Jarvis Jones the next to leave?

[Fiji Mariner]

Huge UGA fan too MTC, and I'm not sure why the Steelers took him there either given the spinal stenosis. He does need more strength and better pass rush technique.

I was just saying that players do improve, and he has shown signs...

My points were just Coach reading into two words too much and Clete lacking the ability to read the post and take it for what it says.

I don't think he will be the next silverback, we could only be so lucky. And as I have said repeatedly he is serviceable (not what you want out of a first rounder) and that he should command 3yr 10m, not the 5th year 9 m tender.

 

[swal75]

I hate to be contrarian but I believe you have to pick this option up if he's penciled in as the starter this year but you should be drafting some competition. You don't actually have to pay it to him barring a catastrophic injury. If he's more along the lines of serviceable, you can always offer him a more realistic amount(3m/season or so) before it guarantees or cut him.

If you're not picking up the option, you should be going OLB early in the draft and looking to cut him pretty much now as he's not in our future. I assume we have some sort of offset language in his deal that would reduce his fully guaranteed salary this year.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Not necessarily. If they are looking to play more four-man fronts, maybe they should go for a true rush end rather than one of the tweeners who need to play standing up. Same idea, though.

I think they will draft both. My guess is the first 2 picks will be CB, DL, and OLB, taking the best available in each round.

The first round sets it all up. My guess is they will look at CB first because the 3-4 OLBs may not be ranked high enough for Rd 1 consideration and DL is really deep this year with guys who can play in a 3-4.

The best scenario is that they get their CB in Rd1, then an OLB in RD 2 and a DL in rd 3. The DL they get in RD 3 will still likely be a quality player who can immediately contribute in a rotation.

The worst scenario is if the CBs they like are gone in RD 1. That means they may either reach a bit on an OLB or draft a DL. The problem with DL is that it's really deep. At pick 25, the best DL will be gone and the guys on the board may not be that much better than a guy they can get in RD 2 or 3.

 

[Clete]

Huge UGA fan too MTC, and I'm not sure why the Steelers took him there either given the spinal stenosis. He does need more strength and better pass rush technique.

I was just saying that players do improve, and he has shown signs...

My points were just Coach reading into two words too much and Clete lacking the ability to read the post and take it for what it says.

I don't think he will be the next silverback, we could only be so lucky. And as I have said repeatedly he is serviceable (not what you want out of a first rounder) and that he should command 3yr 10m, not the 5th year 9 m tender.

I read and comprehended your crappy post junior and of course after being called out you try and save face by condescension, huge FAIL.

Point by point.

1). You stupidly try and fool people by saying after 3 years Jarvis and Harrison played about the same number of games. Of course Jarvis started most of these games and played ALL of them at OLB while Harrison was a special teams player and rarely played OLB in any of the games, kinda skews the stats eh junior ?

2) You refuse to acknowledge Jarvis had a small learning curve by playing the exact same system and the exact same position in the SEC whole Harrison had a huge learning curve playing in a small college with a position change and he was not smart enough to pick up the system for years so he was cut 5 times. Huge advantage to Jarvis the 1srt 3 years yet he is still an inferior player stat wise to Harrison during the same period.

3) You try and be clever and state that Harrison and Jarvis played about the same number of games as if that makes their numbers comparable. This was a poor attempt to couch your poor argument hoping we would accept this garbage on face value. without digging deeper. Of course his 1st year Harrison played ONE game and of course he was a special teams player for a vast majority of these games and rarely played OLB, think that skews the numbers junior ?



Yeah I am the one who couldn't read and comprehend your bullshit post.You made a poorly thought out and stupid post and I called you out and of course to try and save face you make a lame attempt at condescension. Here is a hint for future use, condescension only works when you are the one holding the better cards not when you are looking the fool. Another tip, there are too many astute football posters on this board for you to try and shovel **** and posters not to respond to the **** smell, eh junior ?

 

[fogdoctor]

He will probably have a breakout season, then leave in two years and people will be bitching about it as much as they ***** about him now

You mean like a season where he gets 3 sacks?

 

[Litos]

Clete have a valium and relax

 

[Coach]

Coach you're reading way to much into the right now part. Right now his stock is not comparable to Heyward or DeCastro. I live in the now, but to say you know the future is foolish. JJ has 88 tackles, 5 sacks, 1 Int, 2 FR, 1FF a few years into a injury riddled start to a career at age 26. That's 3 years into a career with a serious wrist injury and a rookie year he probably had no business being out there.

