The defense is broken, can it be fixed this season or next season?

[Litos]

So you won't answer my post in the other thread? You create a new thread to discuss your biased notion?

I'm still waiting for your answer "coach"

 

[Shane Falco]

With Troy, it wasn't just athleticism. He had amazing instincts and impeccable timing. Troy was extremely gifted. Davis may be as 'athletic'; he has a way to go to get those instincts

 

[CoolieMan]

I'll start a new thread on it.

and I'll merge it with this one

 

[Litos]

With Troy, it wasn't just athleticism. He had amazing instincts and impeccable timing. Troy was extremely gifted. Davis may be as 'athletic'; he has a way to go to get those instincts

I completely agree with you but my post refers a post where coach states that Polamalu is 3x more athletic than Davis

 

[Coach]

So you won't answer my post in the other thread? You create a new thread to discuss your biased notion?

I'm still waiting for your answer "coach"

Did you read? Troy tested faster and stronger. I posted the numbers for you. Do you care to acknowledge my points are correct? Yes, creating another thread was better, to keep all who don't want to talk about away from this thread. The mods did that

Davis will not be as good as a player.

I'll say Troy is 3x the player Davis will be. If you ask me to prove an unknown ( how Davis' career will pan out ) I'll just take the overwhelming odds until enough time passes and tell you I told you son, which by years from now you'll forget the context of the discussion.

Until then Davis missed too many tackles and isn't agile or quick enough to cover in the slot. He's our 5th most valuable safety on the team when all 5 safeties are healthy. At least Thomas plays well on special teams.

Years back the Steelers unwittingly took another safety in round two. I felt he sucked, but he had 4 interceptions and a sack his rookie year. Undaunted I knew he could not cover well at all. His name, Scott Sheilds.

 

[Coach]

With Troy, it wasn't just athleticism. He had amazing instincts and impeccable timing. Troy was extremely gifted. Davis may be as 'athletic'; he has a way to go to get those instincts

Such instincts aren't coached, and I doubt Davis has them. In terms of playing speed or a 40 yard dash, Troy is noticeably faster.

 

[Ike Kelly]

Sean Davis has a loooooong way to go before he should even be mentioned in the same sentence as Troy Polamalu

That's the problem, some one wants to compare Davis current ability, who is in the 7th game of his NFL career, to a future HOF who played 13 years.

However, I pointed out the comparison between Troy and Davis in their first 7 games, each. Coach wants to use combine numbers, which don't really gauge a player's aptitude or ability in game.

So to each his own to formulate an opinion. Coach appears to have already determined Davis is a bust after 7 games


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[Ike Kelly]

Did you read? Troy tested faster and stronger. I posted the numbers for you. Do you care to acknowledge my points are correct? Yes, creating another thread was better, to keep all who don't want to talk about away from this thread. The mods did that

Davis will not be as good as a player.

I'll say Troy is 3x the player Davis will be. If you ask me to prove an unknown ( how Davis' career will pan out ) I'll just take the overwhelming odds until enough time passes and tell you I told you son, which by years from now you'll forget the context of the discussion.

Until then Davis missed too many tackles and isn't agile or quick enough to cover in the slot. He's our 5th most valuable safety on the team when all 5 safeties are healthy. At least Thomas plays well on special teams.

Years back the Steelers unwittingly took another safety in round two. I felt he sucked, but he had 4 interceptions and a sack his rookie year. Undaunted I knew he could not cover well at all. His name, Scott Sheilds.

You say you are asked to prove an unknown, and opine "the overwhelming odds" than Davis is a bust. What odds are you basing it on? Will you back that up "years" from now if you are proven wrong that Davis was a productive player?

Davis missed tackles.....blah, blah, blah.....You picked Troy as a comparison, what was Troy's missed tackles stats? I don't recall Troy's responsibility in the slot. Oh wait, I wouldn't since he played SAFETY. Actually, in his prime Coach LeBeau allowed him to freelance and play all over, either safety position, corner blitz, LB...you name it. There won't be another Polamalu. Plain and simple. So to attempt to define your agenda about Davis, with Troy is ludicrous.

