Xavier Grimble released

[Vader]

When exactly have they been hit with injuries as hard as they have been hit this year? When Haden became available they pounced on him. Plus they have been pretty active with free agency of late too. My point is they have been pretty active with Ben under center why wouldn't they be just as active without him? Especially with a position like FS you lose your starter there it could open the flood gates in the passing game. Remember the last time they were aggressive at a position besides ILber trading up it was at FS for Polamalu. QB and FS are the positions teams need to be aggressive with. Especially when they get caught with their pants down. Which is what happened with Davis' injury.

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Haden was a FA. Why not? They didn't trade anything for him and he didn't have a contract. So it was a no brainer. But that isn't what we are talking about. FAs are easy because they don't cost draft picks or big money contracts you can't get out of.

We're talking about trades. They weren't active with trades with Ben under center. The team is on the cusp of a SB. Ryan Shazier goes down. What do they do? Do they trade for an ILB? Nope. After the season do they draft one high? Nope not right away. Now you're telling me that Sean Davis goes down and the season is going to be over if he isn't replaced ASAP? Sean Davis? Please. Isn't he like the 5th FS from the bottom in starting FS? But we can't win without an immediate upgrade?

McDonald gets hurt... he's always hurt. Never had a full season in the NFL.. never. Do they do anything after James leaves and Ben is under center? Nope not a thing. Do they "explore" other options? Yes, but they ultimately decide to go with what they have. They don't bring in a FA TE and they don't trade for one... WAIT Ben gets hurt and now they have to have a TE. Trade time.

2016 Cam is hurt and doesn't play the last 7 games. Trade for a DL? Nope. Not a chance. I could go on but there is no reason. Only this year do you see trades made after someone gets hurt. We both know the reason.

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

vader you make good points.


we all knew who you were going to blame..

but you made good points to back it up so,,, Rep.

 

[Litos]

I think the fact that they just dumped two guys that took a huge portion of their cap room for next season gives them a lot of breathing room to be aggressive FA players thinking on spreading the money in the future.

Maybe they don't care so much about the draft picks they are trading away when they are already securing guaranteed talent and still will have cap room to get another FA to fill roster needs.

Honestly there already is enough youth on the team, is not like the core is old and need as many picks as possible

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[Drink IRON City]

Haden was a FA. Why not? They didn't trade anything for him and he didn't have a contract. So it was a no brainer. But that isn't what we are talking about. FAs are easy because they don't cost draft picks or big money contracts you can't get out of.

We're talking about trades. They weren't active with trades with Ben under center. The team is on the cusp of a SB. Ryan Shazier goes down. What do they do? Do they trade for an ILB? Nope. After the season do they draft one high? Nope not right away. Now you're telling me that Sean Davis goes down and the season is going to be over if he isn't replaced ASAP? Sean Davis? Please. Isn't he like the 5th FS from the bottom in starting FS? But we can't win without an immediate upgrade?

McDonald gets hurt... he's always hurt. Never had a full season in the NFL.. never. Do they do anything after James leaves and Ben is under center? Nope not a thing. Do they "explore" other options? Yes, but they ultimately decide to go with what they have. They don't bring in a FA TE and they don't trade for one... WAIT Ben gets hurt and now they have to have a TE. Trade time.

2016 Cam is hurt and doesn't play the last 7 games. Trade for a DL? Nope. Not a chance. I could go on but there is no reason. Only this year do you see trades made after someone gets hurt. We both know the reason.

Vader, you definitely have some strong points on the "saving" coaching tomlin award. If this is truly about tomlin's job then ROONEY isn't nearly as football smart as he is "big business" smart.I am glad for the player acquisition but worried of the future gamble with the draft picks. My biggest concern though is if this doesn't work and they keep the "master minds" employed.




Salute the nation

 

[slashsteel]

Haden was a FA. Why not? They didn't trade anything for him and he didn't have a contract. So it was a no brainer. But that isn't what we are talking about. FAs are easy because they don't cost draft picks or big money contracts you can't get out of.

We're talking about trades. They weren't active with trades with Ben under center. The team is on the cusp of a SB. Ryan Shazier goes down. What do they do? Do they trade for an ILB? Nope. After the season do they draft one high? Nope not right away. Now you're telling me that Sean Davis goes down and the season is going to be over if he isn't replaced ASAP? Sean Davis? Please. Isn't he like the 5th FS from the bottom in starting FS? But we can't win without an immediate upgrade?

