• Please be aware we've switched the forums to their own URL. (again) You'll find the new website address to be www.steelernationforum.com Thanks
  • Please clear your private messages. Your inbox is close to being full.

Speaking of inheriting good players...

  • Thread starter Thread starter POP
  • Start date Start date
Cowher inherited Huey Richardson too. The guys he inherited was a mix of aged vets like Ilkin and young guys. To say that he inherited some great team is a stretch. Greg Lloyd may not have even made it in the NFL had Cowher not installed an innovative zone blitz scheme that perfectly fit Lloyd's skills.

Cowher took over for a legend. And as a rookie coach he put together a tremendous staff. That is one of the most overlooked aspects of coaching, putting together a staff. Ron Erhardt, Chan Gailey, Dom Capers, Dick Lebeau, and Marvin Lewis.

He traded 1st rounder Tim Worley and went with unknown Barry Foster as his lead RB and he had 1690 rushing in Cowher's first season. He played Foster over more established guys like Hoge, Warren Williams and Leroy Thompson.

He got rid of Louis Lipps and went with the young guys Mills and Graham and eventually Thigpen.

His first draft he got Searcy, Kirkland, Joel Steed, and Darren Perry.

Tomlin inherited a team of Super Bowl Champions and a franchise QB. He made very few changes, even keeping the same schemes and coaches.
 
Greg Lloyd may not have even made it in the NFL had Cowher not installed an innovative zone blitz scheme that perfectly fit Lloyd's skills.

Most of what you said makes sense, but this is probably the craziest statement you've ever made on this board. Lloyd was in his 6th season when Cowher took over. He was very well established, and coming off of his first Pro Bowl. To say he may not have made it is beyond crazy. He had already made it. Did he thrive under Cowher? Of course, why wouldn't he, but he had already established himself as a star, and was in his prime.
 
Last edited:
And now we are finally into the "Tomlin" era (of course, he STILL has Roethlisberger) and things are kind of blah. Last 4 seasons are 37-27. Two missed playoffs. 1-1 playoff record. No final-4's. And this just happens to coincide when most of the Cowher talent started to retire/leave the team and Tomlin's talent has to take over. Of course there are going to be questions.

One thing to keep in mind is that you probably have to compare the last 4 years under Tomlin, to the late 90s under Cowher. In both cases, the star players got old. People like to blame it all on Kordell, but the truth is that those teams weren't that good. Drafting fell off after Cowher's first few years. Having Ben is the reason why Tomlin's teams were able to post better records than Cowher's teams during the rebuilding. If you look at the drafts, you'll see that the drafts started to pick up in the late 90s. By 2001, we were ready to roll again. Even with Kordell still under center. This is what we're looking for going forward. The team has been rebuilt. The next few years will determine if Tomlin is seen as a George Seifert type, or if he's getting a gold jacket. If the Steelers lift the Lombardi in the next 3-4 years, Tomlin will be getting a bust in Canton, and deservedly so.
 
Cowher inherited Huey Richardson too. The guys he inherited was a mix of aged vets like Ilkin and young guys. To say that he inherited some great team is a stretch. Greg Lloyd may not have even made it in the NFL had Cowher not installed an innovative zone blitz scheme that perfectly fit Lloyd's skills.

Cowher took over for a legend. And as a rookie coach he put together a tremendous staff. That is one of the most overlooked aspects of coaching, putting together a staff. Ron Erhardt, Chan Gailey, Dom Capers, Dick Lebeau, and Marvin Lewis.

He traded 1st rounder Tim Worley and went with unknown Barry Foster as his lead RB and he had 1690 rushing in Cowher's first season. He played Foster over more established guys like Hoge, Warren Williams and Leroy Thompson.

He got rid of Louis Lipps and went with the young guys Mills and Graham and eventually Thigpen.

His first draft he got Searcy, Kirkland, Joel Steed, and Darren Perry.

