I believe we had a comparison going a year or so back - at the time - Timmons on the field stats were nearly identical to Patrick Willis...yeah, he's a bum too...
Spence over Shazier
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I believe we had a comparison going a year or so back - at the time - Timmons on the field stats were nearly identical to Patrick Willis...yeah, he's a bum too...
I think he can't handle the bumps and bruises. And NFL bumps and bruises aren't normal ones. He is good when he is 100%, but is almost never there.
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Do people think he sucks or do they believe that he isn't as good as some claim?
its his 2nd year still, and he both yr 1 and 2 has been in and out due to injury, a better SS is needed to team up with shazier, he at times does well 1-1 and at times just is A STEP LATE I.E THE RAIDERS GM TD.
He is just so versatile that like a young timmons before they ultra beefed him up he can line up anywhere rolb lolb mlb and a threat blitz vs the pass and run.
««««hopefully we see more big dan at nt and mclendon rotating between dt and de in the 4-3.
He is just so versatile that like a young timmons before they ultra beefed him up he can line up anywhere rolb lolb mlb and a threat blitz vs the pass and run.
««««hopefully we see more big dan at nt and mclendon rotating between dt and de in the 4-3.
I'd also take Spence as a hybrid SS/LB. I would love to see Spence and Shazier on the field at the same time.
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The opinion of anyone who thinks Timmons sucks probably isn't worth much.
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Some here, will never give Timmons any credit at all. They will consistently find ways to downplay any contributions he makes. He made several key tackles that kept the Browns from getting first downs, and all you'll hear is how he tackled them too far down field. He has also made some pretty good plays on TE's as much as he's been burned, he may not be able to stay with most stride for stride (most LBers can't), but when they run short underneath routes, or routes in the flat, Timmons has made great plays on the ball. Even had that crazy Polamalu-esque interception. Another solid year from him, filling up the stat sheets in more than just tackles.
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I don't think Timmons and Shazier mix well together, especially since they changed the DL to do more 1 gap. WIth the 2 gap scheme, it kept the ILBs clean to roam and make plays but in the 1 gap scheme, the ILBs have to take on more blocks. I think they need more of a thumper to play with Shazier.
Shazier is a great athlete. He needs to be in coverage or running free. When he has to take on blockers, he gets blocked, and injured.
Shazier is a great athlete. He needs to be in coverage or running free. When he has to take on blockers, he gets blocked, and injured.
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Worth is the issue. Timmons doesn't suck but he's not great either and he's been paid like a pro bowler since day 1.
People always hated on Larry Foote because he wasn't a pro bowler but he wasn't paid like one either. Foote was a better investment than Timmons overall.
James Farrior was in impact player. Timmons is just a guy who is pretty good at times.
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Worth is also an opinion, such as your opinion that he's just a guy who is pretty good at times. A lot of what Timmons does goes unnoticed or unappreciated, we see the long passes to the TE where he just can't keep up, but forget about the knocked down passes on third and short.
Last nights game changed the top of the tackle ranks, but before the game Timmons was tied for 11th with two others, now he's tied for 12th with one other. In that group, no one has more sacks than Timmons, and the only ones to have more INT's are the ones without any sacks. He also has the most passes defensed at 7, and there are two safeties above him in tackles. Timmons does a little bit of everything, and he does it quietly with little fanfare. I say he has more than earned his contract, he never misses a game, always busts his *** (even when he's throwing up on the field), and he's always filling up the stat sheet in more than one category.
You bring up James Farrior, and if you compare the two, the numbers are very interesting. Farrior played for 15 seasons, he finished his career with 11 INTs, Timmons has 10 in 9 years. He finished with 35.5 sacks, Timmons has 30.5. And as for tackles, which are not the most accurately kept stat, Timmons is averaging 10 more tackles per season. Seems to me he's making more of an impact than people realize. But it's like it was already posted, he could have 15 sacks, 180 tackles 9 INTs in a season, and people would find the one play he didn't make.
Last nights game changed the top of the tackle ranks, but before the game Timmons was tied for 11th with two others, now he's tied for 12th with one other. In that group, no one has more sacks than Timmons, and the only ones to have more INT's are the ones without any sacks. He also has the most passes defensed at 7, and there are two safeties above him in tackles. Timmons does a little bit of everything, and he does it quietly with little fanfare. I say he has more than earned his contract, he never misses a game, always busts his *** (even when he's throwing up on the field), and he's always filling up the stat sheet in more than one category.
You bring up James Farrior, and if you compare the two, the numbers are very interesting. Farrior played for 15 seasons, he finished his career with 11 INTs, Timmons has 10 in 9 years. He finished with 35.5 sacks, Timmons has 30.5. And as for tackles, which are not the most accurately kept stat, Timmons is averaging 10 more tackles per season. Seems to me he's making more of an impact than people realize. But it's like it was already posted, he could have 15 sacks, 180 tackles 9 INTs in a season, and people would find the one play he didn't make.
Crazy talk...
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And I quote, from a previous Timmons thread years back-
"I don't care what he does at ILB, he was drafted to play OLB, so he is a bust."
I **** you not, direct ******* quote.
This is why people get so ******* annoyed with the prognosticators who declare someone to suck within mins of the pick, because years later it leads to stupid **** like that.
Joe
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Agree 100%. You might also remember Vrable who was drafted like #3 by us as an OLB, let go after a few years, went to NE and moved inside and became a pro bowler or even Farrior who was a 4-3 olb in NY, came here as a FA and moved inside. Timmons also was Tomlins first pick and a lot of the hate came from that.
