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Marcus Mariotta
- Thread starter madinsomniac
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Agree with you 100%. I think the only way this guy makes an average or better career in the NFL is if he ends up in Philly. He and Chip can either go to the HOF or unemployment line together.
The player without the system is not the same on these type guys,.
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Vader I agree with a lot of what your saying but you are taking all this wrong. I am not comparing qb's and rb's I am giving an example what happens without a good back up. Your right other then the Cards who else can win without their #1 qb, but does that mean you don't try and improve? I hope your right about Ben and yeah he has played back to back 16 games seasons and yeah Haley has done a great job not getting him hit...yes yes yes. Like I said in my post this is all for nothing cause he will not be there but if he were to be there which is what the post was about right.....I, ME would take him at 22. You are always talking about how we piss our draft picks away, so let me ask you do you draft BPA or need?
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I always draft BPA except for 2 areas (QB and RB). I don't count kickers. I don't value RBs highly in today's NFL. QBs are hard to find and when you have one like Ben I don't get rid of him. But if I were going to take a QB he must have a few characteristics to play in today's football world. He must have a strong arm, not injury prone and will fit an NFL offense. MM IMHO doesn't have a great arm. He also didn't play in a pro offense. I don't like gimmick QBs.
Right now if an Aaron Rodgers fell to 22 I would take him... knowing what I know today. Right now he would be a college QB backing up a 33 year old QB that could play many more years. Ben is a big QB and has actually gotten better with his maturity. Unless I plan to trade the QB later (like the pats** do at times) I'm going to take the BPA that isn't a QB or RB. That's just my draft philosophy. I know Ben can win a SB so I'm going to help him on offense or I'm going to make the defense better. I'm not going to worry about 5 years from now and teaching a gimmick QB how to play in the NFL.
BTW AZ's QBs sucked when Palmer went down. They won by defense and special teams. Their QB play was close to the worst in the league. But again you are dealing with an oft injured, immobile, 35 year old QB. Ben is none of those things. They need a QB because Palmer isn't going to last much longer and they have all the tools to win now with a QB. The Steelers are in the opposite category.
If he's there - I'd have no problem w/ the pick. But, I highly doubt that the team in Eastern PA let's that happen...
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You have to right to your opinion but it sounds to me you are picking and choosing. You say you go BPA except 2 positions one of them the most important position in the game, but that's your right and I am cool with that. I feel all the talk about gimmick qb and a system qb is all fine but hey if the guy can show he can throw and is knowledgeable then I think that's has to play into account. Listen we are talking about a player who might go #1 overall, if he is there at 22 I think you pull the trigger no matter need or no need.
Now as for Rodgers and knowing now, heck if I knew last week what I know now about powerball I would be one of the winners too. That is the thing about the draft it is a crap shoot you just don't know, I agree Ben is a stud I love the way the guy plays but you always have to have a plan B. We have no idea if Ben takes a hit that god forbid is his last and then what, Bruce and Landry....no thank you. I agree with what you have been saying about he may sit for 4 years, hey if that means Ben is playing 4 years I would take that. What I am saying is here is a guy with #1 talent starring us in the face at 22 and very good insurance for Ben I am doing it. I know we have needs but 1 pick is not going to cure our defense but it could cure our offense if Ben goes down, great insurance IMO.
Now you aske for one team that won with a back up qb I gave you the Cards, you didn't ask for anything more, lol! Yeah they are a good defensive team and yeah they are just the opposite of us but hey you asked I threw it out there. In the end it don't matter cause MM will not be there at 22 but heck this is fun to talk about........
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Everybody picks and chooses. Would you draft the highest rated punter on the board in the first round? Would you ever draft an OG #1 overall?
The problem with taking MM is the exact reason why you want to take him. He isn't insurance for Ben since you can't count on a guy that never plays to be the backup. They are always going to have a vet #2. So if Ben goes down (the season is over anyway) but MM still wouldn't see the field. Add to that, that MM is going to take more time because he's never played much under center and has never ran a pro offense. By the time he is ready it's 2nd contract time and you still don't know what you have.
One guy can make a difference on defense. Get a pass rushing LB or a shut down CB and then you have something. I'm not drafting a guy 22nd overall that I hope doesn't play for 5+ years. I'm sure he won't fall that far anyway so the decision won't really have to be made.
The problem with taking MM is the exact reason why you want to take him. He isn't insurance for Ben since you can't count on a guy that never plays to be the backup. They are always going to have a vet #2. So if Ben goes down (the season is over anyway) but MM still wouldn't see the field. Add to that, that MM is going to take more time because he's never played much under center and has never ran a pro offense. By the time he is ready it's 2nd contract time and you still don't know what you have.
One guy can make a difference on defense. Get a pass rushing LB or a shut down CB and then you have something. I'm not drafting a guy 22nd overall that I hope doesn't play for 5+ years. I'm sure he won't fall that far anyway so the decision won't really have to be made.
