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Should we look back at Tampa Bay defenses for clues to Steelers D?

SteelVictory said:
I'm wondering if that Tampa Super Bowl win solidified this philosophy in those coaches minds?
In a way it really doesn't matter what the real causes were for all the Raiders turnovers, if those coaches believe success was due to their system then they'll carry it with them as the right way to do things.
It was a defining moment in their careers afterall.

hmm...looking back to when after SB XLIII Tomlin said he remembered his Tampa defense creating all those turnovers vs the Raiders so he had the Steelers practice returning INT's, what happened?
Tomlin's Steelers defense returned an INT in the SB.
Was that yet another defining moment to solidify in Tomlin's mind the right way of doing things?
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The difference is that Harrison wasn't even suppose to drop into coverage. I'm pretty sure Harrison wasn't the guy at practice returning ints. Tomlin was trying to get guys to block after the pick.

The TB SB was strange because you had Chucky playing against his old team and they didn't even change some of the terminology. I remember players talking about being at the LOS and knowing exactly what play was coming. Almost like the pats***** in every game they play.
 
Yeah, good examples.
IF Tomlin (or any of the other Tampa staff) truly believes that it was their system that caused all the turnovers, regardless of the true cause, they would naturally always go back to what they believe.
(it takes a special person to look back at their championship winning game and say "...well, our system didn't really have anything to do with the win...")

Why in the OP I wrote looking forward a few years, I'm meant 3-5 years (Tomlin is gonna be here awhile folks) what will the defense look like and can we use Tampa as a base?
This is defense will basically be all Tomlin's in another year or two.
What will he want it to be?
 
deljzc said:
There is very little evidence in NFL history that defenses coaches that "chase" turnovers succeed with any real success. And this all comes from Monte Kiffin (who was the real mastermind behind the defense and who Tomlin worked under from 2001-2005.

Here is an excerpt of his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kiffin

Monte Kiffin is the mastermind behind the Tampa 2 scheme, which is a slight modification of Tony Dungy's Cover 2. His defensive philosophy has several hallmarks.

1. Speed over size and strength. Coordinators that employ Kiffin-style defenses will often replace linebackers with safeties in order to put more speed on the field. In particular, linebackers must be able to cover receivers; in the Tampa 2 scheme, one linebacker frequently drops back deep into coverage, turning what looks like a Cover 2 defense into a Cover 3. Kiffin's defenses also employ quick, penetrating defensive tackles.

2. Preventing scores over preventing yardage. A Kiffin coordinator doesn't care how many yards an offense gains, as long as the team doesn't score, an approach known as bend-but-don't-break.

3. Multiple defenses from one look. Kiffin-style defenses try to use the same personnel (or the same kind of personnel) at all times, so that the offense cannot adjust its play call based on the alignment of the defensive personnel.

4. Attacking and causing turnovers. Kiffin-style defenses focus on getting the ball away from the offense by stripping the ball away from the ball carrier or reading the quarterback to make an interception. The risk is that if the ball is not stripped or intercepted, then the ball carrier on offense has a better chance of gaining more yards or scoring; the reward is that the offensive drive is stopped without a score more often, frequently giving good field position.

Starting to sound familiar? Stuff we start hearing about now that Lebeau is out the door? All the blips and quotes from camp leaning this way?


It basically comes down to whether you like the Dungy/Kiffin coaching tree or not (on a defensive side of the ball) and I am emphatically not a fan. This defensive tree is as follows: Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards, Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier and Rod Marinelli.

ALL of those supposed defensive gurus chased turnovers often at the expense of yards and points.

And when turnovers failed to happen, their defenses suffered. And turnovers are hard to coach or depend on. You look through their coaching records and turnovers bounce from 3rd one year to 20th the next. And whole seasons were lost by these coaches because of the lack of turnovers and the defense has no way to stop an offense any other way.

It's a stupid system and I'm scare to **** this is the way we're headed. You'll have great years. It happens. And you guys might think I'm stupid if we get a rash of turnovers this year and point at how wrong I am. But historically, turnovers don't last. Not nearly as year-in, year-out as a PHYSICALLY big, attacking, sack-oriented defense does. For the most part sacks do stay constant and are more dependable to your personnel.
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I'm not a fan of the Tamps 2 either. It will frustrate bad QBs but an experienced QB will carve it up.

