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Should we look back at Tampa Bay defenses for clues to Steelers D?

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SteelVictory

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Listening to sports talk radio since Steelers training camp started and I keep hearing references to the defense Tampa had when they won the Super Bowl.
Names like Ronde Barber and Derrick Brooks where constantly brought up.
So got me to thinking, should we look back at those Tampa defenses that Tomlin was a part of for clues to possible future Steelers defenses going forward?
Maybe not necessarily the scheme the Steelers might run but more the type of player they are looking for.
Yes I understand there are several Hall of Fame players from that Tampa defense so I don't want to compare them man for man but just the player type.

For example, is Ryan Shazier the Derrick Brooks type? Can he be?
Is Brandon Boykin the Ronde Barber type?

This is the best starting roster for the 2002 Tampa defense I could find (please post corrections)
LE 94 Greg Spires
NT 92 Anthony McFarland
DT 99 Warren Sapp
RE 97 Simeon Rice

SLB 51 Alshermond Singleton
MLB 53 Shelton Quarles
WLB 55 Derrick Brooks

LCB 25 Brian Kelly
RCB 20 Ronde Barber
SS 47 John Lynch
FS 34 Dexter Jackson
 
No they played a 4-3 we are playing a 3-4.
 
Here's one Tomlin was on the staff and they played the steelers.

Week 7: Pittsburgh Steelers (lost 10–17)

The Steelers sacked Brad Johnson ten times, and Jerome Bettis rushed for 143 yards, as the Buccaneers fell to 2–3 on the season. After trailing 17–3, Tampa Bay finally got into the endzone with 28 seconds to go, but the result was not as close as the score indicated.

Here is the story behind the bucs also known as paper champions MT was on the staff.

The 2001 Tampa Bay Buccaneers season began with the team trying to improve on a 10–6 season. Quarterback Shaun King was benched, and Brad Johnson was brought in from free agency. Johnson broke Tampa Bay team records for passing yards (3,406), completions (340), and attempts (540). However, the team stumbled out of the gate, and started the season with a 3–4 record. The team rallied in the second half of the season, however, improving to finish 9–7 and clinched a playoff spot.

Link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Tampa_Bay_Buccaneers_season#Staff

I really hope we do not resemble the bucs in any way.

In the Wild Card playoffs, however, Tampa Bay was routed by Philadelphia for the second year in a row. Two days later, head coach Tony Dungy was fired by the management.


4 Game summaries

4.1 Preseason (1–3)
4.2 Week 1: at Dallas Cowboys (won 10–6)
4.3 Week 2: Philadelphia Eagles
4.4 Week 3: Bye
4.5 Week 4: at Minnesota Vikings (lost 16–20)
4.6 Week 5: Green Bay Packers (won 14–10)
4.7 Week 6: at Tennessee Titans (lost 28–31, OT)
4.8 Week 7: Pittsburgh Steelers (lost 10–17)
4.9 Week 8: Minnesota Vikings (won 41–14)
4.10 Week 9: at Green Bay Packers (lost 20–21)
4.11 Week 10: at Detroit Lions (won 20–17)
4.12 Week 11: Chicago Bears (lost 24–27)
4.13 Week 12: St. Louis Rams (won 24–17)
4.14 Week 13: at Cincinnati Bengals (won 16–13, OT)
4.15 Week 14: Detroit Lions (won 15–12)
4.16 Week 15: at Chicago Bears (lost 3–27)
4.17 Week 16: New Orleans Saints (won 48–21)
4.18 Week 17: Baltimore Ravens (won 22–10)
4.19 Week 18: Philadelphia Eagles (lost 13–17)
4.20 NFC Wild Card: at Philadelphia Eagles (lost 9–31)
 
I remember an earlier time when Coach McKay said he did not like being referred to as the worst team in the NFL, he didn't think they were the worst, maybe second worst but not the worst. This is also a team that had a quarterback named Ryan Leaf for a while.
 
There really is no 3-4 4-3 anymore or at least very little of it. Almost no one plays with a fullback anymore so that is a minimum of 3 wr set. I've seen them play two high safeties lots if not exactly a Tampa Two. Polamalu was a tweener linebacker/ safety who was the lynchpin (when he was younger and healthier) to playing most of the exotic defenses they used in the past. I think what they are saying is that they are expecting more from their Defensive Lineman than taking on blockers. I think from their setup in the cover unit that they will play more zone than man. Just hope it doesn't work like it has for Tomlin's buddy Cory Chamblin in Saskatchewan (who as a HC replaced his DC with himself) who is playing cover instead of pressure and just getting eaten up.
 
Tomlin's first NFL job was as a db coach in TB in 2001-2005. He wasn't the DC in TB. He was then DC for one year in Minnesota. Tomlin is familiar with the 4-3 Tampa-2 defense but he isn't a guru. He was a DB coach not some type of innovator.

