Speaking of inheriting good players...

[diver]

But Tomlin did make changes. He kept drafting defensive players who fit the Tampa 2 and not the 3-4 and worst of all, he let the OL go to ****. This was because he couldn't stand up to Arians who actually said you didn't need a good OL if you have good enough skill players.

The Tomlin Arians combo wasted some of Ben's prime years by allowing him to regress to a guy running around looking for the big play every play. Tomlin never identified that problem. It was the Rooneys who had to step in and fire Arians because they saw Ben getting worse and taking too many hits while Arians encouraged that style of play.

Funny how Arians became a head coach and all of a sudden he puts a big investment into the OL. I guess it's different when you are head coach and responsible for wins instead of an OC who gets labeled a genius for good passing stats.

Look at the shambles the OL has been until Mike Munchak dropped out of the sky and fixed it. This OL would probably still be **** if Munchak didn't coach them up.

I don't know Tape, if there is anything we have learned in recent years it is that there really 3-4 or 4-3 like we used to know it. You have these multiple fronts and all that. And the OL was starting to fall apart in 2006. Hartings was on his last legs, and when Faneca didn't get his way, he was gone the next year. They did win a SB in '08 and go to another with these lines. The Cowboys have had great lines supposedly, and haven't done ****.

I hate the wasted Ben's years stuff. If there has been waste, Ben was a big part of that. Arians didn't take the TE out of the offense, for example, and there were times you would have thought Heath Miller had the plague or something. I may still not be over the SB against the Packers when Ben threw a pick over the middle trying to force it to Wallace when Miller was so wide open he may be running still. He didn't take the backs out, either. Throwing to them more would have kept Ben upright.

Tomlin should get some credit for hiring Munchak, no? Noll had Bud Carson, George Perles and Tom Moore among others. Cowher had Ron Erhardt, Dom Capers and Dick LeBeau among others. Good assistants make good head coaches.

 

[Stryker]

Well, if we being completely fair, Tomlin deserves credit for hiring Munchak. That has arguable been Tomlin's greatest addition to the team over the last 5 seasons.

I don't know, I'd say retaining Lebeau and hiring Arians from within turned out to be pretty good coaching moves for a rookie HC. Then hiring Haley was nothing short of brilliant as our O is now consistently top 5. I understand your positions of not putting an A grade on Tomlin, but with Wins and Losses as a factor, he's an A coach in my book. No losing season, 3 of his first 5 seasons were 12 wins.

Moving on to the rest of the tread:

Like I said in a previous thread. No Steeler player in 2008 considered themselves a Cowher player. Tomlin kicked their ***** in 07 and won a SB in 08. They are all Tomlin guys, and Tomlin got the best out of that team in 08 to take home our 6th Lombardi.

The players respect Tomlin, why can't the fans?

 

[antdrewjosh]

Did Rooney ever say point blank draft Ben as an order? Link please? I think you're twisting some unknown facts. The pick was a collaborate effort, and if Cowher was not on board with Ben, Ben would NOT have been the pick.

Here you go Coach

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/6043/big-ben-pick-returned-steelers-to-glory

 

[deljzc]

Here you go Coach

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-steelers/post/_/id/6043/big-ben-pick-returned-steelers-to-glory

Many of us have read that excerpt from Rooney's book. As far as I can tell, that's the only written account of the war room.

Obviously Rooney was being somewhat "politically correct" with the way he describes "coming to a consensus". I don't think the Rooney's have ever undermined the draft process of the coach/GM to a great degree in their history. And we are talking about a very established head coach here. Cowher was in his 12th season?

My opinion (and really that's all we can construe) is this:

1. From my understanding Rivers was the #1 guy on their board that year. Cowher loved him. Loved he was from North Carolina. Loved his fire. The whole kitten caboodle. This is important because it establishes that Cowher was not anti-quarterback. They were strongly looking at all the QB's that off-season (Manning, Rivers and Roethlisberger). The fact Dan Rooney knew so much about Roethlisberger proves QB talk was very prevalent in the building throughout the draft process.

2. Based on the pictures we have of the Steelers war room, I would venture the QB list (all first rounders) looked like Rivers - Manning - Roethlisberger. The offensive line list only had Robert Gallery and Shawn Andrews. When you look at that draft and try and piece meal together the Steelers board, it's evident this was NOT a good offensive line draft. Only THREE were taken in the entire first round and only FOUR in the entire second round (think about that for a second). There were as many running backs taken in the first two rounds as offensive linemen (how times have changed). So I would suspect there was significant talk that if you didn't get one of the few talent offensive line players, there wasn't much else.