The cover 2 has been around for a long time. The steel curtain in the 70s used cover 2. That's where Dungy learned it. Tampa tweaked it to make it a more all or nothing defense. Meaning they relied on getting pressure with the front 4. They needed Sapp and Rice getting a bunch of sacks to make the ball come out quick.

The Tampa 2 took away the bread and butter or the west coast teams which is why it was such a good defense for a time. But the pure west coast no longer exists. It has evolved to attack more vertically and that was to counter all the Tampa 2 defenses that sprung up.

I like the idea of adding cover 2 so that you can throw multiple defenses at a QB to keep them guessing. I also like the idea of staying in your base defense as much as possible. It's especially useful against the offenses that seem to think snapping the ball quickly is some genius tactic.

I feel the same way about Tampa 2 as i do zone blocking (which the Packers used some in the 60s). It's great in some situations, not great in others. I like having it in the arsenal but not relying on it all the time.
 
The idea of getting turn overs is a good one. The most determining factor in games is the turnover ratio and has been for a long time. It is likely the reason for the deflator and the monumental reduction in fumbles by the cheatriots. It would be hard to find another reason. It might be interesting to see if the ball actually being inflated this season produces change.

As to defenses that chase turn overs being successful that might be a real problem if that is all they try to do. I will say this not getting turnovers is not helpful just like not getting stops. Keeping the other team from scoring is important as is scoring on defense, and winning the field position battle.

None of those things is the answer all by themselves, but add in a few of them and you might have something special.
 
Pressure is the only thing that consistently causes turnovers and when you have mediocre to poor pass rushers in key positions like Jarvis Jones it will always be a problem.
 
Steelbar said:
Pressure is the only thing that consistently causes turnovers and when you have mediocre to poor pass rushers in key positions like Jarvis Jones it will always be a problem.
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The article that is referenced above did not even mention JJ.
 
Wingman said:
"The linebacking corps epitomizes such characteristics with players like Lawrence Timmons, Ryan Shazier, Arthur Moats, Bud Dupree and James Harrison." Now just for grins who is absent from this list of players in the above article and rather conspicuous by his absence.
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Couldn't be the slow and weak Jarvis Jones now could it be ? The moron after 2 seasons in the NFL has now bulked up to a small 243 pounds, up 15 pounds from his 228 pound playing weight the last 2 years. Slow, small and and not explosive and it took the idiot 2 years to bulk up despite the Steelers asking him to repeatedly.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...ones-bigger-and-hopefully-better-heading-into
 
Actually I can live with 243, that is pretty damn good. Anything south of 230 would never work. There are wideouts bigger than that. looking at his skinny wrists I didn't think he was capable of that. Must have been working hard with Harrison and his knowledge of the fine line of supplements. It will make or break him. Some guys have a hard time carrying weight, but his speed game wasn't working anyway. At least he should have some pop when he gets a one on one with a TE or a RB. I'd be surprised if he will be able to bring much against a Tackle though. but you never know. At least the kid is trying.
 
Jarvis gets credit for effort this year. It was not his fault he was drafted where he was. I still believe that being under 250lbs at his position is too light and really think 260lbs to 275 is a better weight for most guys at that position. James Harrison is the prototype for the position. Greg Lloyd would be the exception because of his speed and power at a smaller weight and size. I would say if you don't have that great quickness and power as well as speed at a smaller size you will likely not be a good player at that spot.
 
Steelbar said:
Couldn't be the slow and weak Jarvis Jones now could it be ? The moron after 2 seasons in the NFL has now bulked up to a small 243 pounds, up 15 pounds from his 228 pound playing weight the last 2 years. Slow, small and and not explosive and it took the idiot 2 years to bulk up despite the Steelers asking him to repeatedly.

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...ones-bigger-and-hopefully-better-heading-into
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They misprinted a portion of an article by Dejan written on August 3, 2015. JJ is actually 258. Up 15 Lbs from his playing weight of 243 last year.