McDonald gets hurt... he's always hurt. Never had a full season in the NFL.. never. Do they do anything after James leaves and Ben is under center? Nope not a thing. Do they "explore" other options? Yes, but they ultimately decide to go with what they have. They don't bring in a FA TE and they don't trade for one... WAIT Ben gets hurt and now they have to have a TE. Trade time.

2016 Cam is hurt and doesn't play the last 7 games. Trade for a DL? Nope. Not a chance. I could go on but there is no reason. Only this year do you see trades made after someone gets hurt. We both know the reason.

Vader you tend to take hypothesis and try to make it into fact. We aren't separating free agents from the convo. Why? Because it all goes into the desire to win. They were more aggressive in the draft this year in how long? Was that contributed to an injured Ben? No. You can belittle Davis' value all you want but the fact remains there was nobody behind him with experience. They got a glimpse of what was behind him when Davis went down and it wasn't pretty. There is a difference in wanting to give yourself a fighting chance to win and keeping a streak alive. Fact is they have been agressive lately and the trades are simply an extension of that.

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[slashsteel]

vader you make good points.


we all knew who you were going to blame..

but you made good points to back it up so,,, Rep.

His points are if you are looking through binoculars. As the Steelers have been aggressive lately. Signing the biggest free agent contract in team history and then trading up to the top ten. Two aggressive moves that have to be factored into any theory. I mean how silly is it thinking a streak is involved in the scenario? Hi Kevin my streak is in jeopardy with Ben injured what can we do? Oh gee Mike I gotya we will just trade some draft picks away, problem solved! And Davis is a UFA next year so that factors in too. As the club always preaches looking to the future . Just like they did when Rudolph fell to them.

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[Vader]

Vader you tend to take hypothesis and try to make it into fact. We aren't separating free agents from the convo. Why? Because it all goes into the desire to win. They were more aggressive in the draft this year in how long? Was that contributed to an injured Ben? No. You can belittle Davis' value all you want but the fact remains there was nobody behind him with experience. They got a glimpse of what was behind him when Davis went down and it wasn't pretty. There is a difference in wanting to give yourself a fighting chance to win and keeping a streak alive. Fact is they have been agressive lately and the trades are simply an extension of that.

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And you tend to jump to conclusions about what they are doing and why. So how are my points less valid? You said FS is sooooo important. But that's your opinion not a fact. You also use vague terms like "Pretty aggressive"... not sure exactly what that means.. is that better than ugly aggressive? Then you went on to talk about of course they made trades because Davis got hurt... But I've showed you in the past other more important players have gotten hurt and they don't trade for anyone. So you just gloss over everything and go with "Well they wouldn't do that." Again as if that is a fact. So it looks like you are making up a bunch of facts as you go along while chiding me about it.

Let's look at some facts. The steelers always bring in FAs to shore up positions before the draft so they don't have to reach for a position. That's a fact. It happens every year. James Farrior, Ryan Clark, Moore, Jeff Hartings, Staley, Olehoffen, Hartwig, Mitchell, Maddox, Foote, Batch and tons more. They are always active in FA even if it isn't for the highest priced ones. So the signing of Barron and Moncrief this year is business as usual not something different. They were no more aggressive this year as in years before.

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

His points are if you are looking through binoculars. As the Steelers have been aggressive lately. Signing the biggest free agent contract in team history and then trading up to the top ten. Two aggressive moves that have to be factored into any theory. I mean how silly is it thinking a streak is involved in the scenario? Hi Kevin my streak is in jeopardy with Ben injured what can we do? Oh gee Mike I gotya we will just trade some draft picks away, problem solved! And Davis is a UFA next year so that factors in too. As the club always preaches looking to the future . Just like they did when Rudolph fell to them.

We signed Nelson because Burns **** the bed, and Tombert cant draft a d-back to save its life. The trade up in the draft is not unprecedented. (troy) And we really needed a good quick ILB. So yeah they can be factored into any theory as you said.

Tomlin and Colberts are in synch. They run together time wise, No?

They took Rudolph because he was graded as 1st round talent and fell to them. Plus Landry Jones blew goats, so it was a good draft pick up.

BUT. Ben went down and the defense looked like ****. Why didn't they shore up the Safety position better before the regular season. Maybe it was just due to the fact there wasn't any quality ones out there. Same with the TE position.

