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Religion of Peace question

Steeltime

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Hindsight is 20/20. I think George W. Bush and his administration had their reasons to make that decision. Not sure why some are criticizing him at this point, this far down the line. But if people want to be pissed off at Bush for making that call, I understand.

"In 2008 George W. Bush signed the U.S.–Iraq Status of Forces Agreement. It included a deadline of 31 December 2011, before which "all the United States Forces shall withdraw from all Iraqi territory".

You are incorrect. The status of forces agreement was to be re-negotiated once a new President took office in 2009. However, Obama ****** up the process, even after Iraq had agreed to 10,000 U.S. forces remaining in the country after 2011.

Negotiations between the U.S. and Iraq for a new SOFA began in fall 2010. There were late-night meetings at the fortified compound of then Iraqi president, Jalal Talabani, and in video conferences between Baghdad and Washington. In June 2011, diplomats and Iraqi officials said that President Obama had told Prime Minister Maliki that he was prepared to leave up to 10,000 soldiers to continue training and equipping the Iraqi Security Forces (ISF). Mr. Maliki agreed, but said he needed time to line up political allies. Eventually, he gained authorization to continue talks with the U.S. on keeping troops in Iraq.

In August 2011, after debates between the Pentagon, the State Department and the White House, the U.S. settled on the 3,000 to 5,000 troop number. An American official said intelligence assessments stated that Iraq was not at great risk of slipping into chaos in the absence of American forces, which was a factor in the decision.

In October 2011, American officials pressed Iraqi leadership to meet again at President Talabani’s compound to discuss the issue. This time the U.S. asked Iraq to take a stand on the question of immunity for troops, hoping to remove what had always been the biggest challenge. However, they misread Iraqi politics and the Iraqi public. Having watched the Arab Spring sweep across the region and still haunted by the traumas of this and previous wars, the Iraqis were unwilling to accept anything that infringed on their sovereignty.

Iraqi leadership picked up on that sentiment quickly. As a result, they publicly said they would not support legal immunity for any American troops. Some American officials have privately said that pushing for that meeting — in essence forcing the Iraqis to take a public stand on such a controversial matter before working out the politics of presenting it to their constituents and to Parliament — was a severe tactical mistake that ended any possibility of keeping American troops past December 2011
.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S.–...2011_decision_to_withdraw_all_American_forces

When Obama took office in January 2009, he inherited a plan that President George W. Bush forged in 2008 with then-Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki. That Status of Forces Agreement called for the withdrawal of all American troops by the end of 2011. It was widely assumed a new plan would be negotiated after the 2008 version expired in 2011. There were no stipulations about a specific number of American military personnel to be left behind.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...refused-sign-plan-place-leave-10000-troops-i/

I get that you want to believe Obama when the **** hit the fan in the Middle East, and Bammy turned to his tried-and-true excuse - blame Bush. However, the fact of the matter is that both Iraq and the United States believed that the U.S. would leave troops in Iraq, as they did in Germany, and Japan, and Korea.

There is one, and only one, reason why those troops were not in Iraq to prevent ISIS from capturing cities, stealing oil, selling it, taking captives, etc. and that reason is Obama.
 

Tibs

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Steeltime, I'm not blaming Bush, just pointing out that provisions were in place before Obama for an exit from Iraq. Sure, Obama could have re-upped for US troops to stay indefinitely. I don't happen to agree with the hawkish neo-con view that US troops should be singularly taking on the world's problems. We've lost over 4,000 troops since the 2003 in Iraq. Should we have a leading role in military ops? Yes. But ISIL/ISIS is a threat to all the countries in the region, spread out far into Syria up to the border with Turkey (NATO member). Obviously a threat to Israel, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia. With supposed bases now in Bosnia, they're right on the edge of the EU, a threat to mainland Europe. To me this is needs to be a NATO operation, a true coalition of many countries adding their fighting forces, that needs to take on this threat. Not because the US military is not capable of going alone. Because of the inevitable sacrifice of men and women. There should be a shared, common bond between like-minded nations fighting for a more secure world. The onus should not always be on US servicemen, and their families - and US taxpayers! - to resolve these threats on the other side of the planet. Planting US troops in the middle of the minefield that is the middle east gives other countries an easy out...and no motivation...to join the battle. So I am no dove when it comes to resolving this - and other - conflicts. I just want it done under different terms than what the usual GOP, neo-con Rumsfeld/Cheney methodology has called for over the years.


isis-map-december.jpg
 
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Sarge

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Why, what's the official protocol for lowering flags at the White House? Is it 12 hours after a national tragedy? 24? 48? 72? One week, two weeks? Do you know? I don't. The fact that right wingers jumped all over this a day ago means jack ****. The fact is the flag was lowered, as it should be.

