Rooney on secondary: We've made some mistakes

[steel shinin]

Here is the thing. The Steelers in the last 20+ years have had a very obvious philosophy with their secondary. They play their corners in this system on the edges like they play their safeties in space. They want run and hit guys. They see no reason to draft 1st round corners to play in this defense unless they're drafting in the top 15, top 10 really. Honestly, with a top 10 pick they would probably never go corner either. They value other positions in the 1st round way more. Unlike a lot of people on this board I like Antwon Blake and I think he is a Steelers type corner and if he can improve his footwork he can start and produce consistently. This was really his first year starting. He's physical and he makes plays. It's amazing to me that people who watch this team for years can't figure out why the coaching staff likes Blake. They are the same people who bitched about William Gay for years. Guys take time to develop. Ross Cockrell was a good get for them and hopefully he can remain a solid 2 or 3 corner. If they can resign Blake and Gay and Golson can get better as the year goes on they're in solid shape. Mike Mitchell has a good season and it usually takes guys a year to get comfortable in this defense. Took Ryan Clark till year 3 honestly because of his sickle cell situation in 2007, but once he was healthy in 2008 it was on and poppin. The spot people need to be focused on more than any other is that strong safety position. The Steelers want to go to more cover 2 under Keith Butler and Tomlin, and now that there's no Polamalu or LeBeau it makes sense, BUT they'd be better off getting a top end strong safety and at least having the option to still play more cover 3 when needed. If you play cover 2 more then you better hope Shazier stays healthy because he then becomes the rover in that defense.

 

[deljzc]

I never understand the homers that want to criticize fans that criticize draft picks.

I don't think some understand WHY me and (I think) many other criticize draft picks so fiercely at time. First it is not that we don't except and expect picks to fail. We do. I especially understand the math/probability behind the draft process. In fact, I think those that are MOST CRITICAL of the Steelers draft performance actually understand the math/probability of success the most.

It is the understanding of the math/probability of success in the draft that makes it so frustrating to us when the Steelers front office ignore key indicators of success/fail in prospects and thus increase the likelihood a player fails in the first place.

I am also critical of the over-valuing of special teams ability in the prospect evaluation process and that there is a history in the Colbert-Tomlin regime that is "chases" quick-fixes to special teams issues by using a valuable draft slot.

This, and only this, is the reason (rightfully so in my opinion) to criticize the Steelers' draft approach in the Colbert-Tomlin era.

My criticism of the Jarvis Jones selection has NOTHING TO DO with what he has become or hasn't become. It is completely based on their philosophical, evaluation process that ignored key indicators that were worrisome: he was an older prospect, he was undersized, he grossly lacked KEI, explosion numbers and speed, he had a questionable history with a back injury.

And Jones isn't even one of my most disappointing picks.

There were philosophical question marks with the Evander Hood selection (out of position), Dri Archer (too many to mention), the lack of size in a majority of our secondary picks, the lack of footwork/athleticism in our offensive line picks (though that is getting better since Munchak is here).

I can and will question the Steelers draft process when I think they are philosophically WRONG with a decision or INCONSISTENT in their criteria/scouting process (i.e. they bullshit about something being important one year and then the complete opposite the next).

 

[Coryea]

when have we since drafting Chad Scott, skipped on a top notch CB in the draft in round 1?

 

[nitsuj1225]

Here is the thing. The Steelers in the last 20+ years have had a very obvious philosophy with their secondary. They play their corners in this system on the edges like they play their safeties in space. They want run and hit guys. They see no reason to draft 1st round corners to play in this defense unless they're drafting in the top 15, top 10 really. Honestly, with a top 10 pick they would probably never go corner either. They value other positions in the 1st round way more. Unlike a lot of people on this board I like Antwon Blake and I think he is a Steelers type corner and if he can improve his footwork he can start and produce consistently. This was really his first year starting. He's physical and he makes plays. It's amazing to me that people who watch this team for years can't figure out why the coaching staff likes Blake. They are the same people who bitched about William Gay for years. Guys take time to develop. Ross Cockrell was a good get for them and hopefully he can remain a solid 2 or 3 corner. If they can resign Blake and Gay and Golson can get better as the year goes on they're in solid shape. Mike Mitchell has a good season and it usually takes guys a year to get comfortable in this defense. Took Ryan Clark till year 3 honestly because of his sickle cell situation in 2007, but once he was healthy in 2008 it was on and poppin. The spot people need to be focused on more than any other is that strong safety position. The Steelers want to go to more cover 2 under Keith Butler and Tomlin, and now that there's no Polamalu or LeBeau it makes sense, BUT they'd be better off getting a top end strong safety and at least having the option to still play more cover 3 when needed. If you play cover 2 more then you better hope Shazier stays healthy because he then becomes the rover in that defense.

