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Tj Watt or Buddha Baker?

Watt easily. With Harrison being ancient by NFL standards a good replacement is needed.

Baker is a small safety type with coverage ability. He also has others wondering if his body will hold up due to his playing style and smaller frame. So he played the slot in college. Didn't 100+ other DB do the same? Davis played the slot too, but could not hack it there in the NFL.

Having said that I'd take Baker is he was there for us in round three. TMC said he's worthy of a first round pick. We shall see if any of the 32 teams agree with him. As they say, it only takes 1!
 
Tibs said:
I don't know the answer to that, but I am a little worried how Budda's gonna hold up playing with the big boys. I get it that he can fly around and cover slot receivers et al, but not seeing him matching up with TE's and RB's. For what the Steelers seem to be looking for, I'd rather have Jabrill Peppers or someone like Melinfowu/Josh Jones et al. Maybe the Steelers view him differently and I'll trust their judgement on Budda.
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Is it really TEs that are hurting the steelers or is it these small quick slot WRs? Peppers is more of a LB. Josh Jones looks like Mike Mitchell. Melifonwu is great on paper but he does not look instinctive or natural to me.

Artie Burns and Sean Davis are longer players who should be able to deal with TEs and big WRs. What i want is a quick twitch athlete who can actually stick to a quick WR. That's Budda.
 
Drink IRON City said:
How many college concussions has Budda had? Just curious is all.




Salute the nation
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He was in the concusion protocol once in 2015. To put his size in perspective, the difference between Budda Baker and Karl Joseph is roughly 10 pounds. Karl Joseph was 5095, 205 with 32 1/8" arms and 9 3/4" hands. Budda Baker is 5095, 195 with 30 3/4" arms and 9" hands. Tyrann Mathieu is the same height, 9 pounds lighter than Baker, and has almost the same size arms and hands. Same frame, only less weight. The Cardinals just paid him $12 million a year. He is their starting FS now, same position as Baker.

And, with all the talk about nickel corners and $backers, they have Mathieu (started as a nickel/slot) and Deonne Bucannon as an RILB ($backer), isn't their scheme what it appears we are mimicing? Three DL (Nkemdiche, Peters, Gunter), 4 LBs (Jones, Dansby, Bucannon$, and Golden), four DBs (Peterson, Bethea, Mathieu, Williams).

Baker is the slot with an eye on him taking Mitchell's spot in the future to play beside Davis.
 
tapeANaspirin2it said:
Is it really TEs that are hurting the steelers or is it these small quick slot WRs? Peppers is more of a LB. Josh Jones looks like Mike Mitchell. Melifonwu is great on paper but he does not look instinctive or natural to me.

Artie Burns and Sean Davis are longer players who should be able to deal with TEs and big WRs. What i want is a quick twitch athlete who can actually stick to a quick WR. That's Budda.
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It is both. They have to have guys that can match up with either. You need a taller $backer and a smaller slot.
 
Buddha Baker sounds like the chef of a neo-hippie colony
 
take Watt 1
2 CB Tankersley
3 OLB Smoot
3B RBConner
4 DT/DE Jones/Tomlinson
5 QB Kaaya
 
TMC said:
But, if the run on edge rushers isn't that strong, say having Takk, Tyus, and Lawson on the board as well, I might be inclined to take Baker. Just depends on the feel of the draft.
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That would be ... bold. My concern is that if the Steelers take Baker - a damn fine player, no doubt, and an upgrade over Mitchell - then the pass rushers are gone, gone, gone by pick 62. Meanwhile, a solid CB is likely to be there at 62, so if the Steelers take McKinley, then the CB, they are rocking.
 
Steeltime said:
That would be ... bold. My concern is that if the Steelers take Baker - a damn fine player, no doubt, and an upgrade over Mitchell - then the pass rushers are gone, gone, gone by pick 62. Meanwhile, a solid CB is likely to be there at 62, so if the Steelers take McKinley, then the CB, they are rocking.
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Unless we have overvalued the edge rushers position. That is why you have to build your board and trust it. Look, and I'm not stating this as fact, but say you rate your players on a scale from 1 to 100. Say your edge rushers, like McKinley, Watt, Bowser, and Lawson have scores like this: McKinley (91), Watt (90), Bowser (89), Lawson (88)....and say you have Baker rated a (94). Then, your next group of DBs, let's say that your corner is Rasul Douglas (88) but your next group of edge rushers, your highest rated guy is Derek Rivers (87). And, in the first, you draft McKinley and the DB, you just added a 91-edge and a 88 DB. But, if you went DB, you would have added a 94 and 87. Which draft has put you in a better position over the long-term?

