab any of them. I will admit beforehand that I didnt go deep like Coryea so there maybe be some missed evaluations by Colbert/Tomlin during this period..but picking low they didnt have great chances at premium picks on defense either.

 

[squidkid]

Good post. But back to my point. If we are excusing Cowher for draft position for why he was never able to get a QB until Ben..why doesnt that excuse work for Tomlin when it comes to Blue Chip CBs and Pass Rushers..both are premium picks and go high in the draft just like QBs? I will also include playmaking safeties like Minkah. Those guys go early. We really didnt have a chance to grab any of them. I will admit beforehand that I didnt go deep like Coryea so there maybe be some missed evaluations by Colbert/Tomlin during this period..but picking low they didnt have great chances at premium picks on defense either.

i would bet there are lots more cbs,edge and safeties that turn out to be good or great, compared to qbs, that get drafted after the first 10 picks.

 

[squidkid]

Sean Payton is the prime example. He's had Brees since day 1 in 2006.

13 seasons
131-77 (.630) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Tomlin:
13 seasons.
134-74-2 (.642) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Their careers parallel each other, and the results are nearly identical. I dislike Tomlin, but it's damn hard to win a Super Bowl, even with a HOF quarterback not named Brady.

true, but you also have to take in account how much more talent tomlin has had to go along with his hof qb compared to payton

 

[Coryea]

Good post. But back to my point. If we are excusing Cowher for draft position for why he was never able to get a QB until Ben..why doesnt that excuse work for Tomlin when it comes to Blue Chip CBs and Pass Rushers..both are premium picks and go high in the draft just like QBs? I will also include playmaking safeties like Minkah. Those guys go early. We really didnt have a chance to grab any of them. I will admit beforehand that I didnt go deep like Coryea so there maybe be some missed evaluations by Colbert/Tomlin during this period..but picking low they didnt have great chances at premium picks on defense either.

Franchise QB's, and I'm sure almost everyone will agree, is the hardest position to find and most important.

Not to further the Tomlin/Cowher arguement, but under Cowher we found Kirkland, Brown, Steed, Perry, Gildon, Porter, Aaron Smith, Keisel, Foote, Ike without premium picks.

I do know we passed on Xavier Rhodes and Eric Reid for Jarvis Jones. We passed on Marcus Peters and Landon Collins in 2015. We passed on Harrison Smith in 2012.

 

[Coryea]

Sean Payton is the prime example. He's had Brees since day 1 in 2006.

13 seasons
131-77 (.630) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Tomlin:
13 seasons.
134-74-2 (.642) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Their careers parallel each other, and the results are nearly identical. I dislike Tomlin, but it's damn hard to win a Super Bowl, even with a HOF quarterback not named Brady.

The biggest difference is Ben was a Super Bowl winner before Tomlin came along, Brees didn't win a Super Bowl unitl Payton was on board.

 

[FSF]

That could be true, maybe a little of both. The NFL today is built around the passing game, the rules are skewed toward the offense in a big way. When he coached it was defense and the running game. There wasn't the roughing the QB calls like today, DB's could be very physical with the WR's.

Here are the QB's that went in round 1 or 2 while Cowher was here:
92-Klingler and Maddox went in round 1, no QB's went in round 2. We picked 11th
93-Bledsoe and Mirer went #1 and #2, no QB's went in round 2. We picked 23rd
94-Shuler went #3, Dilfer went #6, the next QB wasn't drafted until the 4th rd. We picked 17th
95-McNair went #3, Kerry Collins went 5th. Todd Collins and Kordell went in round 2. We picked 27th.
96-No QB's went in round 1, Tony Banks was the only QB drafted in round 2.
97-Drunkenmiller went 26th in round 1, Jake Plummer went in the 2nd. We picked 24th
98-Manning and Leaf went #1 and #2, Batch went in round 2. We picked 26th
99-Couch, McNabb, Akili Smith, Culpepper, McNown all went top 12 in round 1. Shaun King only QB in round 2 we picked 13th.
00-Pennington went 18th, no QB's were taken in the 2nd. We picked 8th
01-Vick went #1, Brees, Quincy Carter, Tuiasosoppo all in round 2. We picked 19th
02-Carr, Harrington, Ramsey went in the 1st. No QB's went in round 2. We picked 30th.
03-Palmer, Leftwich, Boller, Grossman went in round 1, no QB's in round 2. We picked 16th

We didn't really have a chance at any good QB's.

I’ve thought about this for years before Ben Roethlisberger came.

Before going there, to think Cowher didn’t value passing game is absurd—he played hand he was dealt best he could. Back in 2001 I held out hope an injury would befall Kordell later I year so Tommy Maddox would get his shot—and repeated that sentiment that Maddox would finish 2002 as the starter. I could do a multiple article segment on Maddox & his abilities & potential, being in right place & time & mindset what could have been.

Bottom line—Maddox gave Cowher his first reliable passing game (without O’Donnell 5 WR set) and he jumped all over it (too bad the secondary was historically bad and we didn’t have a true multi purpose threat out of backfield).