3. Side note. Funny how Rooney implies there was actually DISCUSSION about the pick while we were on the clock. Isn't that counter to the growing consensus here that think our "running to the podium" couldn't possible impact our decisions at all???

4. So the conversation (WHILE ON THE CLOCK) was between Roethlisberger and Andrews. Roethlisberger, the small-school, last 1st round rated QB prospect with a lot of question marks vs. Shawn Andrews, an almost universally agreed "best guard in class" from a huge proven program.

5. I think Cowher was leaning Andrews. I think Colbert was being the sniveling yes-man he always has been (I believe he NEVER disagreed with Cowher on anything) and completely out of the picture. And any conversation/discussion was between Cowher and Rooney only. They were the BMOC in that room. Not Colbert. Not Whisenhunt (new O.C.). Not the scouts.

6. This discussion still involved TWO people. Rooney and Cowher and was never an ultimatum or command. It was a discussion with Rooney being the boss and Cowher being the employee (albeit with considerable power). In any conversation like that you "feel out your boss" and when it's close in your mind, you end up going your Boss' way. That's how it always is. If Cowher had really hated Roethlisberger, or thought Andrews was a vastly superior prospect, he would have pushed back. He didn't. Cowher ended up agreeing.

In summary, I think throughout all of Cowher/Colbert tenure the draft was 75% Cowher and 25% Colbert with that percentage leaning more-so towards Cowher in the early rounds (the money rounds 1-4) and more-so towards Colbert in the late rounds (5-7).

In the case of Roethlisberger I would put the percentage: Rooney 60%, Cowher 30% and Colbert 10% as to who deserves credit for the selection.

It WAS a consensus and from everything I've read was not a command. If it was a command, Rooney would get 100% of the credit but I just don't think it went down like that in the war room on draft day.

 

[deljzc]

I don't know, I'd say retaining Lebeau and hiring Arians from within turned out to be pretty good coaching moves for a rookie HC. Then hiring Haley was nothing short of brilliant as our O is now consistently top 5. I understand your positions of not putting an A grade on Tomlin, but with Wins and Losses as a factor, he's an A coach in my book. No losing season, 3 of his first 5 seasons were 12 wins.

Moving on to the rest of the tread:

Like I said in a previous thread. No Steeler player in 2008 considered themselves a Cowher player. Tomlin kicked their ***** in 07 and won a SB in 08. They are all Tomlin guys, and Tomlin got the best out of that team in 08 to take home our 6th Lombardi.

The players respect Tomlin, why can't the fans?

Who said I didn't respect him?

But why do you consider it respect to place undeserved credit on someone's achievement? I never once said Tomlin didn't deserve credit for the accomplishments this team has experienced since his arrival. Not once.

What I find frustrating is that you don't have that sword cut both ways. When we underachieve or fail to make the playoffs or lose in the playoffs as heavy favorites or at home where is the discredit to Tomlin? I don't hear it from you or his supporters much, instead it's either "not his fault" or "oh well" or a plethora of small, minor events that really add up to excuses.

All I want is fairness. Give credit for those seasons we overachieve and discredit in the same way in those seasons we underachieve.

What I see far too often is when we succeed it's Tomlin, but when we fail it's a list of excuses from health, to the execution, to the players, to the assistant coaches to a long list of things that imply it's "beyond Tomlin's control"....

It has to go both ways.

 

[Litos]

wether Cowher is a better coach than Tomlin, which I think he was but it doesn't take merit away from Tomlin being a very good coach. If you see Tomlin against what's out there, who's reeaally better than him? then look at who has been available to substitute him and you won't find a better choice.
Whoever says Bellichick is better and would like him here my answer is "**** off I don't want cheating on my team".
Pete Carroll is very good but he also has his warts,
Tomlin is probably at the same level with McCarthy, Reid and Arians (which I hated as an OC but it seems he is better HC material). So why compare him to Cowher when there probably isn't any active HC as good as he was?

 

[Stryker]

I wasn't attacking your respect for anyone Del. I moved on from addressing you when I stated: Moving on to the rest of the thread (tread was the misspelling).

That was me going back on topic of the thread, and not discussing your points.