Fifth most valuable safety? That's according to you. The team's website of the depth chart has Davis the backup to Mitchell and Dangerfield the 3rd backup on both FS/SS. So I guess you are smarter than the folks who evaluate for a living.

"Undaunted" you knew Shields could not cover....Sure, I can make claims too. I knew AB would be as good as he is, Harrson would be cut three times until becoming a Steeler legend. I knew Jamaine Stephens wouldn't last 3 seasons and be cut because he could stay in shape. Best put on my rubber boots because it's getting thick.


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[ark steel]

.06 in the 40 is notably faster?

I could not independently verif the 29 reps. don't trust Wikipedia with those kind of details , but it might have a link. I didn't think to look.

 

[Ike Kelly]

Such instincts aren't coached, and I doubt Davis has them. In terms of playing speed or a 40 yard dash, Troy is noticeably faster.

You are absolutely correct instincts aren't coached. But you doubt Davis has them. According to your figures and luxury of watching Troy play for his entire career, you say playing speed and 40 times Troy is noticeably faster.

Yeah, I can see the .06 faster speed easily....we all have speed geared vision to notice it.

Coach I know you are knowledgable about football, stats etc. It is real hard sometimes though to follow what you push, since its agenda based. Being open minded sometimes can only allow your comments to be more qualitative.


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[Superman]

Coach, come on. You can't honestly sit back and say you KNEW Troy would be as good as he turned out to be. You called him a goddamn bust before he even got off the stage. Something or another about:

• height
• head size
• head distance from the ground to his shoulders (whatever the **** that was)
• hair inside the helmet gave him a bad fit, resulting in too many concussions

you were hating on Polamalu from the jump. You may want to sit this one out, with your buddy Drew Henson whom you stroked it over.

 

[Coach]

You are absolutely correct instincts aren't coached. But you doubt Davis has them. According to your figures and luxury of watching Troy play for his entire career, you say playing speed and 40 times Troy is noticeably faster.

Yeah, I can see the .06 faster speed easily....we all have speed geared vision to notice it.

Coach I know you are knowledgable about football, stats etc. It is real hard sometimes though to follow what you push, since its agenda based. Being open minded sometimes can only allow your comments to be more qualitative.


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I do like you Ike because I think you get it. You just like to argue con on what I say at times, thinking it's an agenda when really I never liked the pick and see some red flags waving... More like it I see the defense in desperate need of good DB's and I do not think Davis is it.

There is 40 yard dash time in shorts, which Polamalu was .06 of seconds faster. That's how much faster he was on a track.

Or if you wish you can guess that a player like Polamalu who ran a 4.40 in 4 seconds time runs about 18 miles per hour.

20 Miles per Hour =

29.333333 Feet per Second

.06 of a second at 20 miles per hour would equal roughly 1.57 feet difference. While this is not perfect, it does help illuminate that .06 faster on a 40 yard dash time means something. Football can be a game of inches, but I will add Troy is agiler and cuts and runs with better speed. It's not measured by a test, you just have to know where and when to look to measure this type of speed.


http://www.calculateme.com/Speed/MilesperHour/ToFeetperSecond.htm

And then there is speed in pads. Troy was one of the fastest Steelers in pads that for the defense that started 5 years or more It would take someone like Rod Woodson or Ike Taylor to do better.

I think part of the problem here is if I put Davis under a microscope ( as I did when he was targeted in college, and he was bad in coverage, and off on where he should be ) and say if he had good instincts he should have done X, Y or Z, some take it the wrong way. When your instincts are off or take false step, you lose time in a game that is played fast and your beat, unless you have elitle level speed which Davis does not.

I do not think Davis has good instincts like Troy had. I do not think he has his leadership. Nor do I think Davis is equal to Polamalu as an athlete. But we are comparing a Hall of Famer to be vs a 2nd round pick who's being relegated to part-time duty on a unit where up to 7 players can be on the field at the same time.

I flat out do not like what I see in Davis from a coverage stand point or a tackling fundamental standpoint. Whether he can get a feel for the system remains to be seen, but he doesn't have it now.

 

[Stryker]

I don't think anyone has the instincts that Polamalu had.