You say guys take time to develop yet Cockrell was a FA signing who came in and clearly made the pass D better when he was on the field in only his first year with the team and only his 2nd year in the league.

I wasn't so much upset with Blake being out there as it was leaving guys like Cockrell and Boykin on the bench because it was obvious to me and many other people on here that they are superior players to Blake. The defense played better when Cockrell was in for Blake...not just once, but every single time the change was made for at least 4-5 games in a row. If Blake was the best option we had and the guys behind him made even more mistakes then I would be all for Blake being in there, but in fact, it was the opposite. It took Gay going to Arizona for him to "fully develop" because yes, he was terrible for the Steelers previously, hence why he was let go to begin with. If a guy hasn't fully developed yet, which you claim for Blake, that's what practice is for, not when the season is on the line...you play the better player no matter what in any situation as long as the team hasn't been mathematically eliminated from the playoffs.

I agree with you that Blake isn't AS BAD as this board makes him out to be...it's more about expressing frustration with the fact he played ahead of someone who is better than him, which no one really understood why. I'm all for bringing him back as a cheap and experienced 4th or 5th option, but he should not be a starter in this league. He is small, can't tackle, leaves giant cushions and gets burnt deep. But it's ok, he will have a pick or two here and there...don't mind all that other stuff he doesn't do well.

 

[Litos]

Here is the thing. The Steelers in the last 20+ years have had a very obvious philosophy with their secondary. They play their corners in this system on the edges like they play their safeties in space. They want run and hit guys. They see no reason to draft 1st round corners to play in this defense unless they're drafting in the top 15, top 10 really. Honestly, with a top 10 pick they would probably never go corner either. They value other positions in the 1st round way more. Unlike a lot of people on this board I like Antwon Blake and I think he is a Steelers type corner and if he can improve his footwork he can start and produce consistently. This was really his first year starting. He's physical and he makes plays. It's amazing to me that people who watch this team for years can't figure out why the coaching staff likes Blake. They are the same people who bitched about William Gay for years. Guys take time to develop. Ross Cockrell was a good get for them and hopefully he can remain a solid 2 or 3 corner. If they can resign Blake and Gay and Golson can get better as the year goes on they're in solid shape. Mike Mitchell has a good season and it usually takes guys a year to get comfortable in this defense. Took Ryan Clark till year 3 honestly because of his sickle cell situation in 2007, but once he was healthy in 2008 it was on and poppin. The spot people need to be focused on more than any other is that strong safety position. The Steelers want to go to more cover 2 under Keith Butler and Tomlin, and now that there's no Polamalu or LeBeau it makes sense, BUT they'd be better off getting a top end strong safety and at least having the option to still play more cover 3 when needed. If you play cover 2 more then you better hope Shazier stays healthy because he then becomes the rover in that defense.

I like him as a 4th/5th CB, he has good hands and Tries to be physical, I don't know if it was a hand injury or what but his tackling was atrocious, there's no better word to describe it, he launched himself with the shoulder to try to make the tackle and I saw him whiff enough times to make me want to throw the remote at the TV. If he isn't reliable after the catch what good can he be in the Steelers scheme where he is always ten or more yards away from the WR?

 

[Stryker]

Blake has terrible footwork. That is why I can't stand Blake. His poor footwork was a liability that made him trip, stumble, fall, or take the wrong step, to get beaten by any WR with talent. I don't mind his size, I don't mind him playing the ball aggressively, and making splash plays. His splash plays became fewer as his mistakes grew as the season progressed. This is because other teams scouted Blake, saw his poor footwork, and attacked him with double moves, crosses, and attacking his press aggressively.