At age 26, 3 years into a career here are some other stats 90 tackles, 4 sacks, 1 Int, 1 FR, 0 FF. These are the stats of James Harrison. A similar number of games played too. Leave the past out of it (draft status). Compare the players at the same point in their respective careers. Do I think JJ will be the next silverback? No.,, but he could be, that is for the future to play out. So no, RIGHT NOW his stock (JJ) is not the same as DeCastro or Heyward. But to say you or I know whether it will increase or decrease is foolish. Once again, I live in the now and right now their respective stocks aren't comparable. I am not implying that it will be, but stranger things have happened. Hell, how many times was James cut before he became the most dominant LB in the league? Jus sayin'...

It will take what I call a reverse murphy's law for Jarvis Jones to become a good NFL player at OLB. In other words, everything that could go wrong would need to go right. At this point, how much can he improve? He tries hard I'll give him that but he's limited athletically and physically.

He's not in Jason Worilds class and has not passed Clark Haggans. Simply stated, Jarvis Jones is our worst staring season starting OLB in the 3-4 since the Steelers switched to in the mid-1980's.

Harrison is a poor example. He was cut too often ( I felt we should have kept him ) and played at a small school. The chances of Jarvis Jones becoming the NFL MVP on defense and essentially bailing us out in a Super bowl as Harrison did. are about even with you or me winning Powerball. Yeah, it can happen. I'm telling you there's a chance in a very dumb and dumber type of way. I don't know the future, but I can show you the odds. And they are very long.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Clete- I'm no trying to argue what it seems you are thinking I am so...

1) I'm not trying to fool anyone. I tried to find defensive snaps played for both players and this stat was hard to find or I would have included it as well. You claim JJ "started" most of those games, however he doesn't even play 50% of the defensive snaps. It would seem you are trying to mislead with the "starter" assertion. Sr.?
2) JJ did play a 3-4 and it was vastly different than how he was deployed in the Steeler 3-4. Compared to James he did have advantages though as he did play standing up for a bit in college after being moved to LB in the 3-4 D GA switched to. JJ had physical issues to deal with James had mental obstacles. I only state both had obstacles as nearly all rookies do in some way, shape or form.
3) from the redundancy department it seems you are addressing the same point you did in #1. I

For your help comprehending the point that started this all was simple: None of us knows what the future holds...simple

As I have said repeatedly I do not think he will be the next Silverback. James is a beast and I saw that coming a mile away and was so excited the fateful game when J Peezy swung on the stain and James got his start at tearing up the league. The comparison between the two was only to show that many would not have expected Silverback to be the most dominant LB in the league after he was cut several times and could barely pick up the playbook, nobody knew what the future would hold. JJ may get better, does he have the ceiling of James- highly unlikely, but again...he could become good. Once his career has played out we will then know,.

I have also said repeatedly that JJ has massively underperformed his draft status, that's why I specifically said leaving draft status out and only comparing players at a similar point in career (similar number of games played, snaps played they have strikingly similar stats). If you could find number of defensive snaps played for both through first 3 years that would be useful info which I was unable to dig up...far more useful than attacks and name calling.

Lastly, I have repeatedly stated he should not get the 5th year tender as he is not a 9m a year player but far closer to a 3yr 10m rotational player. Serviceable, not what you want from a former 1st rounder but it is what it is.

Hope this clears my posting up for you as I am not trying to fool people, I used the comparison only to show that NONE of us knows what the future holds as we are in the now.

Honest question: how old are you Sr.?

 

[Fiji Mariner]

It will take what I call a reverse murphy's law for Jarvis Jones to become a good NFL player at OLB. In other words, everything that could go wrong would need to go right. At this point, how much can he improve? He tries hard I'll give him that but he's limited athletically and physically.

He's not in Jason Worilds class and has not passed Clark Haggans. Simply stated, Jarvis Jones is our worst staring season starting OLB in the 3-4 since the Steelers switched to in the mid-1980's.

Harrison is a poor example. He was cut too often ( I felt we should have kept him ) and played at a small school. The chances of Jarvis Jones becoming the NFL MVP on defense and essentially bailing us out in a Super bowl as Harrison did. are about even with you or me winning Powerball. Yeah, it can happen. I'm telling you there's a chance in a very dumb and dumber type of way. I don't knuow the future, but I can show you the odds. And they are very long.

Right, those chances are very long. I think his ceiling is somewhere between serviceable and middle of the league starting LB, and I highly doubt he ever attains Silverbacker impact in a game as he sometimes did in college. He does lack both physical prowess and pass rush technique. Def not what we were looking for in a first rounder.