Tomlin inherited a team of Super Bowl Champions and a franchise QB. He made very few changes, even keeping the same schemes and coaches.

What would people have had him do? Wouldn't it have been the height of arrogance to come in and force changes? I think he deserves credit for having the humility to accept what was working and not go changing everything just to put in his system.

The coach who is coaching the team deserves credit. It is that simple. This whole argument is silly. Cowher was a great coach who deserves the credit for what he accomplished from the minute he started. Same with Tomlin.
 
One thing to keep in mind is that you probably have to compare the last 4 years under Tomlin, to the late 90s under Cowher. In both cases, the star players got old. People like to blame it all on Kordell, but the truth is that those teams weren't that good. Drafting fell off after Cowher's first few years. Having Ben is the reason why Tomlin's teams were able to post better records than Cowher's teams during the rebuilding. If you look at the drafts, you'll see that the drafts started to pick up in the late 90s. By 2001, we were ready to roll again. Even with Kordell still under center. This is what we're looking for going forward. The team has been rebuilt. The next few years will determine if Tomlin is seen as a George Seifert type, or if he's getting a gold jacket. If the Steelers lift the Lombardi in the next 3-4 years, Tomlin will be getting a bust in Canton, and deservedly so.

A bust in Canton??! GTFOH
 
It's an ongoing debates across many boards. It goes like this, over and over.

1.) Tomlin hasn't done anything without Cowher's players.

2.) The further Tomlin is from Cowher's players, the worst the team becomes. (Two non-winning seasons in a row.)

3.) Tomlin only won a ring with a team he had little to do with building.

The above points is why it leads some to note that the Cowher 90's teams were mostly built from Noll's regimes.

13 Pro Bowlers?


Cowher 5-1 in the playoffs with Ben
Tomlin 6-4.

It's clear the leadership has declined under Tomlin.

Cowher record with O'Donnell and Roethlisberger combined better than just about any coach.

Free agency took away O'Donnell and Cowher had to decide between Tomzack, Stewart, Grham or Miller...I highly doubt Tomlin would have survived with those jokers at quarterback.
 
Agree with most of that, but I'm not giving Cowher much credit for drafting Ben. The Rooneys pushed for Ben, just like they pushed for Franco Harris. I remember Noll saying that the 90-91 teams had the most talent since the 70s, and the press sneering at that. He was right. The problem was Joe Walton. Cowher fixed the problem by bringing in a good OC. The biggest issue I have with those who boost Cowher is that they always want to give him a pass for having crappy quarterbacks. He's a major reason why we had crappy quarterbacks. He thought we could win with those guys, and never pushed to make any moves to get a quality qb in here. He'd have stuck with Maddox if the Rooneys hadn't put their foot down. You can't bash Tombert for Uncle Jarvis, and Hood, and then be quiet about the qbs under Cowher.

How many times do we have to rehash the QB situation under Cowher?

We (I) have analyzed every draft, every off-season free agent market, every financial decision about the QB position are there are VERY few "changes" that could have been made. The 1990's were one of worst decades at producing QB talent (maybe the worst). The only legitimate choices in Cowher's entire first decade (before Roethlisberger) at the QB decision come down to 2 choices:

1. Should he have signed O'Donnell in free agency in 1996.
2. Should he have drafted Chad Pennington over Plaxico Burress in 2000.

That's it. For all the complaints about Stewart, he was actually an okay draft choice (look at the other QB's drafted in the 1990's in the late 1st/2nd/3rd round). He rode Stewart in a QB starved league about as much as he could. Got him to two final-4 appearances.

For all the "what if" Cowher/Colbert had won the battle between Shawn Andrews vs. Ben Roethlisberger in 2004, the bottom line is it didn't happen and Roethlisberger WAS drafted under Cowher's tenure. Even if you don't give Cowher/Colbert the credit for Roethlisberger, you certainly CAN'T give it to Tomlin.