There are still huge difference in the 3-4 and 4-3. I don't understand this incessant need to merge the concepts. They want DL to be more up field and penetrate more... ok guess what happens to gap control when you have 3-4 DL shooting up the field and through gaps? You have the worst defense since 1991. I have no problem with trying to be better. But trying to make the 3-4 like the 4-3 is just pissing in the wind. It isn't setup to do the things they are trying to do.
 
I think what they mean is that after first down there is very little base defense anyway. They have been playing 4 down lineman on passing downs for years. So they want Tuitt and Heyward to be more than they have been in those situations. I'd like to think they will be lining up in a base three-four on first downs always. There is so much situational substitution in the NFL it is almost impossible to say that a team is just this or that.
 
Tomlin is not a very bright guy and the more input he has on the defense the worse it will get. No more LeBeau to cover his ineptness.
 
Wingman said:
Here's one Tomlin was on the staff and they played the steelers.

Week 7: Pittsburgh Steelers (lost 10–17)

The Steelers sacked Brad Johnson ten times, and Jerome Bettis rushed for 143 yards, as the Buccaneers fell to 2–3 on the season. After trailing 17–3, Tampa Bay finally got into the endzone with 28 seconds to go, but the result was not as close as the score indicated.

Here is the story behind the bucs also known as paper champions MT was on the staff.





i remember that game , was not the one we started with a long bomb to plaxico ?
Click to expand...
 
Whole thing comes down to this for me. If they are going to play some low risk, keep it in front of you, tackle the ball defense Mike Tomlin is stupid and the Rooney's were high when they gave him the extension. And that is what I took from the article I read yesterday about their zone defense. This team can be in the middle of the pack for yards and even points allowed. They seem all concerned about giving up big plays, but they should have a sit down with their new analytic guru. What they really need to do is bring pressure and create turnovers. If they are in the bottom half of turnovers they will be exactly what they were last year, but with the tougher schedule out of the playoffs. The offense can get 18-24 points on its own via drives starting inside its own 30. The rest has to come from opportunities created by turnovers and short fields. Go back and watch any of their wins last year, particularly the bigger ones like beating the Colts. It is all turnover driven. That won't happen with a safe defense. Rip and strip every tackle, bring big pressure and allow DB's to take some risks to break on the ball. The whole thing.
 
Tunch did a nice presentation on the cover two on the steelers web site today. It looks like a lot of time will be available for the qb based on what will be rushing the passer. Consider the 4 rushers Jarvis, Tuitt, McClendon, and Heyward. Tackle and guard on one, center and guard on one tackle on one and tight end on one still leaves running back and three wides loose in the secondary and the running back can chip if needed. Looks like lots of blocks to stop the line and some steady 4 or more yards per carry on draws and delays.
 
Wingman said:
Tunch did a nice presentation on the cover two on the steelers web site today. It looks like a lot of time will be available for the qb based on what will be rushing the passer. Consider the 4 rushers Jarvis, Tuitt, McClendon, and Heyward. Tackle and guard on one, center and guard on one tackle on one and tight end on one still leaves running back and three wides loose in the secondary and the running back can chip if needed. Looks like lots of blocks to stop the line and some steady 4 or more yards per carry on draws and delays.
Click to expand...

He did a good job and I understand the coverage. I just think it's old hat now. Teams have started flooding the zones and running delays. It also hinges on the ability of the safeties and CB to diagnose plays quickly. Right now that means relying on a CB that was horrible last year in Allen and somebody that hasn't played much at all in Thomas. I understand they want to get more TOs. But I'd rather get more pressure.
 
There is very little evidence in NFL history that defenses coaches that "chase" turnovers succeed with any real success. And this all comes from Monte Kiffin (who was the real mastermind behind the defense and who Tomlin worked under from 2001-2005.

Here is an excerpt of his wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monte_Kiffin

Monte Kiffin is the mastermind behind the Tampa 2 scheme, which is a slight modification of Tony Dungy's Cover 2. His defensive philosophy has several hallmarks.

1. Speed over size and strength. Coordinators that employ Kiffin-style defenses will often replace linebackers with safeties in order to put more speed on the field. In particular, linebackers must be able to cover receivers; in the Tampa 2 scheme, one linebacker frequently drops back deep into coverage, turning what looks like a Cover 2 defense into a Cover 3. Kiffin's defenses also employ quick, penetrating defensive tackles.

2. Preventing scores over preventing yardage. A Kiffin coordinator doesn't care how many yards an offense gains, as long as the team doesn't score, an approach known as bend-but-don't-break.

3. Multiple defenses from one look. Kiffin-style defenses try to use the same personnel (or the same kind of personnel) at all times, so that the offense cannot adjust its play call based on the alignment of the defensive personnel.