I will agree that we overachieved last year. We had a ton of injuries, and our backups kept us performing at a high level. I felt the coaching staff had their best year, since every position (minus DL and LB) had a significant injury. And Munchak keeping that O line intact down a starting C and LT was nothing short of amazing. He's an excellent coach, as you correctly state, and deserves the credit there.

Injuries derailed the Ravens last year, and we kept plugging away.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Many of us have read that excerpt from Rooney's book. As far as I can tell, that's the only written account of the war room.

Obviously Rooney was being somewhat "politically correct" with the way he describes "coming to a consensus". I don't think the Rooney's have ever undermined the draft process of the coach/GM to a great degree in their history. And we are talking about a very established head coach here. Cowher was in his 12th season?

My opinion (and really that's all we can construe) is this:

1. From my understanding Rivers was the #1 guy on their board that year. Cowher loved him. Loved he was from North Carolina. Loved his fire. The whole kitten caboodle. This is important because it establishes that Cowher was not anti-quarterback. They were strongly looking at all the QB's that off-season (Manning, Rivers and Roethlisberger). The fact Dan Rooney knew so much about Roethlisberger proves QB talk was very prevalent in the building throughout the draft process.

2. Based on the pictures we have of the Steelers war room, I would venture the QB list (all first rounders) looked like Rivers - Manning - Roethlisberger. The offensive line list only had Robert Gallery and Shawn Andrews. When you look at that draft and try and piece meal together the Steelers board, it's evident this was NOT a good offensive line draft. Only THREE were taken in the entire first round and only FOUR in the entire second round (think about that for a second). There were as many running backs taken in the first two rounds as offensive linemen (how times have changed). So I would suspect there was significant talk that if you didn't get one of the few talent offensive line players, there wasn't much else.

3. Side note. Funny how Rooney implies there was actually DISCUSSION about the pick while we were on the clock. Isn't that counter to the growing consensus here that think our "running to the podium" couldn't possible impact our decisions at all???

4. So the conversation (WHILE ON THE CLOCK) was between Roethlisberger and Andrews. Roethlisberger, the small-school, last 1st round rated QB prospect with a lot of question marks vs. Shawn Andrews, an almost universally agreed "best guard in class" from a huge proven program.

5. I think Cowher was leaning Andrews. I think Colbert was being the sniveling yes-man he always has been (I believe he NEVER disagreed with Cowher on anything) and completely out of the picture. And any conversation/discussion was between Cowher and Rooney only. They were the BMOC in that room. Not Colbert. Not Whisenhunt (new O.C.). Not the scouts.

6. This discussion still involved TWO people. Rooney and Cowher and was never an ultimatum or command. It was a discussion with Rooney being the boss and Cowher being the employee (albeit with considerable power). In any conversation like that you "feel out your boss" and when it's close in your mind, you end up going your Boss' way. That's how it always is. If Cowher had really hated Roethlisberger, or thought Andrews was a vastly superior prospect, he would have pushed back. He didn't. Cowher ended up agreeing.

In summary, I think throughout all of Cowher/Colbert tenure the draft was 75% Cowher and 25% Colbert with that percentage leaning more-so towards Cowher in the early rounds (the money rounds 1-4) and more-so towards Colbert in the late rounds (5-7).

In the case of Roethlisberger I would put the percentage: Rooney 60%, Cowher 30% and Colbert 10% as to who deserves credit for the selection.

It WAS a consensus and from everything I've read was not a command. If it was a command, Rooney would get 100% of the credit but I just don't think it went down like that in the war room on draft day.

Coach obviously didnt.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Who said I didn't respect him?

But why do you consider it respect to place undeserved credit on someone's achievement? I never once said Tomlin didn't deserve credit for the accomplishments this team has experienced since his arrival. Not once.

What I find frustrating is that you don't have that sword cut both ways. When we underachieve or fail to make the playoffs or lose in the playoffs as heavy favorites or at home where is the discredit to Tomlin? I don't hear it from you or his supporters much, instead it's either "not his fault" or "oh well" or a plethora of small, minor events that really add up to excuses.

All I want is fairness. Give credit for those seasons we overachieve and discredit in the same way in those seasons we underachieve.

What I see far too often is when we succeed it's Tomlin, but when we fail it's a list of excuses from health, to the execution, to the players, to the assistant coaches to a long list of things that imply it's "beyond Tomlin's control"....

It has to go both ways.