And, if there hasn't been a run on edges by your pick at #30 (because they are still there), and you can draft a DB with such a higher score, odds are that the DBs will carry better value through the next 20 or so picks (unless there is a drop off, and in this draft, there isn't). So, it is more likely that smart drafting teams will stay in the talent pool, which would be DB, and you could potentially have one of those top OLBs slide because teams want the higher ranked DBs.

You just have to stay true to your board and take talent and not get caught up in the, we have to draft a position X. That is how you end up over drafting inferior talent.
 
Let me also state this, and you want bold, but here is bold...I'm not afraid to leave this draft without taking an edge rusher. Chickillo is entering year 3, this should be the year we see what he is capable of doing. He has cut weight, he should have adjust to that weight, he should be acclimated to the pro game, and he was coming on late last season before Deebo and Dupree went flat out crazy and took all the snaps. So, if I drafted Baker in the first and corner was vastly better than OLB in the 2nd, I'd draft a corner. If CB/S were better in the 3rd, I'd continue to add the talent, because we have a dearth of talent at the DB spot. Then, when I faced the Pats and they spread me out, I could rush Harrison and Dupree because I have enough DBs to get in the face of the WRs and enough talent on the back end to protect those guys.

We just need to draft the most talented football players and if they align with the potential "needs", then great. If not, we just make those units stronger and we scrap the barrel of FAs to back fill the roster.
 
This part is very true. The team has a much better sense of their own needs then the fan does. They've seen Chickillo in practice every day. At this point he might be more game ready then any edge rusher they could draft at 30. I also agree with two fairly glaring needs you have to take best value.
 
TMC said:
If Budda Baker were 6', all other things being equal, he would be in the running for the top safety selected in this draft. He is that dynamic. He has been asked to play the slot quite a bit and excels at it. Not only in coverage, but his ability to tackle screens and check downs is as good as it gets. He sees the read, is breaking before the football is out of the hand of the QB, and often cuts the runners down for no gain or a loss. But, he also can play deep, as a single, in Cover-2, Cover-3, various packages, understands the defensive scheme well enough to align players, and just does it seamlessly. Then, in some instances, he has lined up as an edge corner and ran with receivers down the field. He plays in the box. He plays deep. He plays over the slot. He plays outside (some think he could play corner full time, and I don't disagree). Student of the game. No off the field issues. No injury history. So, other than being just shy of 5'10", there are no real flags.

But, you could view Watt in a similar light. He has the length you want. His weight is up over 250, so his size is right in the range you want. Long arms, big hands. Great frame. Good athlete, not a complete freak, but he has an excellent vertical, great COD, good lower body explosion, he can bend, uses his hands well, takes to coaching, hard worker. He is excellent in coverage. He is a solid pass rusher that is still developing. He plays the run the right way, he just doesn't always have that raw power needed to hold his ground and peel off the blocks. So, outside of his strength and injury history, not many red flags. The thing is, he can play as an off-the-line linebacker because he runs well enough and can cover, or once he gets his strength better, he can be an OLB. He could play ILB. I would think he could play DE if needed (in a 4-3), so he has scheme versatility too, a lot of things you can do with a guy like Watt.

I don't think you can go wrong with either.
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I think what many are forgetting is the Baker can play the slot while waiting a year to take over for Mitchell.
While Mitchell is a fiercer hitter, he doesn't hold a candle to Baker's range and athleticism. Baker would supplant Mitchell by this team next year.
Imagine a tandem of Sean Davis and Budda Baker back there?
 
If baker was taken at 1.30, I think we could see this following:

1. Baker FS/Slot
2. Rivers OLB
3. Douglas CB
3b. Butt TE
4. Reynolds WR
 
Assuming no trades,
1) Watt.
2) Baker.