4. Attacking and causing turnovers. Kiffin-style defenses focus on getting the ball away from the offense by stripping the ball away from the ball carrier or reading the quarterback to make an interception. The risk is that if the ball is not stripped or intercepted, then the ball carrier on offense has a better chance of gaining more yards or scoring; the reward is that the offensive drive is stopped without a score more often, frequently giving good field position.

Starting to sound familiar? Stuff we start hearing about now that Lebeau is out the door? All the blips and quotes from camp leaning this way?


It basically comes down to whether you like the Dungy/Kiffin coaching tree or not (on a defensive side of the ball) and I am emphatically not a fan. This defensive tree is as follows: Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards, Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier and Rod Marinelli.

ALL of those supposed defensive gurus chased turnovers often at the expense of yards and points.

And when turnovers failed to happen, their defenses suffered. And turnovers are hard to coach or depend on. You look through their coaching records and turnovers bounce from 3rd one year to 20th the next. And whole seasons were lost by these coaches because of the lack of turnovers and the defense has no way to stop an offense any other way.

It's a stupid system and I'm scare to **** this is the way we're headed. You'll have great years. It happens. And you guys might think I'm stupid if we get a rash of turnovers this year and point at how wrong I am. But historically, turnovers don't last. Not nearly as year-in, year-out as a PHYSICALLY big, attacking, sack-oriented defense does. For the most part sacks do stay constant and are more dependable to your personnel.
 
We are not going to have out DL penetrating all the time..they will just be given more chances. They will still keep some hold them up then react principles while also calling more plays for Tuitt and Heyward to get up field..
 
freak said:
Wingman said:
Here's one Tomlin was on the staff and they played the steelers.

Week 7: Pittsburgh Steelers (lost 10–17)

The Steelers sacked Brad Johnson ten times, and Jerome Bettis rushed for 143 yards, as the Buccaneers fell to 2–3 on the season. After trailing 17–3, Tampa Bay finally got into the endzone with 28 seconds to go, but the result was not as close as the score indicated.

Here is the story behind the bucs also known as paper champions MT was on the staff.





i remember that game , was not the one we started with a long bomb to plaxico ?
Click to expand...

No, Plax had 3 catches for 26 yards in the game.
Click to expand...
 
Funny thing is for years now all we have heard is how people couldn't wait til Tomlin had the opportunity to put his own stamp on the defense. To not have Lebeau to fall back on..he is doing just that and before one game let alone one week of camp those same people are already bashing those plans and saying he should stay with what we been doing..I just don't get it..
 
antdrewjosh said:
Funny thing is for years now all we have heard is how people couldn't wait til Tomlin had the opportunity to put his own stamp on the defense. To not have Lebeau to fall back on..he is doing just that and before one game let alone one week of camp those same people are already bashing those plans and saying he should stay with what we been doing..I just don't get it..
Click to expand...

I know. You would think we all saw enough of the dreaded 10 yd cushion on 3rd and 1. Maybe not though.
 
antdrewjosh said:
Funny thing is for years now all we have heard is how people couldn't wait til Tomlin had the opportunity to put his own stamp on the defense. To not have Lebeau to fall back on..he is doing just that and before one game let alone one week of camp those same people are already bashing those plans and saying he should stay with what we been doing..I just don't get it..
Click to expand...

Wait till you see it on the field and then you will be able to tell if it is a good idea or not. In looking at it on the white board I see lots of runs being given up on delays and lots of safety valve dump offs that kill us with yaks. It will only take one or two guys to try and jump a route for us to get beat deep. There are lots of different things to keep in mind regarding this defensive twist we may see so I will reserve judgement till then. I still do not believe the problem was with our coach as do some, but with the people we had and their abilities at the time.
 
That's what I plan on doing waiting til I see it before I label it a failure
 
t basically comes down to whether you like the Dungy/Kiffin coaching tree or not (on a defensive side of the ball) and I am emphatically not a fan. This defensive tree is as follows: Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards, Mike Tomlin, Leslie Frazier and Rod Marinelli.

ALL of those supposed defensive gurus chased turnovers often at the expense of yards and points.
Click to expand...
I'm wondering if that Tampa Super Bowl win solidified this philosophy in those coaches minds?
In a way it really doesn't matter what the real causes were for all the Raiders turnovers, if those coaches believe success was due to their system then they'll carry it with them as the right way to do things.
It was a defining moment in their careers afterall.

hmm...looking back to when after SB XLIII Tomlin said he remembered his Tampa defense creating all those turnovers vs the Raiders so he had the Steelers practice returning INT's, what happened?
Tomlin's Steelers defense returned an INT in the SB.
Was that yet another defining moment to solidify in Tomlin's mind the right way of doing things?
 
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