I think his negatives are too much to overcome for him to be a consistently successful DB in this league.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

It seems like the Steelers get enamored in each draft looking for a specific trait: one year it's guys that were team captains, the next year it's SPARC scores and the next turnovers created.

While these are all good traits to possess it seems it skews are board in a certain direction rather than going in with a defined strategy of what we really need to put us in the best position to win next years SB.

The secondary definitely needs a taller rangy CB for match ups, a pass rusher, DL depth and some OL help...HERE WE GO STEELERS!!! Let's get this done

 

[21STEELERS21]

The main issue with JJ is he is playing like a 3rd round pick rather than a 1. And AB plays like the 1st overall and was
a 6th. You win some and you lose some. Doesn't seem like whining about JJ for 5 years is worth it.

 

[SteelerFan448]

when have we since drafting Chad Scott, skipped on a top notch CB in the draft in round 1?

Desmond Trufant in 2013.

 

[F83]

Mistakes in the secondary:
1. holding on to taylor too long while letting Lewis walk.
2. Trading up for shamarko thomas then not even trying to play him till we had few other options.
3. Signing Cortez to outside starter money based on his slot play, then forcing him out there and destroying his confidence to the point he cant even play slot...
4. Antwon Blake. Everything about him for 2 seasons now..
5. Trading for boykin then using him 25% of the time despite great positional play and solid playmaking and tackling.

6. Leaving golden on the bench over the now slow will allen.
7. Drafting Dri archer over Cockrell
8. Taking 2 Cbs and a safety in the draft... And not seeing anything out of any of them all year long.

9.Going into the year with the group we had and not at least trying to bring anyone in

1 Agree
2 agree but he has shown he has to many mental lapses, I think both lake and MT have seen a trend in practice and in pre season, that they could'nt trust him, but as bad as Mitchell was last year, they could of played troy at fs and at times Thomas at SS.
3 Premature signing has the body of ideal zone CB back makes to many mental mistakes, like another Big Cb Stanley Bean Baptise who was the year drafted the same year as Shazier was taken in rnd 2 and fell out of favor by the mess rob ryan created on the D in the big Easy, Cortez hopefully , takes a pay cut and can push to start or at least play in the nickel.
4 Can make plays but does not have the height to cover guys like AJ or any 6"2 or taller starter. is a pure slot CB can only be a successful starter in a Tampa 2.
5 Fully agree
6 Allen was good vs the run, and on the Snake blitz, Golden, is still a bit raw but should see more PT next year.
7 The player that should have been taken over Dri was NT Justin Ellis who has a prototype NT body 6"2 roughly 340. Something we miss severely since Casey, Mclendon has got thicker but is better suited for a 4-3, gets pushed around to easy by strong C's.
8 Golsen was on IR and Grant is too raw, that Cockroll overtook him and came out of no where and by late season when Boykin was finally being used it showed Grant would not see the field this year and there is talk of him to S next year.

 

[SteelerinMD]

How is Golson going to be a FA?

 

[SteelerSask2]

The main issue with JJ is he is playing like a 3rd round pick rather than a 1. And AB plays like the 1st overall and was
a 6th. You win some and you lose some. Doesn't seem like whining about JJ for 5 years is worth it.

If they cut him tomorrow (clap, clap show palms like a blackjack dealer) done and forgotten. They netted Bell in the same draft, its a push. But to keep trotting this stiff out season after season till it becomes no cost to cut him. C'mon that is just pure stubbornness. I just find it hard to believe that you couldn't convert say Shazier to an OLB and fill his spot with Williams or Spence with an entire off season to prepare. I'm not one of those morons who goes maybe we can convert a failed DE to an OG or a receiver to DB. But this should be more than doable. Shazier has more than the prerequisite speed, so if he had to add 10 lbs or something big friggen deal. Then the whole offseason to understand his role. You need a great player at ROLB. JJ isn't even good.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Hey Rooney -

 

[Coach]

Coach, look Jarvis, at this point, isnt a bad player at all. He was one of the better players in the playoffs for us... Now he was a bad pick, inasmuch as one would like a pick that high to have a higher upside, a more immediate impact, and not be splitting time in key situations, but Coming from a guy who has often critiqued Jarvis, its not factual to say heis still a bad player.. He plays the run well now and isnt a liability incoverage and gets some pressure on the qb... That is solid....