HOWEVER
The team has never done this stuff before. Not that I can think of a good example for (trading draft picks in season to pick up players) Its been the next man up philosophy for years under Tomlin. So why do It now that the season is pretty well ****** with the absence of Ben?

The two moves have definitely improved the Offense And the Defense.

Now fitzopatrick COULD be seen as a no brainer, due to his talent level, his present contract, davis becoming a free agent at year end, and Steeler draft abilities. The vannett trade is perplexing due to his Free Agency at years end. And the fact that he isnt exactly lighting the league on fire so far. Again , they FO could have shored up this position much earlier than now.

They still aren't out of the woods at TE with Vance's history, and nobody behind the two except Gentry and CSW who is a train wreck. I guess we need Ju Ju, Or one of the TE's to go down for a period to see how they address it?

Look I don't think the steelers have a prayer without ben. Not yet. , Honestly do you? So either the steelers are trying to salvage an 8-8 season, or they REALLY REALLY like Mason Rudolph to lead them deep into the post season.

 

[slashsteel]

And you tend to jump to conclusions about what they are doing and why. So how are my points less valid? You said FS is sooooo important. But that's your opinion not a fact. You also use vague terms like "Pretty aggressive"... not sure exactly what that means.. is that better than ugly aggressive? Then you went on to talk about of course they made trades because Davis got hurt... But I've showed you in the past other more important players have gotten hurt and they don't trade for anyone. So you just gloss over everything and go with "Well they wouldn't do that." Again as if that is a fact. So it looks like you are making up a bunch of facts as you go along while chiding me about it.

Let's look at some facts. The steelers always bring in FAs to shore up positions before the draft so they don't have to reach for a position. That's a fact. It happens every year. James Farrior, Ryan Clark, Moore, Jeff Hartings, Staley, Olehoffen, Hartwig, Mitchell, Maddox, Foote, Batch and tons more. They are always active in FA even if it isn't for the highest priced ones. So the signing of Barron and Moncrief this year is business as usual not something different. They were no more aggressive this year as in years before.

I am not jumping to any occlusions I am just not buying into some crazy streak theory. FS is important to the D as in the last line of defense not an opinion but fact. Again to shell out more money for a free agent than they normally do qualifies as aggressive. Trading into the top ten qualifies as aggressive. Do I think the adjective pretty in this case is fitting? I could have used overly and it would have fit just as well. Nothing vague in my assessment you simply disagree with it. As I disagree with yours. No biggie. Now back to the bottom line. The team is in business to win championships. And the ongoing goal is to stock the roster for now and the future. Which they have talked about repeatedly. Hell they could even see that SB window closing. We can see it so no stretch to think they can't. So in turn they are being aggressive. And trading picks for a player who can upgrade the D while looking at the now and next year fits that way of thinking. A streak theory... when something sounds silly it is because it is. No I strongly feel the team simply wants to win now while stocking for the future and they have to come up with ways to do it and take aggressive moves when key players go down. They also want to give Rudolph a message that they want to win and win now. Trading for players helps send that message to him and the team. It is the approach I desire as a fan. As far as the lack of trading away players in the past that was simply a less aggressive approach, thinking their depth could be adequate. Maybe even thinking having Ben they could overcome some injuries and still win it all. Well it doesn't take much to see the depth at the two positions this year wasn't adequate but the weakest positions on the roster. To boot they don't have Ben to carry them to the playoffs so again they know it might take a more aggressive approach to get there.


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[slashsteel]

We signed Nelson because Burns **** the bed, and Tombert cant draft a d-back to save its life. The trade up in the draft is not unprecedented. (troy) And we really needed a good quick ILB. So yeah they can be factored into any theory as you said.

Tomlin and Colberts are in synch. They run together time wise, No?

They took Rudolph because he was graded as 1st round talent and fell to them. Plus Landry Jones blew goats, so it was a good draft pick up.

BUT. Ben went down and the defense looked like ****. Why didn't they shore up the Safety position better before the regular season. Maybe it was just due to the fact there wasn't any quality ones out there. Same with the TE position.

HOWEVER
The team has never done this stuff before. Not that I can think of a good example for (trading draft picks in season to pick up players) Its been the next man up philosophy for years under Tomlin. So why do It now that the season is pretty well ****** with the absence of Ben?

The two moves have definitely improved the Offense And the Defense.