 

[Ike Kelly]

I do like you Ike because I think you get it. You just like to argue con on what I say at times, thinking it's an agenda when really I never liked the pick and see some red flags waving... More like it I see the defense in desperate need of good DB's and I do not think Davis is it.

There is 40 yard dash time in shorts, which Polamalu was .06 of seconds faster. That's how much faster he was on a track.

Or if you wish you can guess that a player like Polamalu who ran a 4.40 in 4 seconds time runs about 18 miles per hour.

20 Miles per Hour =

29.333333 Feet per Second

.06 of a second at 20 miles per hour would equal roughly 1.57 feet difference. While this is not perfect, it does help illuminate that .06 faster on a 40 yard dash time means something. Football can be a game of inches, but I will add Troy is agiler and cuts and runs with better speed. It's not measured by a test, you just have to know where and when to look to measure this type of speed.


http://www.calculateme.com/Speed/MilesperHour/ToFeetperSecond.htm

And then there is speed in pads. Troy was one of the fastest Steelers in pads that for the defense that started 5 years or more It would take someone like Rod Woodson or Ike Taylor to do better.

I think part of the problem here is if I put Davis under a microscope ( as I did when he was targeted in college, and he was bad in coverage, and off on where he should be ) and say if he had good instincts he should have done X, Y or Z, some take it the wrong way. When your instincts are off or take false step, you lose time in a game that is played fast and your beat, unless you have elitle level speed which Davis does not.

I do not think Davis has good instincts like Troy had. I do not think he has his leadership. Nor do I think Davis is equal to Polamalu as an athlete. But we are comparing a Hall of Famer to be vs a 2nd round pick who's being relegated to part-time duty on a unit where up to 7 players can be on the field at the same time.

I flat out do not like what I see in Davis from a coverage stand point or a tackling fundamental standpoint. Whether he can get a feel for the system remains to be seen, but he doesn't have it now.

My argument is you make statements, i.e. Poor tackling, terrible in coverage, and select specific data to support them, instead of the total encompassing data.

You talk about track speeds, I am talking about game speed. You selected a comparison of Troy to Davis. That is like picking Wentz, after seven games compared to Montana. There is no comparison, because there isn't enough data to compare.

I would say Troy was faster than Woodson, and Woodson was an all-American at Purdue who ran Track.

Track speed or combine numbers are superfluous for determining whether some can play the game. So I never use them solely as determining a players ability on the field. Game tape is the most important part of evaluating.

You state Davis is horrible in coverage and tackles poorly. His low coverage ability was in his reference to playing cornerback at Maryland, not Safety. His true position. You say he is a poor tackler and has poor technique. Yet he had almost 300 tackles, a superb number, while in college. His role as a safety in college was a box defender who would lay the wood on ball carriers and receivers. Led the ACC in forced fumbles too I believe. So he has instincts, not to Troy's level in his prime of course, or even early in his career. But to call out Davis now seems entirely too premature. Especially since you are using stats for only 5 games participated.

What rookie DB has a "feel for the system"? I've only seen one, and that was Darren Perry.


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[Litos]

Did you read? Troy tested faster and stronger. I posted the numbers for you. Do you care to acknowledge my points are correct? Yes, creating another thread was better, to keep all who don't want to talk about away from this thread. The mods did that

Davis will not be as good as a player.

I'll say Troy is 3x the player Davis will be. If you ask me to prove an unknown ( how Davis' career will pan out ) I'll just take the overwhelming odds until enough time passes and tell you I told you son, which by years from now you'll forget the context of the discussion.

Until then Davis missed too many tackles and isn't agile or quick enough to cover in the slot. He's our 5th most valuable safety on the team when all 5 safeties are healthy. At least Thomas plays well on special teams.

Years back the Steelers unwittingly took another safety in round two. I felt he sucked, but he had 4 interceptions and a sack his rookie year. Undaunted I knew he could not cover well at all. His name, Scott Sheilds.

I guess you are the one that can'T read, especially what you said so let me quote you once again:

Troy is 3X the athlete that Davis is and tackled much better. Yeah he had some issues adjusting to pass coverage, but he was never described as not quick enough.