It is obvious you have never served, or you might understand just what that honor means.
 

Tibs

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It is obvious you have never served, or you might understand just what that honor means.

You are correct that I haven't served in the military. You are incorrect to suggest that I don't understand what that honor means, the lowering of the flag, or that I somehow don't appreciate the sacrifice our servicemen and women make for us citizens. But who cares, feel free to keep taking pot shots at me...

Rest in peace to all the servicemen killed. A tragic and sad moment for the country and for the families that lost loved ones.

The fact is the flag was lowered, as it should be.

RIP to the servicemen, condolences to their families.
 
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Yinzerlyn

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Tibs

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Tibs- it's THIS kind of thing that gets us upset. And the timeline is NOT an exaggeration.
Be upset. Nobody is going to keep you from being upset. I too am upset, that it took as long as it did. In the end, I'm glad the flags were lowered to show respect. Maybe I don't see the point in letting this become some gigantic, huge deal. The big deal to me is that the murders took place in the first place, on home soil, at a military base. That's the tragedy here and what I think the focus should be on. Not necessarily on the timing of the lowering of the flag. But I do understand why this has pissed off a lot of people, particularly those that already loathe this president to begin with.
 
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Yinzerlyn

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Tibs

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Touching on an earlier post calling for more regional (& NATO) involvement, this could be significant.

Turkey to let anti-Isis coalition use air base after soldier's death
http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...led-in-clashes-with-isis-across-syrian-border

Turkey has agreed to let the US-led coalition against Isis use the country’s Incirlik air base after one Turkish soldier was killed and two were injured in what appeared to be cross-border clashes with the terror group.

The country had previously refused to let the US-led coalition use the military facility but the attack on Turkish personnel – with shots fired across the border from Syria into the southern province of Kilis – have appeared to prompt a change of heart.

Local media said Turkey also scrambled its own F-16 fighter jets from their base in Diyarbakir to the Syrian border after the attack which appeared to signal the first armed confrontation between the country’s forces and Isis.

Turkey’s military said in a statement that a border unit came under fire at 1.30pm by five Isis militants using a rocket launcher and Kalashnikov rifles. The armed forces said the unit seized the weapons and fired on the attackers, killing one and destroying three Isis vehicles.

I've always felt the most secure point for us to fight this conflict is from the north, based out of Turkey, as opposed to doing it from within Iraq. If Turkey gets pulled into this, it could be a game-changer. It suddenly becomes a NATO issue front and center. With countries like Jordan & Saudi Arabia providing assistance from the flank, this may be a good time as any to push ISIS back into the hellhole they crawled out of. And yes, believe it or not, even our sworn enemies Syria & Iran would be on our side in a blow-back against ISIS.

I'm no warmonger, but I hope ISIS is dumb enough to continue provoking Turkey. It could be the best thing to happen to move the needle in the right direction in this conflict.
 
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Spike

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Oh goody, they're finally letting us fly out of our own airbase - how much will this cost us, beside cutting off the Kurds?


Obama Agrees to Secure the Border... Turkey's Border


Obama and Turkish President Tayyip Erdogan agreed in a telephone call on Wednesday to work together to "stem the flow of foreign fighters and secure Turkey's border with Syria," the White House said in a statement.

Thousands of foreign fighters have crossed through Turkey, a NATO member, to join Islamic State over the past few years.

They agreed to "stem the flow of foreign fighters"... that's a tacit admission that securing the border does indeed help protect a country from terrorists.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/23/us-mideast-crisis-usa-turkey-idUSKCN0PW2MI20150723
 

deljzc

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We should have invaded Iraq from Turkey in 2003. That was a big mistake we didn't come at them from the north.

The most extremist places that became thorns in our side after the initial combat took place were from there: Mosul, Falluja, Ramadi, the "Sunni Triangle". And all of those should have been strongly held with military personnel early in the invasion.

That could have only happened with a three prong attack: From Kuwait (the largest force) between the Tigris/Euphrates River towards Baghdad, from Syria down the Euphrates River towards Baghdad and from Turkey down the Tigris River towards Baghdad.

