- Joined
- Sep 12, 2014
- Messages
- 16,337
- Reaction score
- 6,485
- Points
- 113
Colin Holb-a long snapper in the 6th ?now yinz have something legitimate to ***** at.
- Thread starter slashsteel
- Start date
I was hoping Kevin Colbert would provide details in his post-draft wrap-up press conference, but when I asked if Warren is healthy, Colbert only said, "Right now? Yes."
OK, so Greg wasn't in a car accident, or suffering from a debilitating wrist injury. But the concern by the team is real.
But why the sixth round?
Well, the Steelers would be picking 30th in the seventh round. That would give any one of 29 teams that needed a long-snapper the chance to take one in the seventh, and that's when logic dictates a team should draft a sure-thing long-snapper.
So, logic would therefore dictate that a team picking 30th in the sixth round should get the jump.
But was this long-snapper, Colin Holba, worthy of being drafted?
Yes, said the only analyst I could find willing to put his name to it. And NFL.com's Lance Zierlein is a respected analyst and son of the former Steelers O-line coach.
Here's how Colbert explained it:
"A lot of college snappers are these 6-1, 215-220 guys, which really would have a hard time snapping and blocking in our league. Colin is 6-3, 248 and has some coverage ability. Not many come along who are that size and are competent snappers."
It echoed what anonymous NFL personnel told the great draft writer Bob McGinn in last week's Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. McGinn listed three long-snapping prospects along with quotes from scouts and coaches.
On Holba:
“He actually snapped and protected."
"Pretty consistent. Pretty good.”
And on the other two long-snappers:
“It was all shield (protection) so you didn’t see him block."
“Not real fired up about him because he can’t run. You’re always looking for somebody that's an athlete. He’s snap, protect and jog down there.”
“He’s not the same athlete as Holba but at least he’s been exposed to protection. Athletic ability is where he falls short.”
All right, so Holba's the best, and if you wanted him, needed him, the sixth round was the place to draft him. And, hey, the New England Patriots drafted one in the fifth round in 2015 and he already has a ring
http://www.scout.com/nfl/steelers/story/1775025-not-among-the-disgusted
OK, so Greg wasn't in a car accident, or suffering from a debilitating wrist injury. But the concern by the team is real.
But why the sixth round?
Well, the Steelers would be picking 30th in the seventh round. That would give any one of 29 teams that needed a long-snapper the chance to take one in the seventh, and that's when logic dictates a team should draft a sure-thing long-snapper.
So, logic would therefore dictate that a team picking 30th in the sixth round should get the jump.
But was this long-snapper, Colin Holba, worthy of being drafted?
Yes, said the only analyst I could find willing to put his name to it. And NFL.com's Lance Zierlein is a respected analyst and son of the former Steelers O-line coach.
Here's how Colbert explained it:
"A lot of college snappers are these 6-1, 215-220 guys, which really would have a hard time snapping and blocking in our league. Colin is 6-3, 248 and has some coverage ability. Not many come along who are that size and are competent snappers."
It echoed what anonymous NFL personnel told the great draft writer Bob McGinn in last week's Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel. McGinn listed three long-snapping prospects along with quotes from scouts and coaches.
On Holba:
“He actually snapped and protected."
"Pretty consistent. Pretty good.”
And on the other two long-snappers:
“It was all shield (protection) so you didn’t see him block."
“Not real fired up about him because he can’t run. You’re always looking for somebody that's an athlete. He’s snap, protect and jog down there.”
“He’s not the same athlete as Holba but at least he’s been exposed to protection. Athletic ability is where he falls short.”
All right, so Holba's the best, and if you wanted him, needed him, the sixth round was the place to draft him. And, hey, the New England Patriots drafted one in the fifth round in 2015 and he already has a ring
http://www.scout.com/nfl/steelers/story/1775025-not-among-the-disgusted
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2014
- Messages
- 16,337
- Reaction score
- 6,485
- Points
- 113
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,014
- Reaction score
- 630
- Points
- 113
If they are so valued and injury is a concern, why not carry 2 LS? Or, 2 punters or kickers. They carry two players at EVERY OTHER position. Yet, these valued guys, only one. Often finding them as undrafted players. When one goes down in the middle of the season, they bring in 3-4 guys off the street, hold a quick competition, and pick one. So very difficult to find one. I wonder why we don't do that with the QB or CB or FS and have them perform at an NFL level, in fact, many times, they keep the job for a decade. From flipping burgers to an NFL career.
The Steelers have lost ONE long-snapper during a game in, what, 50 years? Warren was on the field last year for 141 snaps. All season. Walton was on the field for 310. Chickillo was on the field for 594. McCullers was on the field for 256 snaps. If the new guy earns the job (coin flip that he does), he still won't contribute as many snaps as any of the three you mention because they play a more valued position (it is why they have starters and backups), have a greater number of total snaps played so they have a greater chance to contribute, and, in the end, are more of a factor in a game.