Again. There is no comparison. Cowher is the superior coach. He did more with less. He exceeded expectations more often that Tomlin. His tenure turned the franchise around. Cowher is not perfect. He's not a top-10 all-time coach. He has warts. But when comparing him to Tomlin and his warts, there really isn't a comparison at all. At least at this point.

Tomlin looks like he will get another decade to advance his coaching resume. We'll see how things look then.
 
How many times do we have to rehash the QB situation under Cowher?

We (I) have analyzed every draft, every off-season free agent market, every financial decision about the QB position are there are VERY few "changes" that could have been made. The 1990's were one of worst decades at producing QB talent (maybe the worst). The only legitimate choices in Cowher's entire first decade (before Roethlisberger) at the QB decision come down to 2 choices:

1. Should he have signed O'Donnell in free agency in 1996.
2. Should he have drafted Chad Pennington over Plaxico Burress in 2000.

That's it. For all the complaints about Stewart, he was actually an okay draft choice (look at the other QB's drafted in the 1990's in the late 1st/2nd/3rd round). He rode Stewart in a QB starved league about as much as he could. Got him to two final-4 appearances.

For all the "what if" Cowher/Colbert had won the battle between Shawn Andrews vs. Ben Roethlisberger in 2004, the bottom line is it didn't happen and Roethlisberger WAS drafted under Cowher's tenure. Even if you don't give Cowher/Colbert the credit for Roethlisberger, you certainly CAN'T give it to Tomlin.

Again. There is no comparison. Cowher is the superior coach. He did more with less. He exceeded expectations more often that Tomlin. His tenure turned the franchise around. Cowher is not perfect. He's not a top-10 all-time coach. He has warts. But when comparing him to Tomlin and his warts, there really isn't a comparison at all. At least at this point.

Tomlin looks like he will get another decade to advance his coaching resume. We'll see how things look then.

I concur. Losing O'Donnell likley cost us another trip to the super bowl. We were so close, and then Kordel threw three picks to Denver.

Had Cowher stayed around, he likley has 1-2 more rings and makes the hall of fame.

Colbert and Tomlin owe their jobs to Ben. We see how the team is without him.
 
We continue to rehash it not because of Cowher but because some of you still believe Mike Tomlin has to prove himself when he already has. He's a good coach. Some of you still acting like this hasn't been proven when it has. That's the disconnect. You build up Cowher to be a coaching God and Tomlin is Rich Kotite.
 
I think the big difference between Cowher and Tomlin is Ben. And I don't give Cowher credit for drafting Ben because if I remember correctly he wanted Rivers (who isn't chopped liver) but in the cold of the Burgh I don't think he does as well as he has in SD. But, Ben changed the game for Cowher and has put this team on his back a few times and Tomlin has benefited from that. I think after all the early years hoopla if Ben would have been traded like the Rooney's threatened Tomlin would not still be coaching this team. And I feel if we don't have a franchise QB within a few years of Ben retiring Tomlin will be fired.
 
We continue to rehash it not because of Cowher but because some of you still believe Mike Tomlin has to prove himself when he already has. He's a good coach. Some of you still acting like this hasn't been proven when it has. That's the disconnect. You build up Cowher to be a coaching God and Tomlin is Rich Kotite.

No. We rehash it because some are declaring just the opposite. That Tomlin HAS proven himself beyond all doubt and that he is a great coach.

I disagree. Nothing about Tomlin's tenure to me is "great". There are parts of head coaching I think he does well. And there are others I think he struggles with. Remember, 10 years ago, I wrote the following concerning Tomlin's hire and how we should evaluate his performance:

1. How well and successful will he work with Kevin Colbert in talent evaluation? Nothing is more important in the NFL than getting quality players - for whatever system he chooses (even if I hate the Tampa-2). If this doesn’t work, nothing else ever will.

2. Does he have the capability to put together quality coordinators and people around him? Is he experienced enough to have made the necessary connections in the league to attract quality assistants? His first staff has been assembled for him and is very good in my opinion but I am unsure how well everyone will co-exist. Will his second staff prove to be quality, on-the-rise coaches?