Let’s start with Topic No. 1 when it comes to No. 95: He weighs 258 pounds, as of 11:35 a.m. today. Told me so himself, and this right after a hearty lunch at the Saint Vincent cafeteria.

That’s an increase of 15 pounds from his 243 weight of a year ago, again right from the man himself.

So yes, Nation, he really, truly has bulked up.
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http://dkonpittsburghsports.com/2015/08/03/steelers-camp-day-8-do-you-believe-in-jarvis/
 
SteelVictory said:
Listening to sports talk radio since Steelers training camp started and I keep hearing references to the defense Tampa had when they won the Super Bowl.
Names like Ronde Barber and Derrick Brooks where constantly brought up.
So got me to thinking, should we look back at those Tampa defenses that Tomlin was a part of for clues to possible future Steelers defenses going forward?
Maybe not necessarily the scheme the Steelers might run but more the type of player they are looking for.
Yes I understand there are several Hall of Fame players from that Tampa defense so I don't want to compare them man for man but just the player type.

For example, is Ryan Shazier the Derrick Brooks type? Can he be?
Is Brandon Boykin the Ronde Barber type?

This is the best starting roster for the 2002 Tampa defense I could find (please post corrections)
LE 94 Greg Spires
NT 92 Anthony McFarland
DT 99 Warren Sapp
RE 97 Simeon Rice

SLB 51 Alshermond Singleton
MLB 53 Shelton Quarles
WLB 55 Derrick Brooks

LCB 25 Brian Kelly
RCB 20 Ronde Barber
SS 47 John Lynch
FS 34 Dexter Jackson
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No. Tampa had a lot of talent. To run a 4-3 cover two well you need three things.

1 ) A good 4 man pass rush.
2 ) Linebackers that can run and cover
3 ) CB's and Safeties who can cover and limit big plays.

Tampa had hall of fame level people at DL, LB, and DB. We do not. RIght now the only LB I think can cover really well is Shazier, and our DB's...outside of Gay they either average or very young / unproven.

We'll see how Butler plays it. I think he's going to have to be conservative, limiting big plays and knowing our offense can score.
 
Looking a few years out, can they get there in two drafts? One draft and a free agent signing?
 
our ocassional 4-3
re dupree
NG heyward
under DT TUITT
le geathers
OLB Timmons
brooks role mlb Shazier
olb moats
cb blake
cb boykins
fs gay
ss mitchell
 
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F83 said:
our ocassional 4-3
re dupree
NG heyward
under DT TUITT
le geathers
OLB Timmons
brooks role mlb Shazier
olb moats
cb blake
cb boykins
fs gay
ss mitchell
Click to expand...

I hope to never see that lineup in a real game.
 
It was a gorgeous morning here in the Laurel Valley on Wednesday, as the sun shone on the peaceful campus of St. Vincent's College.
Well, peaceful until the first minute of team drills of the Pittsburgh Steelers' training camp practice, when linebackers Arthur Moats and Lawrence Timmons converged on rookie running back Cameron Stingily and separated him from the ball with a loud crack of their pads.
The players whooped from the sideline while the man in the straw hat and sunglasses watched from behind the offense. His expression didn't change much, but it was evident from the tone of his Alabama drawl he was pleased with what he saw.
"Helluva play," Keith Butler said flatly.
Butler is in his first few months as the Steelers' defensive coordinator, though if you talk to his players and assistant coaches, they'll tell you it's a role he's been playing in part for quite some time. The difference is now he's no longer doing it in concert with the legendary Dick LeBeau, who left after last season before joining the Tennessee Titans.
Though LeBeau technically resigned, it's clear the team wanted to move on. This is a franchise that's not used to having a sieve for a defense, and last season the Steelers ranked 18th in the NFL in yards and points allowed. That's a mediocre showing that would be an improvement for some teams but was the lowest ranking in either category for the Steelers since 1991.
The whispers from offensive coaches around the league were LeBeau, once known for the unpredictability of his zone blitzes, had become too predictable with his schemes and situational play calling. And worse, his defense as a whole had become too soft. That's not good enough in the Steel City.