I think Watt has more potential and has rare athletic talent. Baker is more of a finished product that will contribute earlier and should be a solid NFL player. However, if it was not for the knee injury a couple of years ago we would have no shot at Watt because I think he would have been a top 10-15 talent.
 
fogdoctor said:
However, if it was not for the knee injury a couple of years ago we would have no shot at Watt because I think he would have been a top 10-15 talent.
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Without the knee injuries, he might still be a tight end. He was coming off two lost seasons due to the knee injury and Wisconsin was pretty desperate to replace Joe Schobert, so they asked him to make the switch. He wasn't so sure about it because he had always played TE. He contacted JJ and JJ helped convince him to make the move. His LB coach said they had to start from ground zero, teach him everything thing like he was an incoming freshman, how to stand, how to load weight, where his hands went, pad level, the whole range of skills. If he had come out of high school as a defensive player, maybe, but he was a TE like JJ Watt was. Oddly enough, the middle brother was a LB that switched to FB. So, if your name is Watt and you go to Wisconsin, if you play offense, they move you to defense and if you play defense, they move you to offense.
 
Saw an ESPN mock, think Mayock who has Watt going in round 2. Almost time to ditch the mocks and do the real thing. Hope the FO hits another home run this year.
 
F83 said:
take Watt 1
2 CB Tankersley
3 OLB Smoot
3B RBConner
4 DT/DE Jones/Tomlinson
5 QB Kaaya
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I like the first three picks!

No way on Kaaya. He lacks an arm and is not accurate. A back up type at best.
 
TMC said:
Unless we have overvalued the edge rushers position. That is why you have to build your board and trust it. Look, and I'm not stating this as fact, but say you rate your players on a scale from 1 to 100. Say your edge rushers, like McKinley, Watt, Bowser, and Lawson have scores like this: McKinley (91), Watt (90), Bowser (89), Lawson (88)....and say you have Baker rated a (94). Then, your next group of DBs, let's say that your corner is Rasul Douglas (88) but your next group of edge rushers, your highest rated guy is Derek Rivers (87). And, in the first, you draft McKinley and the DB, you just added a 91-edge and a 88 DB. But, if you went DB, you would have added a 94 and 87. Which draft has put you in a better position over the long-term?
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I hear 'ya. And I fully agree that drafting based on perceived need leads to picks like Tim Couch, Troy Edwards, etc.

But if the first round leaves 3 very good pass rushers on the board at pick 30, I think there is almost no chance any of those guys makes it to pick 62. The Cowboys are looking for a pass rusher, the Patsies are looking for a pass rusher, the Colts are looking for a pass rusher. The Cowboys and Colts may certainly pass on a good edge rusher in round 1 to get somebody else, but if they do so, they are not going to pass on the edge rushers twice.

Improving pass coverage is a must. I agree. But one of the easiest ways to improve pass coverage is to get a legit edge rusher to pair with Dupree, add that tandem to Heyward, Tuitt, Hargrave, and boom! QB is being helped up.
 
TMC said:
Let me also state this, and you want bold, but here is bold...I'm not afraid to leave this draft without taking an edge rusher. Chickillo is entering year 3, this should be the year we see what he is capable of doing. He has cut weight, he should have adjust to that weight, he should be acclimated to the pro game, and he was coming on late last season before Deebo and Dupree went flat out crazy and took all the snaps. So, if I drafted Baker in the first and corner was vastly better than OLB in the 2nd, I'd draft a corner. If CB/S were better in the 3rd, I'd continue to add the talent, because we have a dearth of talent at the DB spot. Then, when I faced the Pats and they spread me out, I could rush Harrison and Dupree because I have enough DBs to get in the face of the WRs and enough talent on the back end to protect those guys.

We just need to draft the most talented football players and if they align with the potential "needs", then great. If not, we just make those units stronger and we scrap the barrel of FAs to back fill the roster.
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I agree with the thought but feel this draft is deep at both positions making it more likely they'll go one of each.

But if we go DB in 1, say Conley, and they feel there's a significant difference between DB and LB prospects in round 2, I'm cool with doubling down.
 
While I agree that better pass rushers help coverage, with certain precision schemes that get the ball out quickly, the pass rush often does not get there in time. I don't care who the pass rusher is, if the DB cannot walk up on the WR, they can pitch and catch all day long.