You may not have said he doesn't deserve credit for our successful seasons since he took over but many here have. Cowher players, lucky to have Ben, lucky to have Lebeau. And I don't remember you jumping in to correct them if you did he feel deserve some credit.

And to be honest I don't remember any Tomlin is great posts or threads when we win..Tomlin is only defended when someone says "he only won because" which there are always more posts then he is some coaching genius.

I for one have never posted we won because of Tomlin and I've been labled the biggest pom pom waver for Tomlin on this board. Players win by executing. Players lose when they don't execute has always been my motto whether Cowher was coaching or Tomlin..

 

[Litos]

You may not have said he doesn't deserve credit for our successful seasons since he took over but many here have. Cowher players, lucky to have Ben, lucky to have Lebeau. And I don't remember you jumping in to correct them if you did he feel deserve some credit.

And to be honest I don't remember any Tomlin is great posts or threads when we win..Tomlin is only defended when someone says "he only won because" which there are always more posts then he is some coaching genius.

I for one have never posted we won because of Tomlin and I've been labled the biggest pom pom waver for Tomlin on this board. Players win by executing. Players lose when they don't execute has always been my motto whether Cowher was coaching or Tomlin..

I have been on the fence with tomlin and didn't want his contract extended until the end of last season, like a prove your worth thing but they jumped on the trigger before, which I didn't like. But what the coaching staff did last season was amazing, keeping the team competitve and fired up with so many important players missing time was the best coaching I have seen here in the tomlins tenure

 

[deljzc]

You may not have said he doesn't deserve credit for our successful seasons since he took over but many here have. Cowher players, lucky to have Ben, lucky to have Lebeau. And I don't remember you jumping in to correct them if you did he feel deserve some credit.

And to be honest I don't remember any Tomlin is great posts or threads when we win..Tomlin is only defended when someone says "he only won because" which there are always more posts then he is some coaching genius.

I for one have never posted we won because of Tomlin and I've been labled the biggest pom pom waver for Tomlin on this board. Players win by executing. Players lose when they don't execute has always been my motto whether Cowher was coaching or Tomlin..

That's part of the reason my "criteria of a good coach" doesn't just begin or end with record. I mean, they are kind of the CEO of the organization in my opinion. They run the "PROGRAM" and that involves a lot of oversight to how Colbert works, how the scouts work, how information is dissected, how tape is evaluated to his specifications, how the coaches interact going up and down rank.

We can evaluate "results" and then try to interpret WHY those results happen and are we doing enough to increase our chances at success. Nothing is a guarantee, but if you do enough little things (in business or anything else) to improve you chances, increase the odds, whatever.... success and overachievement normally (not always) happen.

Every level up the ladder of responsibility is in charge of greater foresight and looking ahead.

The players are literally told and taught only to look back/ahead ONE GAME.
Positional coaches are literally told and taught only to look back four games and ahead four games (at most).
Assistant coaches normally only worry about the last 6-8 games and plan 6-8 games ahead.
Head coaches are responsible for the whole season and should be looking at the big picture in that context.
General manages should be looking back/ahead 2-3 seasons.
Owners should be looking ahead at what is best for their franchise 5-10 years down the line.

That's how detail oriented programs with a military hierarchy work. In every industry across countless fields of study and application.

When any of those things break down: when players stop thinking game-to-game. When assistant coaches start thinking about next year or their job or their resume and not short term (reviewing the last 4 games and concentrating on the next 2-3). When head coaches focus too hard on the NEXT GAME and don't manage big picture concepts and act as leaders or when head coaches stop caring about consistent messages and consistency in technique. When GM's stop looking long term and focus on short term, job-saving actions. Or when even owners think short term and don't have the foresight of long-term planning (or don't enforce the actions above).

That's when the PROGRAM fails to produce success. That when kinks end up in the armor.

The one great thing about the Steelers franchise is that they stay truer to these principles of management than many other franchises. It's still not perfect in my opinion and there is opportunity for improvement, but for the most part the hierarchy, the chain-of-command, the division of responsibility, the allocation of tasks is pretty decent. My only gripe might be the planning aspects of this franchise and the looking ahead. I still think too many of their decisions are short sighted and I think that comes from the division of power and the job interaction between Tomlin and Colbert (I think it's a bit too cozy and they don't push each other enough outside their comfort levels - I think the relationship is stagnant). I think it should then be the Owners responsibility to reestablish the guidelines of "planning ahead" but Art Rooney II seems more concerned with other things right now. I think Dan Rooney might have been more involved in that part of the Cowher/Donahoe/Colbert relationship or Cowher was more naturally concerned with long term team building than Tomlin. Who knows.

