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This should finally end this debate...

antdrewjosh

antdrewjosh

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In the paper that shall not be named there is an article about how much easier the Steelers had it finding OLB prospects in the 90s and early 2000s. Bill Cowher himself said it was easier because fewer teams played the 3-4. Players they were able to get in the second and third would be first round guys today. Would link it but we all know the rules. Myself and other have suggested this before only to be told we were making excuses for Tombert. Just thought i would share
 
antdrewjosh said:
In the paper that shall not be named there is an article about how much easier the Steelers had it finding OLB prospects in the 90s and early 2000s. Bill Cowher himself said it was easier because fewer teams played the 3-4. Players they were able to get in the second and third would be first round guys today. Would link it but we all know the rules. Myself and other have suggested this before only to be told we were making excuses for Tombert. Just thought i would share
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I have always thought this and it makes sense but you still are an excuse maker. :)
 
Well, you know as well as I do that you "can't believe what you read in the papers/can't believe what a (former) coach says because _ _ __ _ _ _ _ _" Unless of course that paper/coach says something negative towards Tomlin/Colbert. Then of course it's perfectly rational.
 
so that would suggest Colbert isn't that good at drafting unless things are put on a platter for him.

:towel2:
 
Sounds like an excuse to me.

Maybe if we quit drafted Tampa-2 linebackers like they are premier positions in our 3-4 defense, we'd be a little bit better on defense.
 
Then he better tell Bill Cowher how wrong he is also
 
deljzc said:
Sounds like an excuse to me.

Maybe if we quit drafted Tampa-2 linebackers like they are premier positions in our 3-4 defense, we'd be a little bit better on defense.
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This. It is absolutely an excuse. If you have trouble drafting guys later, then change your draft strategy. They did alright drafting Woodley in the second round and when they took a chance on one in the first, they may have made a poor decision. We will see what Jones does this season.
 
Is that your excuse for the Jarvis pick? Why is it other teams draft them but we can't ?

Tombert needs to hit the road
 
TAS said:
Is that your excuse for the Jarvis pick? Why is it other teams draft them but we can't ?
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That was my fault - I picked him #1 too. I had no idea he would be light as a feather. The chicken legs should have tipped me off.
 
That article isn't news at all. No idea what debate is ended with it.
 
Hanratty said:
Doesn't explain away the taking of a small, slow and weak OLB in the 1st round with huge medical concerns now does it ?
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The medical concerns excuse is getting old. Call him small, slow[ish], and weak, but going on year 3 and the "medical concerns" are not an issue. I personally don't think Jarvis is that slow, he's not blazing fast, but I can see him being a 4.6/4.7 guy when completely healthy...I also have an issue with the 40 yard dash to begin with, some people can translate that speed onto the field with the added weight of equipment, others can't. I think it's a worthless measurement when it comes to football players. Jarvis also didn't look that weak at the start of the year, before he dislocated his wrist, making it completely impossible to keep any strength he had gained during the offseason by not allowing him to work out.

Can we say he hasn't worked out because he's been hurt? Sure we can, but it's not like this has been 5 years of it, this will be his third year, and in the past most OLB we've drafted barely saw the field the first couple years...

It's becoming the latest dead horse discussion around here with very little common sense thrown into it. You either hated the pick or were indifferent to it. Because no one loved it. I wasn't thrilled with it, but I'm also going to look at things objectively and not simply call him and bust and ignore anything good he does to make that point.
 
yes it's harder to find a player for the 3-4 but it isn't an excuse for bad drafting. I think Worilds was picked half/one round ahead of where he should have, Jarvis Jones was a total reach, hope he at least becomes a serviceable starter for the team
 
Pretty interesting but I suppose it depends on how you spin this thing. Larry Foote I believe was 4'th round, James Harrison was a F/A, Jason Gildon and Joey Porter 3'rd round, Greg Lloyd 6'th round, Carlos Emmons 7th round. Then we have the few busts from the 3'rd round that never made it with us. Of course you have guys that played very well for us taken in round two such as Kirkland, Woodley and Brown although none will ever sniff the HOF unless its for a visit and there's Worrilds in round #2 who was decent but never played like a second rounder. Which brings me to Uncle Jarvis who as we all know was our #1 pick, 17 to be exact and now we come to make or break year for him. I guess what I'm trying to say is you never know what you really have until you get these guys in here and see how they practice, adapt to playing in the NFL and their overall attitude. Its all comes down to a crap shoot really!
 