Vrabel was drafted by us as a 3-4 DE (that's what he played in college and his first couple seasons for us). He was too light (~270) and told to bulk up to get closer to 300. Then after Greg Lloyd left, Vrable was told to drop weight and play OLB at ~250 --- we were told he was going to be the heir apparent to Lloyd. We never seemed to make up our mind as to what to do with him. In New England he played mostly OLB, but they used a hybrid scheme which could be a base 3-4 one week and then 4-3 the next.
It's a good thing Villanueva still doesn't play DL...
Shazier gets caught in the mosh a lot....Spence is usually at least in the correct spot when he gets run over.
Shazier maybe the better pash rusher, Spence plays the pass as well as anyone playing LB on the team.
at least there's depth.
Shazier maybe the better pash rusher, Spence plays the pass as well as anyone playing LB on the team.
at least there's depth.
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Farrior was ineffective with the Jets for the first 5 years of his career. The Jets wasted his most athletic years. Then with the Steelers, he was dominant for about 5 years and then he started to tail off. Farrior was a player of the year candidate for a few years. Big plays at big moments
Timmons is more of a compiler. He's a good tackler but the tackles are often downfield.
I'm talking about impact plays, not stats. Timmons is paid like an impact player. Do you honestly think he belongs in the category with guys like Bowman and Keuchley?
If you want to go by stats then Matt Stafford is better than Ben. Kerry Collins has as many yards passing as Joe Montana. Are they interchangeable or does context matter when talking about stats?
You get in cap trouble by overpaying. Ben is an impact player so his salary doesn't matter. He makes the team and those around him better. Just look at the difference in Antonio when Ben plays vs backups. That's impact.
Right now, Timmons salary isn't so bad, but over his career he has been overpaid. Timmons doesn't make anybody around him better. Those are the guys who get you in trouble when you give them big money.
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Shazier has really had one good game, I was hoping he could cover with his so called speed, the TE in the middle but has not happened.
The speed is legitimate. The question is, why does the coaching staff have Timmons covering the TEs instead of Shazier? He's shown the ability to handle the assignment in the past, so why stick with what's not working?
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We have people comparing Timmons to Farrior here? Really?
Farrior was an MVP-caliber player in the 2004 and 2005 seasons. Timmons has never been in such conversations.
Farrior was also among the greatest leaders the Steelers have ever had.
I've grown to like Timmons, but come on now.
Farrior was an MVP-caliber player in the 2004 and 2005 seasons. Timmons has never been in such conversations.
Farrior was also among the greatest leaders the Steelers have ever had.
I've grown to like Timmons, but come on now.
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With the exception of the 49ers game, where Shazier was excellent, he and Spence have pretty much been interchangeable,
They seem to be similar type players, with Shazier being faster and Spence being smarter and tougher.
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Funny, Farriors best year was actually his last in NY as far as tackles go. I stated in my post that people ignore the impact plays that Timmons makes and only concentrate on the plays he doesn't make. Farrior was burned A LOT by RB's that he never could cover, even in his prime. But he wasn't drafted in the first round, by a coach that most don't like, for a position that he was moved from.
Timmons does make impact plays, and some of his tackles might be "downfield" but he is usually coming from the other side of the formation to make that tackle, and usually it's still enough to keep them from getting a first down.
I'm not trying to minimize Farriors impact on one of the best defensive units we've had since the 70's, I'm merely pointing out that Timmons is making every bit the impact, just on a defensive unit that isn't quite so dominant. Yes I do think he deserves to be in the Bowman, Keuchley category as I don't see either of those two carrying their defenses. In fact SF defense is pretty bad at the moment, and Keuchley has missed several games this year due to a concussion, yet the Panthers are still undefeated.
The problem is, this is the Steelers, and every player on our team gets held to a higher standard than most. Each player MUST be a perennial All Pro, and future HOFer or else...but other players around the league, they just need to put up stats.
As for context argument, are you seriously trying to compare a 3-4 ILB to a QB as far as impact? Timmons doesn't make anyone around him better? Well, we honestly don't know that answer because Timmons hasn't missed a game since becoming a starter. We don't know what this defense would be like without him on the field. Timmons has earned every penny of his contract, he's had every bit the impact that Bowman or Keuchley have for their defenses. Remember when everyone was all over Patrick Willis jock, then Bownman went down and Willis became pretty pedestrian. Timmons hasn't had a player like that next to him SINCE Farrior was here. Foote was brought back and got hurt immediately, and since they've been playing a Spence/Shazier/Williams combo next to Timmons since...all three lack experience.
But by all means, keep thinking that Timmons is just a guy, we'll find out sooner or later how much he's actually meant to this defense.
Farrior was never a DPOY candidate anywhere outside the Steelers fanbase, he had solid years for us, and I'm certainly glad we had him. Was huge for us, but lets not get carried away. Farrior was a solid leader for us, and that somehow makes it impossible to compare Timmons to him as far as their impact on the field?
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I don't know about this year, but last year Timmons had to switch from Buck to Mack in games rather than stick with one position.
As for coverage of RBs or TEs, maybe Timmons is asked to do it more due to experience. With more experience, it may shift more to Shazier.
Timmons isn't a in the backfield type of player.... but you need those players who can get to the ball and tackle.... And he is that. The run D is solid and he leads the team tackles.
I think that =s a solid player, as he isn't a part of the problem if we are breaking down deficiencies............
I think that =s a solid player, as he isn't a part of the problem if we are breaking down deficiencies............
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Shazier has much more talent. Spence is a below average starter. I think Shazier has been playing rather guarded since his injury.