But that's my opinion of the franchise and Tomlin's responsibility in it.

 

[POP]

Well, if we being completely fair, Tomlin deserves credit for hiring Munchak. That has arguable been Tomlin's greatest addition to the team over the last 5 seasons.

I get the distinct impression that Tomlin isn't really the end decision maker on the whole staff. I believe Rooneys are making those calls. I believe Art was the one to put his foot down on the LeBeau circus and demanded that change, not Tomlin.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Rooneys brought in Munch, not Tomlin.

If Tomlin called those shots, we'd still have LeBeau and probably Troy would have still been playing last year. Probably Keisel too.

 

[deljzc]

I get the distinct impression the Tomlin isn't really the end decision maker on the whole staff. I believe Rooneys are making those calls. I believe Art was the one to put his foot down on the LeBeau circus and demanded that change, not Tomlin.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Rooneys brought in Munch, not Tomlin.

If Tomlin called those shots, we'd still have LeBeau and probably Troy would have still been playing last year. Probably Keisel too.

I don't know. If that's the case, you have to say the exact same thing about Cowher. I don't think there is any evidence that the Rooney's have "more oversight" of Tomlin than they did Cowher.

Tomlin was almost 8 years in when he hired Munchak. If you want to play that game, then you better well say Cowher didn't make the decision to fire Kevin Gilbride in 2000 and promote Mike Mularkey. You better be fair and then say Cowher wasn't responsible for hiring Dick Lebeau in 2004.

I will certainly agree that Cowher had a much greater impact on his FIRST coaching staff vs. Tomlin. When we discuss credit and decision making and result early, there is a HUGE difference between Cowher, who retained almost no one from the Noll era, and was part of the hiring process that brought in very good (some hall-of-fame) assistants like Ron Earhart, Dom Capers (still in league), Bill Davis (still in league), Dick Lebeau (hall-of-fame coach) and Marvin Lewis (still in league). That's a hell of a first staff put together by Cowher at AGE 35!!!.

Tomlin's staff on the other hand was comprised almost entirely by retained coaches: Bruce Arians (retained, promoted), Lebeau (retained), Butler (retained), Horton (retained). The only notable addition is Harold Goodwin (who is now offensive coordinator with Arians, which begs to question whether Arians and not Tomlin hired him in 2007).

For the most part Tomlin's significant first year hires like Larry Zierlein (OL), Bob Ligashesky/Amos Jones (ST), Randy Fichner (QB), Kirby Wilson (RB) and those after mid-way through like Al Everest (ST), Sean Kugler (OL), Jerry Olsavsky (LB), Scottie Montgomery (WR), Jack Bicknell Jr. (OL), Richard Mann (WR), Carnell Lake (DB), Joey Porter (OLB)....

Let's face it... that's a pretty "blah" group of assistant coaches that haven't quite set the world on fire with promotions or making waves in the league. Maybe Lake and Porter might (they are still young), but most are pretty bad.

The big hires for Tomlin are only two: Haley and Munchak. That's it. And Tomlin does deserve credit for those.

But again, as comparable to Cowher, it's not even close. Cowher was incredible at finding coaches. It is arguably his greatest attribute as a head coach. The shear number of early coaches that have stayed in the league, been promoted, found success and are just well-regarded among the NFL is crazy.

Tomlin's successful coaching hires are all "downward" coaches. Previous head coaches that are back to being assistants. Cowher really did find diamonds among a huge group of potential young coaches for key coaching jobs. And I'm sure their coaching talent greatly contributed to his early success at turning around this franchise from 51-61 to 63-33. No doubt about that.

 

[bermudasteel]

First Tomlin-bashing thread of the offseason??? Unbelievable...

 

[POP]

]I don't know. If that's the case, you have to say the exact same thing about Cowher. I don't think there is any evidence that the Rooney's have "more oversight" of Tomlin than they did Cowher.

BC power of influence grew over time. I don't know that MT even cares to make those decisions. You could tell it was an awkward situation when LeBeau would speak about his tenure....he chose words to indicate his residency would be up to MT, but when he said it, the words seemed somewhat forced, as in, that call really wasn't MT's. As a matter of fact, both departures of Arians and LeBeau occurred with MT saying very little.