I understand what you guys are saying, and you make sense. My only thing here is you are drafting 22 or 21 or whatever the heck it is (I have had a few beers). I think by then there are no sure fires. What if you draft a Mariotta and he looks great in preseason or Ben gets hurt for a few and he looks good? Maybe you could parlay that into more a bunch of picks?
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Yeah Vader kinda funny we have been going back and forth and it has been fun but we both know he won't be there at 22. I think using that punter example is a little far fetched, but I get what your saying. Here is where I guess we disagree, you think just because he is a so called gimmick QB he can't play that position in the NFL. I feel that because he is a good athlete he can. If you feel this guys has no talent then that is fine but I feel this guy has talent. Do I think he could come right in game one and play , no but I do feel he can learn from one of the best in Ben and be ready is something happens to him. I do not like having a vet QB as a back up long term, what is a vet QB? A guy who is either at the end of his career or a guy who nobody wants or feels can be a starter. Either way a vet QB could be good for one game but not much after that, with a QB like MM I feel we would still have a chance moving on in the season/playoffs. So you feel that if Ben goes down we are done and I feel that way now, but throw in a young QB with talent it don't have to be that way. And since QB is the very most important position I would make that trade of drafting him at 22 with a chance he sits for 4 years vs the thought of every time Ben gets hit it could be Bruce and/or Landry time.
I am not so sure one guy can fix this defense it will be one hell of a start but we have so many holes and so many questions it is not funny. The #1 question is what type of defense are we going to be, they have said we are going to play some 4-3 what does that mean and how do we draft for that? DE and ILB are the only positions we are set at between guys that will get cut or retire plus fa's one guys cannot fix this defense. Even if we get a stud rusher or a shut down corner we need the pcs are them to get us back to being a good defense. Let's hope a good draft and some nice fa moves put us there.
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All of this might be true, but what if you think MM is a stiff? Aaron Rogers had all the tools, MM doesn't. What if you conclude that he's just a non jackass version of Manziel? No way would you take him. In some ways, he's an even greater risk than Winston. Winston's problem is that he's an ***. He has all of the physical tools, and apparently, he's fairly smart (bookwise, not lifewise). It's just that he's such an ***, you'd have to be nervous that he was going to get into some sort of fix that's going to land him in the slammer.
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I never said he didn't have talent. He reminds me of a weaker armed Vick. I'm just not a fan of running QBs. It's the same issues I had with Kordell back in the day. They learn in high school and college to look for their primary target and if he isn't open run like hell. It becomes ingrained in them. It's like sending in an army and telling them to try their best but if the fight is too hard come back home. Hell they are coming back home before they leave (in their minds).
Also I can't remember the last time the Steelers didn't have a vet QB around.... some times two of them. The reason is that you can't throw Landry Jones out there against a real NFL team his first year. The Steelers and most NFL teams understand you can't rely on someone you've never seen play an NFL game.
Also Ben and MM styles are so far apart I'm not sure what MM could learn from Ben. How many truly good QBs were mentored by another QB? Rodgers? I guess. Who was Manning's mentor? Or Eli's? Who mentored Brees? Most QBs are either suck or become good on their own.
Anyway, MM won't fall that far so the point is moot but if I were the Steelers I'd wait a few years before drafting Ben's replacement.
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This is it. Ben will play another 6, maybe 7 years. You draft his replacement when he has about 2 years left. the new qb should be ready by his third year. It's too early to look for Ben's replacement.
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Totally agree.
BTW is anyone listening to Warner on NFL Network? He is talking about MM and how he hasn't called a play since high school.
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Some of these guys, like MM, RG3, and Johnny football, would actually be better served by being mid round guys, with no pressure to produce right away. Without the pressure to hit the ground running, guys like Vince Young could be developed into solid backups, with some even becoming decent starters 6-7 years down the road, like Rich Gannon did. These guys get thrown to the wolves, get labeled busts, and are out of the league in 3-4 years. You can't tell me that a Vince Young, with 8-9 years in the league, wouldn't be a better reserve than Landry Jones. Johnny Football, with all of his faults, might long term be a solid backup qb, but because he was overdrafted, and overhyped, he's going to be out of the league before he has a chance to develop. Hell, as much as Tim Tebow sucked, if your qb got hurt in a game, would you rather see him, or Landry trotting out onto the field? If Tebow had been a 5th round pick, he might still be on a roster.
He's pretty fast - 4.5 40...
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We are agreeing on a lot of stuff this week lol. It is a waste to draft a high ranked QB and let him sit for 6 years. Gradkowski can win a game or two in a pinch if he needs to.
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haha yup. Gradkowski isn't going to win a SB but he is a stop gap to keep from blowing the entire season if Ben goes down for a game or two. You can't throw L. Jones or MM into the game to get them experience just because Ben is out a short period of time. That's what the Steelers do. They kept Batch, Leftwich, and even Maddox around as experienced backups.