I did a count on NFL.com of the teams that need DEs (4-3), OLBs (3-4) or just edge rushers, I think it was 14 teams. The key is, how many will take them in the first 60 picks. I know the Pats won't, they don't have a pick.
 
Steeltime said:
I hear 'ya. And I fully agree that drafting based on perceived need leads to picks like Tim Couch, Troy Edwards, etc.

But if the first round leaves 3 very good pass rushers on the board at pick 30, I think there is almost no chance any of those guys makes it to pick 62. The Cowboys are looking for a pass rusher, the Patsies are looking for a pass rusher, the Colts are looking for a pass rusher. The Cowboys and Colts may certainly pass on a good edge rusher in round 1 to get somebody else, but if they do so, they are not going to pass on the edge rushers twice.

Improving pass coverage is a must. I agree. But one of the easiest ways to improve pass coverage is to get a legit edge rusher to pair with Dupree, add that tandem to Heyward, Tuitt, Hargrave, and boom! QB is being helped up.
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I prefer pass rush. Average cover is good with huge pass rush. Plus you can game things.
 
TMC said:
Without the knee injuries, he might still be a tight end. He was coming off two lost seasons due to the knee injury and Wisconsin was pretty desperate to replace Joe Schobert, so they asked him to make the switch. He wasn't so sure about it because he had always played TE. He contacted JJ and JJ helped convince him to make the move. His LB coach said they had to start from ground zero, teach him everything thing like he was an incoming freshman, how to stand, how to load weight, where his hands went, pad level, the whole range of skills. If he had come out of high school as a defensive player, maybe, but he was a TE like JJ Watt was. Oddly enough, the middle brother was a LB that switched to FB. So, if your name is Watt and you go to Wisconsin, if you play offense, they move you to defense and if you play defense, they move you to offense.
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I knew he would put up decent number at the combine but they are borderline freakish. Not Myles Garrett, obviously, but he did everything well. I would take the risk that more of that athletic ability get on the field as he learns the position. The only thing I'm not sure about is the 4-3 vs the 3-4. I think he may be better in the 4-3 but that way he picked up the rush LB position in 2 years suggests that it really does not matter.
 
fogdoctor said:
I knew he would put up decent number at the combine but they are borderline freakish. Not Myles Garrett, obviously, but he did everything well. I would take the risk that more of that athletic ability get on the field as he learns the position. The only thing I'm not sure about is the 4-3 vs the 3-4. I think he may be better in the 4-3 but that way he picked up the rush LB position in 2 years suggests that it really does not matter.
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Some of his combine numbers are very good, others are just average. He ran a 4.69 forty. Jarvis Jones ran a 4.84 and was considered too slow. That is 0.15 less. To put that in perspective, Dupree beat Watt's forty by 0.15. Jordan Willis beat it by 0.16. His vertical jump is up there. His broad jump is solid as well. His change of direction numbers are elite. In essence, his lower body explosion numbers are really good. His strength, meh. He had 21 reps on the bench. Longer arms, so discount that, but still, that isn't elite. Overall, good enough. Lawson, pretty freaky numbers. Bench was 35, shuttle was 4.39. Vertical was 33 with just shy of a 10' broad jump, so his KEI was 78. Watt's KEI was 69. Derek Rivers, how is big like Watt, similar arm length, ran a 4.61 forty, his short shuttle was less at 4.40, but his bench was 30, VJ was 35", and his BJ was over 10'. That is a KEI of 76. If you look at Watt's numbers as a whole, very similar to Tyus Bowser.

Really tough group to find a guy for me to latch onto...they all have strengths and weaknesses. It really depends on what they want them to do on defense. If they want straight ahead edge setters and pass rushers, like the OLBs of old, Lawson/McKinley might be the guy. If they value coverage a little more, versatility, Watt/Rivers/Bowser is the guy.
 
Thing about Watt is that you know you are getting a football player who will give his best to improve. You also know that he will be coachable. If his numbers are in the Rhelm I always take THAT guy. His issue is health. I'd really have to feel good about that.
 
I don't think you can go wrong with either player. I'm not going to overthink anything about Watt. He checks off every box and is going to be a defensive leader for years to come. Budda Baker can develop into a perennial Pro Bowl safety. Either player would make our defense better.
 
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