3. Can he delegate responsibility so he can concentrate on being a head coach, first and foremost? Will he spend too much time on the defensive side of the ball or acting like a coordinator? Will he try to do too much?

4. Is he clearly the captain of the ship? Are his decisions consistent with his philosophy? Is he treating the players equal and fair?

5. Are his players reaching their potential and playing to their ability? Is he motivating, teaching and inspiring the team as a whole (offense and special teams) or just the defense? What is the state of the locker room and veteran leadership? Is there grumbling, locker room problems or off-the-field issues?

6. In-season management and demeanor. Is he making the correct roster decisions? Are the correct players starting? How is he handling the 53-man roster and inactive spots for games? Is he making the correct critical decisions come crunch time? Is his demeanor positive and in control? How are his game plans and in-game adjustments?

7. Wins and Losses. Most fans agree this team is capable of making the playoffs over the next few years, to not base some evaluation of Tomlin on whether we make the playoffs or not would be unrealistic.


I struggle to think of one of those criteria that Tomlin is superior to Cowher. I struggle to debate Tomlin would get an "A" grade in any of them.

Obviously that's my opinion. I would love to hear and debate a non-Steelers fan who follows and knows the intricate details of our team to grade Tomlin using the above criteria. To ask this board however is a double edged sword because I think there a majority here that would support a Steelers coach and say he is doing a good job no matter what his performance. That always give the benefit of the doubt to the organization. That make excuses for underachievement. That always look at the glass half-full, quarter-full or whatever the case may be and argue "At least we aren't the Browns" as the starting point of all debate.

I'm not that fan. My expectation are high when I think high expectations are warranted. I don't count my blessings we aren't a bad team in the league, rather those poorly run teams just prove how little competition there really is to be exceptional.

My expectations with Cowher's teams were NEVER as high as they've been with Tomlin because Cowher never had a quarterback as talented as Roethlisberger. The fact he accomplished so much without that god-given advantage is tantamount to watching a 4th round pick exceed the production of a 1st round pick.

Yes, Tomlin couldn't help he was given Roethlisberger. Just like 1st round picks can't help being drafted in that round. But that doesn't change the fact more is expected of 1st round picks than 4th round picks for precising the same reason more is expected of Tomlin that Cowher. The team Cowher inherited, for all its talent, was performing like a 4th round draft choice. There is no denying that. Cowher turned that into 1st round production.

Tomlin inherited 1st round talent and rode it to (maybe) 1st round production (some years definitely less).

That is all this debate is about. No more, no less.
 
Last edited:
All of that is just discrediting Tomlin..it doesn't matter what he inherited. I can give you all the ingredients to make a 5 course dinner and you can **** it up.. the man came in smartly realized blowing up everything would be counter productive. That right there in itself deserves major kudos. Part of being a leader is leaving your ego at home. Cowher coached the Steelers to two superbowls Tomlin has done the same. You guys touting Cowher roster building should know that PFF has us rated as the 4th most talented roster with out Martavis Bryant. Not saying PFF is the end all bad be all but you best believe if they had us 28th someone(Coach) would of posted it already. Just saying those who were saying Tomlin can't build a roster have to admit that arrow is pointing up also. I mean seriously we into Denver and almost, should have beat them with half our team on the sidelines but you guys still don't believe this guy can coach a little
 
How many times do we have to rehash the QB situation under Cowher?

We (I) have analyzed every draft, every off-season free agent market, every financial decision about the QB position are there are VERY few "changes" that could have been made. The 1990's were one of worst decades at producing QB talent (maybe the worst). The only legitimate choices in Cowher's entire first decade (before Roethlisberger) at the QB decision come down to 2 choices:

1. Should he have signed O'Donnell in free agency in 1996.
2. Should he have drafted Chad Pennington over Plaxico Burress in 2000.