Tomlin was almost 8 years in when he hired Munchak. If you want to play that game, then you better well say Cowher didn't make the decision to fire Kevin Gilbride in 2000 and promote Mike Mularkey. You better be fair and then say Cowher wasn't responsible for hiring Dick Lebeau in 2004.

Umm, OK. Actually, the Rooneys had a long history with LeBeau, so I do doubt BC made that call. It is highly likely that it was the Rooneys. It seems vastly obvious to me that Rooneys made the call on "retiring" Arians and pushing DL out as well.

I will certainly agree that Cowher had a much greater impact on his FIRST coaching staff vs. Tomlin. When we discuss credit and decision making and result early, there is a HUGE difference between Cowher, who retained almost no one from the Noll era, and was part of the hiring process that brought in very good (some hall-of-fame) assistants like Ron Earhart, Dom Capers (still in league), Bill Davis (still in league), Dick Lebeau (hall-of-fame coach) and Marvin Lewis (still in league). That's a hell of a first staff put together by Cowher at AGE 35!!!.

Not sure if BC pulled all the levers on those coaches. It's not germain to the assertion. All I am saying is that with MT, I don't think he is the final decision maker on the ***. coaches.

Tomlin's staff on the other hand was comprised almost entirely by retained coaches: Bruce Arians (retained, promoted), Lebeau (retained), Butler (retained), Horton (retained). The only notable addition is Harold Goodwin (who is now offensive coordinator with Arians, which begs to question whether Arians and not Tomlin hired him in 2007).


For the most part Tomlin's significant first year hires like Larry Zierlein (OL), Bob Ligashesky/Amos Jones (ST), Randy Fichner (QB), Kirby Wilson (RB) and those after mid-way through like Al Everest (ST), Sean Kugler (OL), Jerry Olsavsky (LB), Scottie Montgomery (WR), Jack Bicknell Jr. (OL), Richard Mann (WR), Carnell Lake (DB), Joey Porter (OLB)....

I am not going to pretend to know how every coach was hired and who called the shots with each. It could be a mixed bag. But you definitely can see signs that the Rooneys are at least part of the process.

Let's face it... that's a pretty "blah" group of assistant coaches that haven't quite set the world on fire with promotions or making waves in the league. Maybe Lake and Porter might (they are still young), but most are pretty bad.

The big hires for Tomlin are only two: Haley and Munchak. That's it. And Tomlin does deserve credit for those.

Does he? How do you know?

But again, as comparable to Cowher, it's not even close. Cowher was incredible at finding coaches. It is arguably his greatest attribute as a head coach. The shear number of early coaches that have stayed in the league, been promoted, found success and are just well-regarded among the NFL is crazy.

Tomlin's successful coaching hires are all "downward" coaches. Previous head coaches that are back to being assistants. Cowher really did find diamonds among a huge group of potential young coaches for key coaching jobs. And I'm sure their coaching talent greatly contributed to his early success at turning around this franchise from 51-61 to 63-33. No doubt about that.

On most of our coaches being on the "downside" of coaching, maybe they prefer that over constantly losing their assist. coaches each year where they move to greener pastures. Not saying I know. But I applaud the moves of ditching LeBeau (too old and antiquated, too much in love with his old guys) and Arians (even though he has proved himself a very good head coach, still was in favor of dumping him because his O system gets the QB creamed and we saw enough of that).

 

[deljzc]

I think it's a little unfair and myopic to just "assume" Cowher was more assertive and involved in his assistant coaching decisions than Tomlin. There is not evidence of that over the last 3-4 seasons. None.

There is also very little evidence that Tomlin, in his 10th season, has less power than Cowher in his 10th season inside the building. If anything I would argue the other way because Cowher had to deal with a more domineering Tom Donahoe and Dan Rooney as apposed to (I think) the more reserved and behind the scenes Colbert and Art Rooney II. Art Rooney in particular seems to be very hands off to me and is much more involved with big picture financial issues both for the Steelers and the NFL.

I think you're being a little hard on Tomlin for this. You can't say "no credit". We can argue how much: 20%, 60%, 80% whatever until the cows come home, but he WAS involved with both the Haley and Munchak hiring, just like we can argue about the percentage Rooney, Cowher and Colbert deserve credit for the Roethlisberger selection. It's all hyperbole.

All I think is prudent is that we apply the same rules/assumptions to both Cowher and Tomlin as equally as possible unless provided strong evidence to the contrary.