Troy's rookie year, where he did not start a game he did this:

4 passes defended, 2 sacks, 1 forced fumble. At least he flashed some obvious talent.

The odds of Davis being as good are remote.

so there, you did say he was 3x the athlete, and that based on what? you hadn't even researched their workout numbers at the time, so I expose your BS showing that there's 0,04 seconds of difference between one and the other, quite difficult for that to be 3x better.

Now if you want to backpedal (are you a biking coach?) and say that Polamalu is 3x The Player then well ****, of course he is, he's twice better than any current safety on the league and no doubt even better than a green rookie. Polamalu is a Hall of Famer, a Steeler Great and yeah, a player you called a bust.

If you want to argue about instincts there I won't discuss Sean Davis' quality, I won't bash him either because he's just a rook that was asked to do too much too early.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Asked to do too much because of injury..golson's and burns

 

[ark steel]

I do like you Ike because I think you get it. You just like to argue con on what I say at times, thinking it's an agenda when really I never liked the pick and see some red flags waving... More like it I see the defense in desperate need of good DB's and I do not think Davis is it.

There is 40 yard dash time in shorts, which Polamalu was .06 of seconds faster. That's how much faster he was on a track.

Or if you wish you can guess that a player like Polamalu who ran a 4.40 in 4 seconds time runs about 18 miles per hour.

20 Miles per Hour =

29.333333 Feet per Second

.06 of a second at 20 miles per hour would equal roughly 1.57 feet difference. While this is not perfect, it does help illuminate that .06 faster on a 40 yard dash time means something. Football can be a game of inches, but I will add Troy is agiler and cuts and runs with better speed. It's not measured by a test, you just have to know where and when to look to measure this type of speed.


http://www.calculateme.com/Speed/MilesperHour/ToFeetperSecond.htm

And then there is speed in pads. Troy was one of the fastest Steelers in pads that for the defense that started 5 years or more It would take someone like Rod Woodson or Ike Taylor to do better.

I think part of the problem here is if I put Davis under a microscope ( as I did when he was targeted in college, and he was bad in coverage, and off on where he should be ) and say if he had good instincts he should have done X, Y or Z, some take it the wrong way. When your instincts are off or take false step, you lose time in a game that is played fast and your beat, unless you have elitle level speed which Davis does not.

I do not think Davis has good instincts like Troy had. I do not think he has his leadership. Nor do I think Davis is equal to Polamalu as an athlete. But we are comparing a Hall of Famer to be vs a 2nd round pick who's being relegated to part-time duty on a unit where up to 7 players can be on the field at the same time.

I flat out do not like what I see in Davis from a coverage stand point or a tackling fundamental standpoint. Whether he can get a feel for the system remains to be seen, but he doesn't have it now.

I don't think you can just take 29.333 times .06 and get 1.57 feet and be accurate.

Wouldn't you be better calculating the mph for each person and comparing the feet/sec for each? I get 27.27/sec for a 4.4/40 and 26.9ft/sec for a 4.46/40. That is a different of .37 feet or about 4 inches.

While 4 inches can be HUGE in a football play and I don't think anyone disagreed that 4.4 and 4.46 can make a difference. What people are saying is that it is not a noticeable difference, really, unless you have the two people running side by side. I cant think of anyone on this board who can look at a guy running and say "yeah, that was a 4.4 rather than 4.46". Not. One.

 

[Stryker]

I don't know about you Ark, but 4 inches makes a HUGE difference in the bedroom...

 

[antdrewjosh]

I don't know about you Ark, but 4 inches makes a HUGE difference in the bedroom...

Ark doesn't care about that as long as he gets his

 

[Coach]

I don't think you can just take 29.333 times .06 and get 1.57 feet and be accurate.

Wouldn't you be better calculating the mph for each person and comparing the feet/sec for each? I get 27.27/sec for a 4.4/40 and 26.9ft/sec for a 4.46/40. That is a different of .37 feet or about 4 inches.

While 4 inches can be HUGE in a football play and I don't think anyone disagreed that 4.4 and 4.46 can make a difference. What people are saying is that it is not a noticeable difference, really, unless you have the two people running side by side. I cant think of anyone on this board who can look at a guy running and say "yeah, that was a 4.4 rather than 4.46". Not. One.