Unless Warren retires, gets hurt, or the FO simply decides to take the young player, this kid won't beat out a 13-year veteran who is considered one of the better long-snappers in the league. They have trotted in competition for Warren before (amazing there were any left after the draft) and he dispatched them each year. The only way he takes the spot from Warren is if the FO looks at the investment they made and chooses to not look like asshats. Of course, they could stay with the better talent over the drafted kid, like they did in 2004 with Schneck and Caylor.
Again, about 85% of the league easily finds this position without spending a draft pick and at little cost. In fact, when you think that of the 8 drafted, Pittsburgh did it twice, New England did it twice, and two others failed, only 12.5% of the long-snappers in the NFL would be drafted players. Almost 90% of the league doesn't feel the position is worthy of a draft selection. If this were a medical procedure, 9 out of 10 doctors would say don't do it. You are defending the quack.
P.S. you know , troglodite brought up a good point, about the LS holding a roster spot.
Why cant we find a center who can long snap well enough.? They all do it in college. Sure would make managing the roster easier.
Why cant we find a center who can long snap well enough.? They all do it in college. Sure would make managing the roster easier.
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2014
- Messages
- 5,307
- Reaction score
- 4,795
- Points
- 113
Zak Deossie is not a good comparison. He actually was scouted and drafted almost as much as a MLB as he was a long snapper. He had very decent potential to be a positional player. Zac Deossie was 250 lbs. and ran a 4.63, a 6.89 shuttle and had a 70 KEI as a middle linebacker. The Giants (like always it seems) needed inside linebacker help that year.
That might not have worked out that way is his career, but you didn't know that when he was drafted.
Holba is ONLY a long snapper. Can't play any other position on the field. Is 248 lbs and runs a 5.09. Probably has a KEI under 60. Didn't even bench press at combine.
Comparing Holba to Zac Deossie is not a good comparison.
That might not have worked out that way is his career, but you didn't know that when he was drafted.
Holba is ONLY a long snapper. Can't play any other position on the field. Is 248 lbs and runs a 5.09. Probably has a KEI under 60. Didn't even bench press at combine.
Comparing Holba to Zac Deossie is not a good comparison.
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2014
- Messages
- 16,337
- Reaction score
- 6,485
- Points
- 113
You answered your own question. Why they don't carry two on the roster has little to do with value and alot to do with likelihood of injury. LS play about 10 snaps per game, many of which don't involve a lot of contact. However, they are CRITICAL snaps, where if something goes wrong, it's almost certain to impact the score of the game.
You better believe if it was common for the LS to get injured, teams would carry more than one. It's not like teams just rely on an emergency back-up indefinitely when one does get injured, they go out and find another one. You are taking the position for granted. Nobody misses or pays attention to it until there's a problem.
Two of the most successful teams are willing to draft LS. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt.
TMC, I can not and will not argue the economics of drafting a LS. You are 100% right about the financial side of paying 6th round talent for a LS vs getting one undrafted and paying pennies on the dollar.
The only economics I can point out is Warren is a $1M long snapper. He's a 10yr vet and only counts $695k against the cap. If he's gone this year it's only an $80k cap hit freeing up $615 in cap space (and $920k in actual dollars). Even though an UFA rookie LS would have been a cheaper option, they are still freeing up a ton of money on the position this season.
The Steelers value centers higher than any other team in the league. It makes some sense that they'd also value LS higher than most teams in the league. Although LS get limited snaps compared to other potential 6th rounders, each and every snap they do have is a potential turnover or big loss of yardage. So while gunning on KO or blocking inline on punt team, may be a snap, it is not as important a snap as the LS has. I understand investing in the guy you want, to avoid the worst case scenarios.
6th rounders are just as likely to make the roster, as they are to miss it. There are plenty of 6th rounders that do make the team, only to become Practice squad players or game day inactives that don't earn snaps (small point, Feeney is on the TEN roster since they rostered him from our PS last year, I'm still intereseted to see how he develops).
Now if he doesn't work out to become our starting LS this season, I will be absolutely bent about this pick, and it will have been a terrible waste of a potential pick by our team. There would be no excuse for that.
The only economics I can point out is Warren is a $1M long snapper. He's a 10yr vet and only counts $695k against the cap. If he's gone this year it's only an $80k cap hit freeing up $615 in cap space (and $920k in actual dollars). Even though an UFA rookie LS would have been a cheaper option, they are still freeing up a ton of money on the position this season.
The Steelers value centers higher than any other team in the league. It makes some sense that they'd also value LS higher than most teams in the league. Although LS get limited snaps compared to other potential 6th rounders, each and every snap they do have is a potential turnover or big loss of yardage. So while gunning on KO or blocking inline on punt team, may be a snap, it is not as important a snap as the LS has. I understand investing in the guy you want, to avoid the worst case scenarios.
6th rounders are just as likely to make the roster, as they are to miss it. There are plenty of 6th rounders that do make the team, only to become Practice squad players or game day inactives that don't earn snaps (small point, Feeney is on the TEN roster since they rostered him from our PS last year, I'm still intereseted to see how he develops).