Soon as Cowher got that true franchise QB, he went unbeaten till a team cheated in AFC Championship & won it year 2 (and the QB carried us through 3 playoff wins—if Ben played in SB like he did in 3 previous games it would have been a 3+ TD win.

Now—QBs that Cowher COULD have gotten
-Brett Favre (via trade instead of to Packers)
-Bernie Kosar (was NOT done in Cleveland & was perfect fit for Steelers Offense)
-Mark Brunell
-Matt Hasselbeck
-Drew Brees (I screamed at TV for him in 2001)
-Drew Bledsoe
-Brad Johnson
-Chad Pennington (screamed at TV as well)

Favre is a stretch given no 20/20 and only draft pick Cowher could have done without trade prior Big Ben with Hall of Fame value was Brees.

I still believe Kosar 1994-95 was massive upgrade over O’Donnell & would have won us a Super Bowl 94/95.

I’m hoping that they don’t wait 20 years for a bad year with a QB that luckily drops to us, but aggressively trade up for a QB post-Ben.


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[Vader]

The biggest difference is Ben was a Super Bowl winner before Tomlin came along, Brees didn't win a Super Bowl unitl Payton was on board.

Payton took over a team that hadn't had a winning season in 4 years and was coming off a 3-13 season. Since 1992 they had made the playoffs ONE time and only had 2 winning seasons since then.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Sean Payton is the prime example. He's had Brees since day 1 in 2006.

13 seasons
131-77 (.630) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Tomlin:
13 seasons.
134-74-2 (.642) regular season record.
8-7 (.533) playoff record in 8 appearances.
1 Super Bowl win.

Their careers parallel each other, and the results are nearly identical. I dislike Tomlin, but it's damn hard to win a Super Bowl, even with a HOF quarterback not named cheating Brady.

Oh, makes sense now................................




Salute the nation

 

[bermudasteel]

Another point. For those of you on the younger side. When did the Steelers retain big name free agents little lone make bold moves in FA under Cowher. Guys like Chad Brown routinely walked. When did they make bold trades like Fitzpatrick. The answer to these questions is literally never. Tomlin couldn't carry Cowher's clipboard.

Wait.

Are you saying that the bold trade moves are/were bad??? I get the love for both coaches - but they both brought different things to the table. I don't think we can compare the eras because times have changed. Period the end.

The NFL has changed. The rules have changed and continue to change or not be upheld from week to week. Players are forcing their way out of contracts. Players broadcast their lives on social media. Teams blatantly cheat and there are no repercussions. On and on and on I could go.

But, yeah, let's blame all that chyt on Coach Tomlin and find another HC, franchise QB, new GM, new OC, new OL coach, new ST coach, new WR coach, a durable RB, a true #1 WR - shall I continue???

 

[Hines57]

Another point. For those of you on the younger side. When did the Steelers retain big name free agents little lone make bold moves in FA under Cowher. Guys like Chad Brown routinely walked. When did they make bold trades like Fitzpatrick. The answer to these questions is literally never. Tomlin couldn't carry Cowher's clipboard.

They never did but it had nothing to do with Cowher. Prior to Heinz Field, the Steelers didn't have the money to compete in free agency. Ever since Heinz Field has been open and the team has luxury suites, they have done very well paying their own free agents to be. The only times they are retaining someone is when they are too tight to the cap or its time to cut ties.

 

[bermudasteel]

Oh, makes sense now................................




Salute the nation

Well it should and he's right.

 

[bermudasteel]

I wrote this comment on Wexell's Board about Shades' season ending presser:

"MT: "We are about to begin that process with each guy individually and tailor programs to bring the best out of them and to gain some clarity about what the journey of improvement is going to look like, because that is how we collectively improve. At the appropriate time, we are going to analyze our schematics and our division of labor from a coaching staff perspective in an effort to do similar things. That’s a good component of it for us, to study the trends within the game, our place within those trends, whether we are on the right side of the curve or whether we are lagging. There is a lot of discussion to be had."

I read this first snippet from the presser at the beginning of the article and immediately got a SNL skit vibe. Wasn't sure if Wex was going "Onion" with this or not for a brief second but quickly realized these were Tomlin's actual words and not someone spoofing Tomlin. Like someone said about Jack Nicholson at a point, "Jack just plays himself."

When it comes to pressers, Tomlin has arrived at an elite level of coachspeak parody like no other.

So he should just express himself ebonically, eh??? GTFOH...every coach, not named Bellicheat, speaks to remain politically correct.

 

[Ike Kelly]

I’ve thought about this for years before Ben Roethlisberger came.

Before going there, to think Cowher didn’t value passing game is absurd—he played hand he was dealt best he could. Back in 2001 I held out hope an injury would befall Kordell later I year so Tommy Maddox would get his shot—and repeated that sentiment that Maddox would finish 2002 as the starter. I could do a multiple article segment on Maddox & his abilities & potential, being in right place & time & mindset what could have been.

Bottom line—Maddox gave Cowher his first reliable passing game (without O’Donnell 5 WR set) and he jumped all over it (too bad the secondary was historically bad and we didn’t have a true multi purpose threat out of backfield).