It's now Butler's show, and the 59-year-old longtime assistant is intent on returning this defense to its dominant form.
Even if the rules make it harder to do that these days.
"Nah, we're going to be physical. We're going to come after people," said outside linebackers coach Joey Porter, who has a unique perspective on Butler because he played for him and now coaches alongside him. "That's why he puts us in a lot of tough situations (at practice), just to see how we're going to play. It's easy to go out there and blitz every other play. He wants it to be man-on-man, 'I'm not scheming you, I'm asking you to beat the person across from you; can you get it done for me?'
"That is Steeler football, man. That's how you find out how tough you are."
Butler, the Steelers' linebackers coach from 2003 through last season, opened training camp by telling his players to, in the words of starting defensive end Stephon Tuitt, "Just go." Butler wants them to play faster, harder and more aggressively than they did last season when they allowed more than 21 points in nine of their first 12 games on their way to a 7-5 record. The defense then briefly clamped down to keep opponents at or below that mark in the final quarter of the season. Not surprisingly, the Steelers won all four of those games, only to have the Baltimore Ravens hang 30 points on them in a wild-card round loss.
Exit LeBeau, along with retired safety Troy Polamalu and cornerback Ike Taylor, and enter Butler.
With an offense loaded with weapons and an improved offensive line, it's Butler's job to remind his players there's a tradition of much better defense to uphold around these parts.
"You have to," Butler said. "I've been to three Super Bowls since I've been here and we won two of them. All of those teams that were in the Super Bowls were physical teams. They were examples of what we're talking about when we talk physicality. James Harrison is still here, but we had a lot of guys last year that lot of the young guys saw play, and they admired them.
"It's just a matter of trying to carry on that legacy."
Butler's defense will still have some of the same elements as LeBeau's schemes. The Steelers will continue to run their traditional 3-4 front in their base defense because Butler believes it provides flexibility, with the outside linebackers being able to blitz or drop into coverage. He knows this defense and he knows it well, so well he's been serving as a pseudo-coordinator for years.
Porter said Butler has always extended his coaching to position groups other than the linebackers and would often make the halftime adjustments for the defense after LeBeau diagnosed why an offense was effective with certain plays.
"Back then, they had it on black and white on the paper sheets and they would come in at halftime and get on the board to show where everybody is," Porter said, making a decade ago seem as far away as Butler's career with the Seahawks from 1978-87. "Now, last year we have the monitors where you can see the play as it happens. You would always see him sitting down and telling guys where they're supposed to spill, squeeze, where the safety is supposed to be.

Butler is hardly new to the Steelers defense, having previously served as linebackers coach.
"He was always able to make these adjustments. He's a sharp mind."
But it seems less about scheme and more about attitude for this defense right now.
The players are getting the message. They're talking about imposing their will on the offense more than they did last year. The defensive linemen are pleased Butler wants them to attack and make plays, whereas in the past, their assignments were simply to tie up blockers and fill in gaps. And the defensive backs like the way Butler is talking about putting them in a position to "hit people when they're not looking."
During Wednesday's practice, there were a lot of big, legal hits. And when there weren't, the players on the sideline yelled out corrections faster than the coaches could.
"Don't give them a yard!" "Get off the block!" "If you can make a play, make it!"
Linebacker Vince Williams certainly made one late in practice when he lit up Stingily as the ball arrived on a short route. The crowd on hand let out an "Ooooh." Williams' defensive teammates ran over to congratulate him.

Butler, again in his spot behind the offense, gave Williams a big overhand clap.
"I'm not looking for comfort," head coach Mike Tomlin said minutes later, after the intense two-hour-plus practice had concluded. "(Physical defensive play) is on our agenda, and we'll measure it by how we hit in stadiums. We're seeing some positive signs toward that out here, but I'm not seeking comfort."
What he's seeking is a coach who can turn this defense around and make it start playing, as Porter put it, Steeler football. Perhaps Butler is already showing he's that guy.
"I think we all came to that determination," Tomlin said with a laugh. "We don't care who gets the credit."
 
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"Nah, we're going to be physical. We're going to come after people," said outside linebackers coach Joey Porter, who has a unique perspective on Butler because he played for him and now coaches alongside him
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I'm hoping Porter's coaching is something like this:



YO WHOA NIGH!!
 
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