Now if he doesn't work out to become our starting LS this season, I will be absolutely bent about this pick, and it will have been a terrible waste of a potential pick by our team. There would be no excuse for that.
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,014
- Reaction score
- 630
- Points
- 113
Both were 7th round picks, not 6th.
Because it is a developed skill, like kicking FGs. Regular centers don't practice it enough to have the velocity and accuracy. I've done both, snap as a center and a long snapper, completely different. I liked playing center well enough, but I only worked as a long snapper because we didn't have anyone better. It kind of sucks.
They don't carry two FBs either. I guess they don't run the risk of injury either. Or, nobody cares enough about a FB to carry a second one. Hell, don't even keep a LS on the practice squad. If one goes down, just bring in a handful of guys off the street, pick the best one, chug right along. So critical, guys that do it go from UPS to the NFL when an injury occurs.
Teams won't carry more than 1. They don't with positions that have more contact and see more snaps, like fullbacks. I'm NOT taking the position for granted. What I am also not doing is overvaluing a position that 85+% of the teams in the NFL get without drafting one. Yet, we are the oddballs and nobody can see why it is a piss poor use of resources.
Two of the most successful teams? Both won the majority of Super Bowls LONG before they ever drafted their first long snapper.
The post draft press conference and the explaination for this pick was hard to watch. I made it fun by pretending it was Omar Epps and Robert Duval instead of Tombert.
- Joined
- Sep 12, 2014
- Messages
- 16,337
- Reaction score
- 6,485
- Points
- 113
It was a... Late. Sixth. Round. Pick.
A very limited resource 40 or so picks away from free agency that somehow would have made more sense?
If the Steelers had waited until the sixth round to draft an OLB or CB, people would have been wicked pissed off about not using resources and yet, this is a piss poor use of one?
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,014
- Reaction score
- 630
- Points
- 113
Absolutely it would have. Elijah Qualls was taken right after the pick. Brad Kaaya was too. Hell, maybe he pushes Dobbs. Marquez White is a 6' corner that played at FSU. Stacy Coley is an electric WR from Miami that dropped because he struggled with injury. Jalen Myrick was still there. Isaac Rochell is a big DE from Notre Dame. Josh Carraway is an edge rusher. Josh Harvey-Clemons is a big safety that could be a potential $backer. Isaiah Ford. Noah Brown. Elijah Hood. Kyle Fuller. Treyvon Hester (who we visited). Malachi Dupre. There are PLENTY of talented positional players that went after the long snapper.
And, they will guarantee him $129,000 when, as a free agent, you can just about get any guy you want for $25,000. So, yeah, there were potential guys who play more snaps, like we get from McCullers, LT Walton, Matakavich, Williams, William Gay (also a 6th), or some other talent. Could they have missed? Sure they could, but long snappers fail at a slightly better rate than Steelers 6th round picks. And, they forked over about 5X as much cash as it would have taken to sign him as well as giving up a draft pick to do so.
It is SO difficult to believe that 26-28 other teams have found guys that can long snap without paying a premium to do so? We are not the norm, we are the oddball.
Exactly. Warren is nearing the end, I think only him, Ben, and Deebo predate Tomlin now. Doesn't hurt to have him learn from Warren for a year and play elsewhere on ST's if needed.
We saw how the backup did.
Who gives a ****. He is a late 6th rounder. Good luck to him.
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2014
- Messages
- 1,014
- Reaction score
- 630
- Points
- 113
If he doesn't beat out Warren for the starting job, he will be released and they probably won't put him on the practice squad because the position doesn't have enough value to carry two when you can just call in a few guys and have a tryout and get a brand spanking new one. When Greg Warren was hurt in 2014, they had Bryce Davis (undrafted free agent) in camp and just let him do it until Warren was healthy. When they released him, his career in the NFL ended. When Warren was injured in 2008, they called Jared Retkofsky. Retkofsky had a helluva decision to make, he either continued his $12 an hour job moving furniture or take a job in the NFL as a long snapper. But, Retkofsky led the Steelers to the Super Bowl that season. When Warren was hurt again in 2009, thankfully Retkofsky had not changed teams and loved the moving business so much, he was still available. Whew, dodged that bullet. Amazing such talented players are still out there, but moving businesses have needs too.
How could such a coveted commodity be just so available in the middle of the season?
When I said "backup" I was referring to Deebo.
- Joined
- Jan 13, 2015
- Messages
- 15,544
- Reaction score
- 3,801
- Points
- 113
Did we bring in our new snapper for a work out. As they say with QB's you have to see it come out of his hands!
Put it where the punter likes it, and the kicker likes it.
A luxury pick. If the Draft were 12 rounds, okay. But its only 7.
Or they could have just saw him at his pro day. Pretty sure we had someone at Louisville pro day
- Joined
- Apr 8, 2014
- Messages
- 13,705
- Reaction score
- 6,345
- Points
- 113