Interesting take on the Jones sack of Newton. I've heard many times that Jones was thrown like a rag doll into Newton. On some level I guess this is true as when Jones splits the double team of the LG and LT, the LT resorted to grabbing Jones by the facemask, twisting his head and keeping Jones from getting a clean shot at Newton. What's important to me is that Jones initially beat the double team attempt and had Newton in his sights and that the LT felt he was beat so badly that he resorted to facemasking Jones in order to attempt to keep Newton from getting sacked. In any event, I don't see Jones getting rag dolled like he was stonewalled or beat down physically. If you want to call the illegal act rag dolling, it happened because Jones beat the double team and was going for a clean sack of Newton ... i.e., he won the battle.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000398779/Newton-s-fumble-recovered-by-Worilds

Jones Newton.JPG

Pic captured at :36 of the video above

Edit: This doesn't mean that I think Jarvis will suddenly be an All-Pro this year. It is evidence however that he was improving last year before the injury.
 
SteelBuckeye please stop with the truth of what happened on that play please. Jones did absolutely nothing on that play. Jones was in the process of getting manhandled and rag dolled and was luckily thrown into a sack and forced fumble. Stick to the facts according the this board please.

Also this is by no means an endorsement of Jones. He has to stay healthy and be huge for us this year.
 
What's interesting to me about that play is that it was not the first time that the Panthers LT resorted to facemasking Jones in an attempt to keep him from sacking Newton. If you remember, Bell was called for a facemask against Jones with about 2:30 seconds left in the 2nd Qtr. That indicates that Jones was actually winning a fair portion of the battles between the two (at least to me).
 
Sorry jobs wasn't winning a fair share of anything.he was still getting completely take. Out of plays on a consistant basis. Keep riding that jones train but don't disappear or consul with excites at the end of this year when that train crashes
 
Xc944 said:
Sorry jobs wasn't winning a fair share of anything.he was still getting completely take. Out of plays on a consistant basis. Keep riding that jones train but don't disappear or consul with excites at the end of this year when that train crashes
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Thing is, I'm not sure that Jarvis will ever live up to being a first round pick. I'm also not sure that he won't. I do know that strictly as a "fan" of the Steelers, I hope the light bulb comes on for him. If not, it's not like I'm going to run out and commit Hari Kari. He'll be just another football player that didn't make it.

On the other hand, if the light does come on, I'm not going to go out and throw a party. He'll be an integral part of the team and a guy that I root for on when the Steelers play.

I'd rather enjoy seeing him succeed than fail. jmo
 
You guys are hilarious. Bill Cowher says it and now we are just going to ignore it and turn this into a Jarvis sucks thread lol. Just act like it was never said on this board that 90s and early 2000s Steelers that the success we had getting great pass rushers had nothing to do with the fact we had run of the mill when it came to the Tweeners. Guys who played DE in college but could convert to OLB for us. That was huge cause it allowed us to draft other positions cause we knew we could try and get those guys later because no one wanted them but us. Cowher himself said the guys we were able to get later would be high draft choices now. It was all because Cowbert (mainly Cowher had the magic eye when it came to LBs) Yeah the article is in my head only cause you know we cant link that paper on the board.
 
I think it does make a point that it is harder to draft good 3-4 linebackers now than it was before with so many more players being selected. That as far as it goes is true. But changing the type of player drafted from a smallish defensive end to a smallish linebacker makes no sense. Steel buckeye provided some excellent material regarding sparq scores and how the players with the better scores were almost always more productive and better players than those with out the better scores regardless of tape. JJ was below the line significantly and there were better prospects available. Shazier on the other hand was better than the average by a big margin.

Point is I would not have picked JJ as it seems we selected the same player that Sams is from the previous draft, to bad for us. I hope they continue to look at the sparq scores and go with the defensive ends to transition instead of the linebackers that play like underdeveloped safeties.
 
I think the point of the article is that players like Joey Porter who was drafted in the 3rd round probably will not be there now a days. He probably would be a first rounder. The article holds true. Doesn't mean our drafting has not been below the line though. If Jones would of been a third rounder the dislike of the pick might not be so strong....Then again maybe not..
 
Aww heck, we weren't the only ones fooled by the Big 3 OLBs that year. As I recall, many folks were hoping Mingo or Jordan fell to us. Mingo, Jordan and Jones ... so far a disappointing draft class for first round OLB/Edge guys.

Edit: and this is where things like SPARQ should be used as a tool, not a complete talent evaluation. I haven't looked it up (yet) but I'm sure that Mingo and Jordan's SPARQ indicated they were going to be elite talents.
 
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