My whole point with you is that I live in the now, that's why I used the words right now...I wasn't trying to assert/imply that he would be in the Heyward and DeCastro stock quality. I guess I should've left the last two words off for greater clarity. As of now, haha, there is no need to tender him a 5th year...but I still don't think he will be the next Steeler gone (only because W Allen, Geathers, C Allen and a multitude of other impending FAs this year are more likely candidates to be the next ones gone). See how I nit picked your words there haha

 

[Coach]

Right, those chances are very long. I think his ceiling is somewhere between serviceable and middle of the league starting LB, and I highly doubt he ever attains Silverbacker impact in a game as he sometimes did in college. He does lack both physical prowess and pass rush technique. Def not what we were looking for in a first rounder.

My whole point with you is that I live in the now, that's why I used the words right now...I wasn't trying to assert/imply that he would be in the Heyward and DeCastro stock quality. I guess I should've left the last two words off for greater clarity. As of now, haha, there is no need to tender him a 5th year...but I still don't think he will be the next Steeler gone (only because W Allen, Geathers, C Allen and a multitude of other impending FAs this year are more likely candidates to be the next ones gone). See how I nit picked your words there haha

I think his ceiling is somewhere between serviceable and middle of the league starting LB.

WOW, here's where I disagree. Jones is ranked 60th or worse in almost all statistical categories in comparison to the other 64 starting outside linebackers. In many cases back up players who do not start are more productive. It not the system. The system is made for OLB's to shine.

This to me is a journeyman like player starting. Hardly middle of the league in terms of upside. Jones misses too many tackles, gets blocked too easily and makes very few plays. He's best suited as a backup.

I'd say he's one of the worst starting linebackers in the NFL and should be replaced.

The guy the Steelers cut, Howard Jones had 5 sacks in a limited role last year. This is more than Jarvis has in his entire career. It would not surprise me if Chickillo is also better than Jarvis but he has to play some before we can judge.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

As I have said repeatedly I do not think he will be the next Silverback. James is a beast and I saw that coming a mile away and was so excited the fateful game when J Peezy swung on the stain and James got his start at tearing up the league. The comparison between the two was only to show that many would not have expected Silverback to be the most dominant LB in the league after he was cut several times and could barely pick up the playbook, nobody knew what the future would hold. JJ may get better, does he have the ceiling of James- highly unlikely, but again...he could become good. Once his career has played out we will then know,

We didn't know who Harrison was until the game when he bodyslammed a Browns fan.

I have also said repeatedly that JJ has massively underperformed his draft status

If he was say, a third round pick, I wouldn't be as irritated.

 

[bermudasteel]

Hey Bermuda,

Are you more upset with Blake or McLendon leaving? A logical question for two guys you defended. Personally I'm happy both are gone.


PS: Waiting for my long island iced tea

Neither departure "upsets" me. I just like piling on some times because you make it so easy - so, no hard feelings...

To answer your question - I've said this as soon as the season ended - I believe the key to getting our defense scary again is by NUMBER ONE: Adding a monster interior DL with Heyward and Tuitt. There are some great options in Round 1:
1. Billings
2. Nkemdiche
3. Jarran Reed

All three, IMO, would INSTANTLY make our front 7 a top 10 again - and all three are great run defenders and they create havoc in the pocket.

My second need is at SS. We all know there's a hole now that Will Allen won't be back and Shamarko is, well, a sham...my two favorites:
1. Su'a Cravens
2. Karl Joseph

I know I don't get paid for my analysis - so, this is strictly my opinion only.

I may be coming down to South Florida sooner rather than later - keep an eye open on your PM box and we'll get that Long Island Ice Tea when I'm in town...

 

[bermudasteel]

Coach you're reading way to much into the right now part. Right now his stock is not comparable to Heyward or DeCastro. I live in the now, but to say you know the future is foolish. JJ has 88 tackles, 5 sacks, 1 Int, 2 FR, 1FF a few years into a injury riddled start to a career at age 26. That's 3 years into a career with a serious wrist injury and a rookie year he probably had no business being out there.