Madinsomniac,

I don't want to sound disrespectful at all, but out of curiosity which starting players on defense is Jones better than? Blake and that's it.

In fact, some backup players at linebacker are better than Jarvis. Harrison, for one. Spence is a solid reserve man who as a starter I think is better than Jones.

 

[Litos]

If they cut him tomorrow (clap, clap show palms like a blackjack dealer) done and forgotten. They netted Bell in the same draft, its a push. But to keep trotting this stiff out season after season till it becomes no cost to cut him. C'mon that is just pure stubbornness. I just find it hard to believe that you couldn't convert say Shazier to an OLB and fill his spot with Williams or Spence with an entire off season to prepare. I'm not one of those morons who goes maybe we can convert a failed DE to an OG or a receiver to DB. But this should be more than doable. Shazier has more than the prerequisite speed, so if he had to add 10 lbs or something big friggen deal. Then the whole offseason to understand his role. You need a great player at ROLB. JJ isn't even good.

shazier doesn't have the strength to play OLB constantly, you'd kill him

 

[antdrewjosh]

Shazier is not a OLB.

 

[Coryea]

Desmond Trufant in 2013.

Good call, that would've been 16 years since we used a top pick on a CB, so pretty much where we picked every year there wasn't any value at CB when we picked.
Kind of like when everyone bitched about Cowher not having a Franchise QB in the 90's, if you go back and look at those drafts there were no franchise QB's there when we drafted.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Good call, that would've been 16 years since we used a top pick on a CB, so pretty much where we picked every year there wasn't any value at CB when we picked.
Kind of like when everyone bitched about Cowher not having a Franchise QB in the 90's, if you go back and look at those drafts there were no franchise QB's there when we drafted.

I was on board with Jones until we saw his numbers as he went through the draft process. Trufant was a guy I know a lot liked, but Hopkins was my guy. Either way, you can chalk up the 2013 draft to the message board GMs...at least the first round of the draft.

 

[obxsteeler]

Good call, that would've been 16 years since we used a top pick on a CB, so pretty much where we picked every year there wasn't any value at CB when we picked.
Kind of like when everyone bitched about Cowher not having a Franchise QB in the 90's, if you go back and look at those drafts there were no franchise QB's there when we drafted.

Just to nit-pick like everyone else I do think both Brees and Brady were there.

 

[Coryea]

Just to nit-pick like everyone else I do think both Brees and Brady were there.

I don't count Brady because he wasn't a highly rated player that we passed on, every team passed on him multiple times. I agree with Brees, but he went as the first pick in round 2, we had the number 8 pick I believe that year, so it's not like we passed on a guy with a top 10 grade.

 

[SteelerSask2]

Shazier is not a OLB.

You can add strength. You cannot add speed. You guys really think JJ is stronger than Shazier?

 

[ark steel]

Just to nit-pick like everyone else I do think both Brees and Brady were there.

and with some of the defenses he had, a franchise QB was not needed to win the SB. He did get there with O'Donnell but lost the game. I still maintain that Ben was, essentially, forced on him, btw.

QB's in the Super Bowl during Cowher's tenure. They haven't all been Franchise QB's. At least, eight over that timeline are not. I don't consider McNair, O'Donnell or Bledsoe to "franchise QB, so I'd argue that there have been 10 in the dance that were not "franchise".

1993 Aikman/Kelly
1994 Aikman/Kelly
1995 Young/Humphries
1996 Aikman/O'Donnell
1997 Favre/Bledsloe
1998 Elway/Favre
1988 Elway/Chandler
2000 Warner/McNair
2001 Dilfer/Collins
2002 Brady/Warner
2003 Johnson/Gannon
2004 Brady/Delholme
2005 Brady/McNabb