That's it. For all the complaints about Stewart, he was actually an okay draft choice (look at the other QB's drafted in the 1990's in the late 1st/2nd/3rd round). He rode Stewart in a QB starved league about as much as he could. Got him to two final-4 appearances.

For all the "what if" Cowher/Colbert had won the battle between Shawn Andrews vs. Ben Roethlisberger in 2004, the bottom line is it didn't happen and Roethlisberger WAS drafted under Cowher's tenure. Even if you don't give Cowher/Colbert the credit for Roethlisberger, you certainly CAN'T give it to Tomlin.

Again. There is no comparison. Cowher is the superior coach. He did more with less. He exceeded expectations more often that Tomlin. His tenure turned the franchise around. Cowher is not perfect. He's not a top-10 all-time coach. He has warts. But when comparing him to Tomlin and his warts, there really isn't a comparison at all. At least at this point.

Tomlin looks like he will get another decade to advance his coaching resume. We'll see how things look then.

We could have nabbed Jake Plummer in '97. What QBs came up as free agents in that span? Moon in 1994, but we still had O'Donnell. Really, Dejzc, it appears you are right.
 
We could have nabbed Jake Plummer in '97. What QBs came up as free agents in that span? Moon in 1994, but we still had O'Donnell. Really, Dejzc, it appears you are right.

The quarterback with the higher grade in 1997 was actually Druckenmiller. He was on the board in round 1 when we selected Chad Scott.

The logical assumption is that IF we had forced a QB in 1997 with our first round pick, it would have been Druckenmiller, not Plummer. And Plummer was gone before we picked in the 2nd round.

In any logical assumption or in the moment discussion, Plummer was never a realistic possibility. In hindsight, the Steelers were wise to pass of Druckenmiller.
 
All of that is just discrediting Tomlin..it doesn't matter what he inherited. I can give you all the ingredients to make a 5 course dinner and you can **** it up.. the man came in smartly realized blowing up everything would be counter productive. That right there in itself deserves major kudos. Part of being a leader is leaving your ego at home. Cowher coached the Steelers to two superbowls Tomlin has done the same. You guys touting Cowher roster building should know that PFF has us rated as the 4th most talented roster with out Martavis Bryant. Not saying PFF is the end all bad be all but you best believe if they had us 28th someone(Coach) would of posted it already. Just saying those who were saying Tomlin can't build a roster have to admit that arrow is pointing up also. I mean seriously we into Denver and almost, should have beat them with half our team on the sidelines but you guys still don't believe this guy can coach a little

So would you credit a cook that is given the ingredients for a 2-course dinner and makes a 5-course dinner more? I would and so would everyone here. You just reinforced my point.

And if they have the 4th best roster, why are they in the final-4? We haven't sniffed the final-4 since 2010. Why is that exactly? What excuse are you going to offer up?
 
See the issue is we aren't arguing the same thing. We both agree Cowher was a great coach.. where we differ is on Tomlin. I think he has already proven himself to be a good coach your still waiting. On what I don't know. I'm not going to argue on who is or was better that's just semantics people use to say Tomlin isn't a good coach. Like they both can't be good for some reason..
 
What would people have had him do? Wouldn't it have been the height of arrogance to come in and force changes? I think he deserves credit for having the humility to accept what was working and not go changing everything just to put in his system.

The coach who is coaching the team deserves credit. It is that simple. This whole argument is silly. Cowher was a great coach who deserves the credit for what he accomplished from the minute he started. Same with Tomlin.

But Tomlin did make changes. He kept drafting defensive players who fit the Tampa 2 and not the 3-4 and worst of all, he let the OL go to ****. This was because he couldn't stand up to Arians who actually said you didn't need a good OL if you have good enough skill players.

The Tomlin Arians combo wasted some of Ben's prime years by allowing him to regress to a guy running around looking for the big play every play. Tomlin never identified that problem. It was the Rooneys who had to step in and fire Arians because they saw Ben getting worse and taking too many hits while Arians encouraged that style of play.