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Yes he is. Winston ran a 4.97 and 4.99. Winston's hands were on the small side too. I now think MM has passed Winston on draft boards. This QB class if awful. We need these two to go before we pick in round one.
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Unless he has carney hands, I dont think Winston's hands are SO small that it should become an issue for teams. Winston will still be pick #1 IMO
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I still think Lovie is going to take Winston. None of these QB are that good IMHO. I've watched all of them throw and run. Not impressive at all.
More Devil's advocate-ism... The steelers thought they could get three or more more years out of Bradshaw when they passed on Marino. Bradshaw promptly blew his shoulder out than did so again... if you believe that a guy is a franchise QB, and I am not saying he will be, but if you think a real franchise QB is available, you take him every time... take a look at some of the tarde value guys who sat behind someone and wasn't going to start got when teams thought they were...
Schaub was a 3rd rounder and backup that looked like a star in the making in Atlanta... the Texans traded down from the 8th overall pick to the 10th and sent 2 2nd rounders to Atlanta for him
Favre was a 2nd rounder that barely even played in Atlanta and the Packers sent the 19th overall there for him.
Kolb was a 2nd rounder that Got a pro bowl CB that had been a 1st rounder and a 2nd'
Heck even Cutler who was a starter known to be an airhead got 2 1sts and a 3rd, QB's with starter potential are invaluable, and if you do get that franchise guy you deal ben early for a kings randsom ala Indy with luck or even philly when they cut ties with McNabb. Heck for the end of an old Joe Montana and a third the chiefs sent a 1st rounder to the 49rs
the point is you never know when a true franchise guy comes available, so when one is there that you think can be the next guy, you ALWAYS take him, because if you are right, even if you don't need him, someone else will want him bad... and frankly you can fill holes everywhere else with lower round picks with much greater success than at QB.
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So let me see if I'm grasping the line of thinking here correctly... The Steelers are in desparate need of pass rushers, corners, linebackers and offensive tackles. The one position we are by far the most solid at is QB. We have a franchise, potentially HOF caliber QB right now who, in my opinion, is playing better and smarter than he has in his whole career, and some of you think that is the position we should shore up with the FIRST PICK in what is an extremely important draft for us if we ever want to see this defense improve while we actually have one of the better offenses in the league for a change. This offense paired with just a decent defense, not necessarily a great one, really has a chance to have us in the mix the next few years, but some of you think we should spend our oh so important 1st round pick on a player that, if things go as planned, will never sniff the field for the foreseeable future. Wow....
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Yes, I think you have summed it up pretty accurately. To me it sounds like an Al Davis special.
so on the flip side of the coin, lets say hypothetically that a team was only short a CB from being a true super bowl contender, and every CB coming out that year was mediocre and most years would not crack the top 4 rounds, do you still take a QB in the first round or do you go BPA and fix that issue elsewhere through a free agent or trade... cause I think going straight for need should only come into play when you have multiple positions with equal value at a spot... if for say, we had a WR and a QB available with similar talent or maybe a little more than the best available DB at the pick, then absolutely we go DB, but if a clear cut top 5 talent falls to you late in the draft, you are stupid to pass on him or at least to trade out of the spot for someone who really needs him.
The NFL has too much injury and roster turnover to pass up true talent for lesser talent, and the importance of a Franchise QB is so great that you cant afford to pass on one when you get a crack at one. (and understand its likely our scouts don't think there is a bonafide true franchise QB in this draft. This is all hypothetical)
The NFL has too much injury and roster turnover to pass up true talent for lesser talent, and the importance of a Franchise QB is so great that you cant afford to pass on one when you get a crack at one. (and understand its likely our scouts don't think there is a bonafide true franchise QB in this draft. This is all hypothetical)
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Ok so this thread started with what if Mariotta falls to #22, nobody is talking about replacing Ben, What I am talking about and have been talking about is if MM is there at 22 I would take him. Do we have other needs hell yeah we sure the hell do but could we fill them needs also with the other picks and FA....heck yeah. Just for the record if we haven't screwed the other drafts up then this draft would be so "extremely important"!
You can't win in the NFL with a bad QB, are you good with going with Bruce or Landry for a good chunk of the season and maybe the playoffs? I am not, I would want a guy who could give us a chance to win and IMO MM has that ability. Now if he never see's the field fine I am sure he has value in the trade market if you would want to go that route.
With today being the Daytona 500 I will use that as an example, you bring several cars to the track with hopes you never need to use them but if you do the back up car is just as good as the primary one. I am not saying MM is anything like Ben **** they are very big shoes to fill but I like my chances better with MM then with these other two guys. QB is by far the hardest position to fill and most important so if a guy like MM falls I...ME am all about pulling the trigger and taking a chance at #22 in the draft for this guy........and yet again this is all for nothing not a snowballs chance in hell this guys falls that far.