FSF, don’t forget Chin did deploy the Tommy Gun offense for Maddox at the expense of starting Zeroue instead of Bettis. While passing yards went up drastically, the run game suffered as well as the Cowher game plan philosophy. Defense first, offense/ball control second. In hindsight it actually prepped Bettis for his complementary role behind Parker a few of years later and extended his career.


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[slashsteel]

Well did you do the homework to see if good DBs weren't available? I mean are you trying to defend Tomlin without putting the work in? I hate to say it but that is coach-ish.

Good post. But back to my point. If we are excusing Cowher for draft position for why he was never able to get a QB until Ben..why doesnt that excuse work for Tomlin when it comes to Blue Chip CBs and Pass Rushers..both are premium picks and go high in the draft just like QBs? I will also include playmaking safeties like Minkah. Those guys go early. We really didnt have a chance to grab any of them. I will admit beforehand that I didnt go deep like Coryea so there maybe be some missed evaluations by Colbert/Tomlin during this period..but picking low they didnt have great chances at premium picks on defense either.

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[antdrewjosh]

Well did you do the homework to see if good DBs weren't available? I mean are you trying to defend Tomlin without putting the work in? I hate to say it but that is coach-ish.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Steeler Nation mobile app

Definitely dont have time to look it up like Coryea did which is why I admitted as much in my post. Just saying just like Franchise QBs CBs and Pass rushers go high. Do more slip thru the cracks then QBs I agree yes. But there are also more players who drafted later who turn out ok more then franchise changing guys the later you draft.. So again without going the legwork cause I really dont have the time I used to. Why does Cowher get a pass for not being able to draft what he needed and Tomlin does not when they have both generally drafted late..

 

[Drink IRON City]

Definitely dont have time to look it up like Coryea did which is why I admitted as much in my post. Just saying just like Franchise QBs CBs and Pass rushers go high. Do more slip thru the cracks then QBs I agree yes. But there are also more players who drafted later who turn out ok more then franchise changing guys the later you draft.. So again without going the legwork cause I really dont have the time I used to. Why does Cowher get a pass for not being able to draft what he needed and Tomlin does not when they have both generally drafted late..

I've said it before and I'll say it again.......... generally Cowher was missing 1 piece where as tomlin generally is missing many.




Salute the nation

 

[slashsteel]

Definitely dont have time to look it up like Coryea did which is why I admitted as much in my post. Just saying just like Franchise QBs CBs and Pass rushers go high. Do more slip thru the cracks then QBs I agree yes. But there are also more players who drafted later who turn out ok more then franchise changing guys the later you draft.. So again without going the legwork cause I really dont have the time I used to. Why does Cowher get a pass for not being able to draft what he needed and Tomlin does not when they have both generally drafted late..

Well it is already proven why Cowher gets a pass. But Tomlin would only get one if there was no great options available just mediocre ones. One poster in a small sample showed it wasn't the case. Tombert simply made the wrong decisions which is one of their biggest flaws off-season decision making. I like to say Tombert and they make decisions together.


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[SteelerFan448]

Well it is already proven why Cowher gets a pass. But Tomlin would only get one if there was no great options available just mediocre ones. One poster in a small sample showed it wasn't the case. Tombert simply made the wrong decisions which is one of their biggest flaws off-season decision making. I like to say Tombert and they make decisions together.

It's a good time to be remind that Cowher did not get a pass when he was coaching. He was under a TON of fire from fans for the three straight missed playoffs and because he lost too many AFC Championship games. Why does he get favoritism over Tomlin now? Because we don't even have the opportunity to criticize Tomlin for losing too many AFC Championship games.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

It's a good time to be remind that Cowher did not get a pass when he was coaching. He was under a TON of fire from fans for the three straight missed playoffs and because he lost too many AFC Championship games. Why does he get favoritism over Tomlin now? Because we don't even have the opportunity to criticize Tomlin for losing too many AFC Championship games.

Yep. Steeler boards had posters with names like FC, FireCowher, etc.

 

[topseed]

true, but you also have to take in account how much more talent tomlin has had to go along with his hof qb compared to payton

Lately?

Alvin Kamara, Michael Thomas, and Cam Jordan are pretty talented. The Saints just went 13-3, and lost their first playoff game at home as more than a touchdown favorite. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

 

[topseed]

The biggest difference is Ben was a Super Bowl winner before Tomlin came along, Brees didn't win a Super Bowl unitl Payton was on board.

Brees wasn't even with the Saints before 2006, so I'm not sure how that's relevant to your original question, which I answered. You asked: Tomlin has had and inherited a franchise HOF QB his entire career, how many coaches can say that?

Sean Payton inherited a franchise HOF QB for his entire career, just like Tomlin. And they have strikingly similar records.

 

[topseed]

Payton took over a team that hadn't had a winning season in 4 years and was coming off a 3-13 season. Since 1992 they had made the playoffs ONE time and only had 2 winning seasons since then.

Again, the HOF QB in question wasn't a part of that 3-13 team the prior season, but you're right, Payton has changed the culture there in New Orleans, and he deserves credit for that.