Funny how Arians became a head coach and all of a sudden he puts a big investment into the OL. I guess it's different when you are head coach and responsible for wins instead of an OC who gets labeled a genius for good passing stats.

Look at the shambles the OL has been until Mike Munchak dropped out of the sky and fixed it. This OL would probably still be **** if Munchak didn't coach them up.
 
So would you credit a cook that is given the ingredients for a 2-course dinner and makes a 5-course dinner more? I would and so would everyone here. You just reinforced my point.

And if they have the 4th best roster, why are they in the final-4? We haven't sniffed the final-4 since 2010. Why is that exactly? What excuse are you going to offer up?

Didn't even see the bottom part just replied to the to top. Excuse? Excuse for what? Talent isn't the only reason you win..the most talented team doesn't win every year. We all have been watching football long enough to know that. My point was that those who say we haven't turned the roster over can't point to that anymore because people are starting to call the talent we have the best in the league. Now of course they will say we haven't won anything just like you did. Then if and when we do I'm sure there will be something else instead of just acknowledging that the guy can coach a little bit
 
Well, if we being completely fair, Tomlin deserves credit for hiring Munchak. That has arguable been Tomlin's greatest addition to the team over the last 5 seasons.
 
I just find it funny how you guys want to fault Tomlin for things but absolve Cowher..Rooney's had to step in and save Ben. That's just fact. And that's a negative for Tomlin But you tell them the Rooney's had to step in and tell Cowher and company to draft Ben they will argue till they blue on the face and want to credit Cowher..

Who are these Tampa 2 guys he kept drafting? Timmons? A starting LB who has been very productive. Hood? Who else.. ignored the Oline? Why because they thought the better value was at other positions. Then when they addressed the position people couldn't even wait for the talent to develop before labeling them bust. Now that talent has developed into one of the best lines in the league.. Credit Tomlin nope all Munchak. None to the guy who was secure enough to bring a ex head coach onto his staff.
 
I just find it funny how you guys want to fault Tomlin for things but absolve Cowher..Rooney's had to step in and save Ben. That's just fact. And that's a negative for Tomlin But you tell them the Rooney's had to step in and tell Cowher and company to draft Ben they will argue till they blue on the face and want to credit Cowher..

Who are these Tampa 2 guys he kept drafting? Timmons? A starting LB who has been very productive. Hood? Who else.. ignored the Oline? Why because they thought the better value was at other positions. Then when they addressed the position people couldn't even wait for the talent to develop before labeling them bust. Now that talent has developed into one of the best lines in the league.. Credit Tomlin nope all Munchak. None to the guy who was secure enough to bring a ex head coach onto his staff.


Did Rooney ever say point blank draft Ben as an order? Link please? I think you're twisting some unknown facts. The pick was a collaborate effort, and if Cowher was not on board with Ben, Ben would NOT have been the pick.
 
A bust in Canton??! GTFOH

Three trips to the SB with two victories gets you a bust in Canton. Every coach that's been to 3 Super Bowls is in Canton, except Belicheat, and that's because he's still active.
 
Did Rooney ever say point blank draft Ben as an order? Link please? I think you're twisting some unknown facts. The pick was a collaborate effort, and if Cowher was not on board with Ben, Ben would NOT have been the pick.
But somehow Tomlin picks are all his own. Go figure.
 
Did Rooney ever say point blank draft Ben as an order? Link please? I think you're twisting some unknown facts. The pick was a collaborate effort, and if Cowher was not on board with Ben, Ben would NOT have been the pick.

Also I remember reading and hearing Cowher wanted Andrews OL. And of the 3 QB's he liked Rivers the most. So I do not find it hard to believe that Rooney had to push Ben a little in the draft room. What I find weird is that Rooney even had to open his mouth to begin with. Ben was the "no brain" pick at that spot but apparently someone didn't want him because Rooney had to give his little Marino speech.
 
Top