The whole country is only populated around those rivers. When we came from the south, everyone just fled up the rivers away from us.
 

Superman

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another question, and I've tried finding the answer...

when was the last time Iran invaded another country? seems to be 200 years or so ago. Which begs the question, why do they need nuclear weaponry?
 

IndySteel

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another question, and I've tried finding the answer...

when was the last time Iran invaded another country? seems to be 200 years or so ago. Which begs the question, why do they need nuclear weaponry?

Because they want to bomb the **** out of Israel.
 

Spike

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We should have invaded Iraq from Turkey in 2003. That was a big mistake we didn't come at them from the north..

That's why I still hate turkey, they wouldn't let us fly over their territory
 
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Superman

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Chicoman

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Islam is the political ideology of pig ****. I detest it.

Amen to this they are ******* savages! If you don't fully embrace Islam you are considered an INFIDEL and it is ok to kill you. This is all muslim people folks....don't buy into the **** that they are nice people because they are not!

They are the scum of the Earth and need to be sent to hell!!!
 

Spike

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Kerry 'Death to the Jews' Warns Israel: Strike on Iran Would Be ‘Enormous Mistake’

Less than a day after indicating in a Senate hearing that the Iran nuclear deal would have the US defend Iran from Israel, US Secretary of State John Kerry warned Israel on Friday that a unilateral strike on Iran’s covert nuclear program would be a “huge mistake.”

Appearing on the NBC “Today” TV show, Kerry was asked if the Iran nuclear deal sealed last Tuesday would make it more likely that Israel will either physically strike Iran’s nuclear facilities, or else launch a cyber attack against them.

“That’d be an enormous mistake, a huge mistake with grave consequences for Israel and for the region, and I don’t think it’s necessary,” Kerry answered in an ominous answer.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/07/24/us-iran-nuclear-kerry-idUSKCN0PY1AQ20150724
 

hamster

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Oh goody, they're finally letting us fly out of our own airbase - how much will this cost us, beside cutting off the Kurds?

Spike is a wise man. It is all about fear of the Kurds gaining autonomy, and Turkey losing it's southern Kurdish provinces..
 

Spike

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Spike is a wise man. It is all about fear of the Kurds gaining autonomy, and Turkey losing it's southern Kurdish provinces..

jus like I perdicted


Turkey Expands Crackdown on Islamic State, Targets Kurds Too

Turkey carried out a second wave of airstrikes and broadened its targets to include Kurdish rebels as well as Islamic State, while police arrested militants from both groups in nationwide raids.

F-16 warplanes took off late Friday to bomb Islamic State positions, according to NTV and other local media, after carrying out initial strikes early the same day. Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq were also hit by airstrikes, according to the Turkish media and the Iraqi Kurdish news agency Rudaw

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rackdown-on-islamic-state-to-target-kurds-too
 

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228191_207089385981067_5876370_n.jpg


NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg just announced that the North Atlantic Council, which includes the ambassadors of all 28 NATO Allies, will meet on Tuesday 28 July, following a request by ‪#‎Turkey‬ to hold consultations under article 4 of NATO's founding Washington Treaty.

Under article 4 of the Treaty, any Ally can request consultations whenever, in the opinion of any of them, their territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened.

Turkey requested the meeting in view of the seriousness of the situation after the heinous terrorist attacks in recent days, and also to inform Allies of the measures it is taking. NATO Allies follow developments very closely and stand in solidarity with Turkey.

More on article 4: http://goo.gl/k9cmMi
 

hamster

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228191_207089385981067_5876370_n.jpg


NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg just announced that the North Atlantic Council, which includes the ambassadors of all 28 NATO Allies, will meet on Tuesday 28 July, following a request by ‪#‎Turkey‬ to hold consultations under article 4 of NATO's founding Washington Treaty.

Under article 4 of the Treaty, any Ally can request consultations whenever, in the opinion of any of them, their territorial integrity, political independence or security is threatened.

Turkey requested the meeting in view of the seriousness of the situation after the heinous terrorist attacks in recent days, and also to inform Allies of the measures it is taking. NATO Allies follow developments very closely and stand in solidarity with Turkey.

More on article 4: http://goo.gl/k9cmMi

How much you wanna bet they claim that the Kurds are more threatening than ISIS?
 
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