At age 26, 3 years into a career here are some other stats 90 tackles, 4 sacks, 1 Int, 1 FR, 0 FF. These are the stats of James Harrison. A similar number of games played too. Leave the past out of it (draft status). Compare the players at the same point in their respective careers. Do I think JJ will be the next silverback? No.,, but he could be, that is for the future to play out. So no, RIGHT NOW his stock (JJ) is not the same as DeCastro or Heyward. But to say you or I know whether it will increase or decrease is foolish. Once again, I live in the now and right now their respective stocks aren't comparable. I am not implying that it will be, but stranger things have happened. Hell, how many times was James cut before he became the most dominant LB in the league? Jus sayin'...

Standing ovation...

WOW, here's where I disagree. Jones is ranked 60th or worse in almost all statistical categories in comparison to the other 64 starting outside linebackers. In many cases back up players who do not start are more productive. It not the system. The system is made for OLB's to shine.

This to me is a journeyman like player starting. Hardly middle of the league in terms of upside. Jones misses too many tackles, gets blocked too easily and makes very few plays. He's best suited as a backup.

I'd say he's one of the worst starting linebackers in the NFL and should be replaced.

The guy the Steelers cut, Howard Jones had 5 sacks in a limited role last year. This is more than Jarvis has in his entire career. It would not surprise me if Chickillo is also better than Jarvis but he has to play some before we can judge.

Ahem, somewhere, methinks that we changed DC's recently AND with said change - the "OLB shine" has taken on a different glow...

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Coach of the 64 starting LBs you're comparing him to factor in analysis of snap counts, all I'm saying. Once again with the starter label...getting old. He's on the field for the first series and played 45% of the snaps to Harrison's 55%. We employ a rotational system at LB, we have no starters but 4 rotational players. Factor in that we run a nickel package as a base and that's how you get to the better comparison...a comparison which puts him against other players with 400 some odd snaps. You do realize that his assignment in "starting" LB is in coverage for nearly half those 400 some odd snaps right? Once again to clarify I'm not saying he's great, but he is improving...and frequently unfairly judged with this starter label.

I'll try to dig up the snap counts of other sub package players like JJ for an accurate comparison but it may take a bit as this stat isn't nearly documented as it could be. I'm actually interested to see how he stacks up against the other rotational players.

 

[kev4heels]

Neither departure "upsets" me. I just like piling on some times because you make it so easy - so, no hard feelings...

To answer your question - I've said this as soon as the season ended - I believe the key to getting our defense scary again is by NUMBER ONE: Adding a monster interior DL with Heyward and Tuitt. There are some great options in Round 1:
1. Billings
2. Nkemdiche
3. Jarran Reed

All three, IMO, would INSTANTLY make our front 7 a top 10 again - and all three are great run defenders and they create havoc in the pocket.

My second need is at SS. We all know there's a hole now that Will Allen won't be back and Shamarko is, well, a sham...my two favorites:
1. Su'a Cravens
2. Karl Joseph

I know I don't get paid for my analysis - so, this is strictly my opinion only.

I may be coming down to South Florida sooner rather than later - keep an eye open on your PM box and we'll get that Long Island Ice Tea when I'm in town...

I think you are on to something and the FO may feel similarly.
If I were to guess, I would think this could easily happen in late April.

1. Andrew Billings NT
2. Karl Joseph SS
3. Will Redmond CB
4. Dak Prescott QB (yes, I know...I don't want a QB either but the Steelers seem to be all over him)

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Alright here's some quick apples to apples comparisons I dug up Coach, just so we're not comparing a guy with 452 snaps vs guys that all have over 800 and then wondering why he ranks 60 of 64....

The criteria I used were younger OLBs drafted in the first 4 rounds within 40 snaps of JJ

Dee Ford (drafted 23rd age 25): 23 tackles, 4 sacks, 0FF, 0 Int. 479 snaps
Nate Orchard (drafted 51st age 23): 36 tackles, 3 sacks, 1 FF, 1 Int. 473 snaps
Jarvis Jones (drafted 17th age 26): 29 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 FF, 1 Int. 452 snaps
Sam Acho (drafted 103rd age 27): 39 tackles, 0 sacks, 1 FF, 0 Int. 446 snaps

Comparing apples to apples he looks dangerously average, not what ya want from a first rounder...but it is at least an accurate comparison. Not putting him up against people whose snaps range from the 800+ to 1100 range and calling him the 60th of 64 "starters" when he took the least snaps of any of our top 4 OLBs"

 

[POP]

We didn't know who Harrison was until the game when he bodyslammed a Browns fan.


If he was say, a third round pick, I wouldn't be as irritated.

If he was a 3rd round pick, he likely would have been cut already. They don't want egg on their face for blowing a first round pick, hence Tomlin says things like "JJ has played solid" to tow the company line.