Can someone help us check the math?.

27.27 feet x 4 seconds = 109.08 feet covered. 26.9 feet x 4 seconds = 107.6 feet covered. The difference covered is 1.48 feet, NOT 4 inches. Do you agree with me here?

If the players are running close to each other, you can see the difference between 4.40 and 4.46 I'm sure you can too. One guy gains ground on the other. Daivs lack of instincts / awareness and slower truning ability might cost him more than his speed, which is decent for a safety, but not great.

 

[Coach]

I guess you are the one that can'T read, especially what you said so let me quote you once again:

so there, you did say he was 3x the athlete, and that based on what? you hadn't even researched their workout numbers at the time, so I expose your BS showing that there's 0,04 seconds of difference between one and the other, quite difficult for that to be 3x better.

Now if you want to backpedal (are you a biking coach?) and say that Polamalu is 3x The Player then well ****, of course he is, he's twice better than any current safety on the league and no doubt even better than a green rookie. Polamalu is a Hall of Famer, a Steeler Great and yeah, a player you called a bust.

If you want to argue about instincts there I won't discuss Sean Davis' quality, I won't bash him either because he's just a rook that was asked to do too much too early.

Troy is a better Athlete. Maybe 3x is an exaggeration, but he's clearly better. Troy is faster and stronger, and I'd be surprised if Davis can jump like Troy could, or accelerate and hit with that type of power.

And Troy is more than 3x the player right now.

So you have one over exaggeration by me and one under exaggeration my me. I'll call it even.

PS: It was not .04 difference, it was .06 in the 40 Unlike you I won't harp on that....but you can harp on the 3x the athlete comment if needed.

 

[Stryker]

Can someone help us check the math?.

27.27 feet x 4 seconds = 109.08 feet covered. 26.9 feet x 4 seconds = 107.6 feet covered. The difference covered is 1.48 feet, NOT 4 inches. Do you agree with me here?

If the players are running close to each other, you can see the difference between 4.40 and 4.46 I'm sure you can too. One guy gains ground on the other. Daivs lack of instincts / awareness and slower truning ability might cost him more than his speed, which is decent for a safety, but not great.

I ******* hate the English system. We should have bit the bullet in the 70s and just transitioned to metric...

 

[ark steel]

Can someone help us check the math?.

27.27 feet x 4 seconds = 109.08 feet covered. 26.9 feet x 4 seconds = 107.6 feet covered. The difference covered is 1.48 feet, NOT 4 inches. Do you agree with me here?

If the players are running close to each other, you can see the difference between 4.40 and 4.46 I'm sure you can too. One guy gains ground on the other. Daivs lack of instincts / awareness and slower truning ability might cost him more than his speed, which is decent for a safety, but not great.

The confusion is this statement:

06 of a second at 20 miles per hour would equal roughly 1.57 feet difference

it doesn't say 1.57 feet in 4 seconds.

I thought you were saying 1.57/second. In that case, I agree 1.48 feet in 4 seconds. I still think it is irrelevant as, for the most part, the DB's are not running straight for 4 seconds and the differences is more like to be a second or les they are running stride for stride. Even that is, irrelevant to the comment "noticeably faster" unless they are running side by side.

 

[Litos]

Troy is a better Athlete. Maybe 3x is an exaggeration, but he's clearly better. Troy is faster and stronger, and I'd be surprised if Davis can jump like Troy could, or accelerate and hit with that type of power.

And Troy is more than 3x the player right now.

So you have one over exaggeration by me and one under exaggeration my me. I'll call it even.

PS: It was not .04 difference, it was .06 in the 40 Unlike you I won't harp on that....but you can harp on the 3x the athlete comment if needed.

Its so easy to call you out when trying to BS your way to make a biased point

 

[TDX27]

I am going to scream it until, well, I don't know until when. But, damnit, they need to draft a big, athletic nose tackle that can occupy 2 linemen on all three downs. Screw this crap with only putting 2 true defensive linemen on the field. A good team will see that and beat it.