Now fitzopatrick COULD be seen as a no brainer, due to his talent level, his present contract, davis becoming a free agent at year end, and Steeler draft abilities. The vannett trade is perplexing due to his Free Agency at years end. And the fact that he isnt exactly lighting the league on fire so far. Again , they FO could have shored up this position much earlier than now.

They still aren't out of the woods at TE with Vance's history, and nobody behind the two except Gentry and CSW who is a train wreck. I guess we need Ju Ju, Or one of the TE's to go down for a period to see how they address it?

Look I don't think the steelers have a prayer without ben. Not yet. , Honestly do you? So either the steelers are trying to salvage an 8-8 season, or they REALLY REALLY like Mason Rudolph to lead them deep into the post season.

How long ago was the Troy trade up? And even that trade wasn't as costly. Not a common approach so that trade as well as the Bush trade qualifies as aggressive. Ben btw went to the SB what in his second year? No I don't think Rudolph is Big Ben but the approach doesn't change their mindset doesn't change not should it. We can think Tomlin is the wrong man to take us there and still that mindset shouldn't change. This is the first team to win 6SBs, nobody thought they were going to win it in the Bus' last hurrah. The team has accomplished things nobody thought they would. And I damn sure don't like the message it would send tanking or not giving Rudolph a fighting chance to accomplish something special.

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[Vader]

I am not jumping to any occlusions I am just not buying into some crazy streak theory. FS is important to the D as in the last line of defense not an opinion but fact. Again to shell out more money for a free agent than they normally do qualifies as aggressive. Trading into the top ten qualifies as aggressive. Do I think the adjective pretty in this case is fitting? I could have used overly and it would have fit just as well. Nothing vague in my assessment you simply disagree with it. As I disagree with yours. No biggie. Now back to the bottom line. The team is in business to win championships. And the ongoing goal is to stock the roster for now and the future. Which they have talked about repeatedly. Hell they could even see that SB window closing. We can see it so no stretch to think they can't. So in turn they are being aggressive. And trading picks for a player who can upgrade the D while looking at the now and next year fits that way of thinking. A streak theory... when something sounds silly it is because it is. No I strongly feel the team simply wants to win now while stocking for the future and they have to come up with ways to do it and take aggressive moves when key players go down. They also want to give Rudolph a message that they want to win and win now. Trading for players helps send that message to him and the team. It is the approach I desire as a fan. As far as the lack of trading away players in the past that was simply a less aggressive approach, thinking their depth could be adequate. Maybe even thinking having Ben they could overcome some injuries and still win it all. Well it doesn't take much to see the depth at the two positions this year wasn't adequate but the weakest positions on the roster. To boot they don't have Ben to carry them to the playoffs so again they know it might take a more aggressive approach to get there.


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Trading up when you have a lot of picks isn't as aggressive as you appear to think. They still had 9 draft picks after they finished all the trading. 2 of those in round 3. When they drafted Troy they only had 5 picks. It comes down to how the team sees that particular draft. Is it a strong draft and at what positions?

Again, please name me the year that the Steelers traded draft picks for players during the year. Just once it should have happened right? So what year? I've listed injuries that were much more important than Davis and they did nothing. Next man up was the moto. But not this year. So what changed? You can say that they are still trying to win a SB with Rudolph but you and I both know they aren't that stupid. They aren't winning a SB this year. So what is the only logical conclusion? They are trying to salvage the season for other reasons. It may not be to be .500 this year. But it's to make sure they aren't horrible this year. They are obviously trying to win as many games as they can and willing to pay a price for it.

 

[slashsteel]

What changed is a combination of everything I mentioned. No experience at FS and TE at the depth positions in Gentry and Kelly. What changed is the HC and Colbert knowing Ben's time is limited as well as theirs. Regardless if we think they can win a SB shouldn't limit their desire to win one without Big Ben. Other teams have won one with backups under center. We seem to have a common ground in that they want to win now, my reasons just differ than yours. A good debate which it usually is when we back n forth....

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[Vader]

What changed is a combination of everything I mentioned. No experience at FS and TE at the depth positions in Gentry and Kelly. What changed is the HC and Colbert knowing Ben's time is limited as well as theirs. Regardless if we think they can win a SB shouldn't limit their desire to win one without Big Ben. Other teams have won one with backups under center. We seem to have a common ground in that they want to win now, my reasons just differ than yours. A good debate which it usually is when we back n forth....

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Very good debate. I just don't see championship ring when I watch this team.