 

[POP]

Alright here's some quick apples to apples comparisons I dug up Coach, just so we're not comparing a guy with 452 snaps vs guys that all have over 800 and then wondering why he ranks 60 of 64....

The criteria I used were younger OLBs drafted in the first 4 rounds within 40 snaps of JJ

Dee Ford (drafted 23rd age 25): 23 tackles, 4 sacks, 0FF, 0 Int. 479 snaps
Nate Orchard (drafted 51st age 23): 36 tackles, 3 sacks, 1 FF, 1 Int. 473 snaps
Jarvis Jones (drafted 17th age 26): 29 tackles, 2 sacks, 1 FF, 1 Int. 452 snaps
Sam Acho (drafted 103rd age 27): 39 tackles, 0 sacks, 1 FF, 0 Int. 446 snaps

Comparing apples to apples he looks dangerously average, not what ya want from a first rounder...but it is at least an accurate comparison. Not putting him up against people whose snaps range from the 800+ to 1100 range and calling him the 60th of 64 "starters" when he took the least snaps of any of our top 4 OLBs"

But you're comparing him with players drafted much later.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Pop-Ford was 6 spots off, Orchard a mid 2nd. Those were the only players at the position of OLB in the 400 snap range that were drafted in the first 4 rounds. I can't help there aren't more good comparables. Unfortunately I also can't help they drafted JJ a few rounds too early ( my guy was Jamie Collins). I left Skuta off the list of 400 snap OLBs as he was a UDFA, also a bit more of a seasoned vet.

 

[MTC]

Huge UGA fan too MTC, and I'm not sure why the Steelers took him there either given the spinal stenosis. He does need more strength and better pass rush technique.

I was just saying that players do improve, and he has shown signs...

My points were just Coach reading into two words too much and Clete lacking the ability to read the post and take it for what it says.

I don't think he will be the next silverback, we could only be so lucky. And as I have said repeatedly he is serviceable (not what you want out of a first rounder) and that he should command 3yr 10m, not the 5th year 9 m tender.

Jarvis can be somewhat of a playmaker. He's gotten in the backfield numerous times. But I dont see him getting any stronger, impacting the way the Steelers wanted him to be. I think he plays out his contract and the Steelers let him walk. He's not NFL caliber. Good guy as a person

 

[bermudasteel]

I think you are on to something and the FO may feel similarly.
If I were to guess, I would think this could easily happen in late April.

1. Andrew Billings NT
2. Karl Joseph SS
3. Will Redmond CB
4. Dak Prescott QB (yes, I know...I don't want a QB either but the Steelers seem to be all over him)

I'm completely ok with this list EXCEPT FOR - "Glass Jaw Joe" Dak Prescott...I'd rather take a chance w/ the other SEC QB that won something---Jake Coker in the 6th...

 

[ZACKB]

I don't see us drafting Billings. I could see us go
1. Apple/William Jackson
2. Joseph
3. DL/NT
4. NT/DL

Now that FA is kinda over you can tell that they want competition for Cockrell and at the ss position. High picks will be needed to find quality players that could maybe start week 1.

 

[POP]

Neither departure "upsets" me. I just like piling on some times because you make it so easy - so, no hard feelings...

To answer your question - I've said this as soon as the season ended - I believe the key to getting our defense scary again is by NUMBER ONE: Adding a monster interior DL with Heyward and Tuitt. There are some great options in Round 1:
1. Billings
2. Nkemdiche
3. Jarran Reed

I can't agree with you any stronger; Putting a beast at NT would make this D greatly improved (assuming we also upgrade secondary). But I have one large exception: Nkemdiche. His production in no may matches with his potential. His physical gifts should make him a monster, but his production in no way matches up; he has very few sacks or tackles for loss. I like the Jimmy Johnson/Big Tuna personnel models: Determine value using production as the #1 priority. Make measurable skills weigh far less. The guys is physically a monster....who doesn't happen to make many plays, for whatever reason (lacks drive, isn't a natural football player who loves the game, etc.). But I would be overjoyed if they landed Billings.

 

[ZACKB]

We run so much sub package football that we don't use a true NT very much. We can draft a guy in rd 3-4 to play that limited role.

 

[POP]

We run so much sub package football that we don't use a true NT very much. We can draft a guy in rd 3-4 to play that limited role.

Good point, but Billings is such a beast, that he could also play in subpackages. He hustles and makes plays all over. He, Tuitt and Heyward would be a real handful to deal with.