Pro Football focus rates the Steelers

[Coach]

Landon Collins 13
Eric Weddle 13
Reggie Nelson 12
Jimmy ward 12
Ron Parker 12
Bradley Mcdougald 10
Earl Thomas 10
Byron Jones 10
Mike Mitchell and 9 others with 9
Keanu neal(rookie) and 4 others including Kam Chamcellor with 8
Devin McCourty and 6 others with 7
Karl Joseph(rookie) and 7 others with 6
Sean Davis and 17 others inclucing Eric Reid and Ladarious Webb with 5

Thats all Safeties

Okay. So 31 other safeties have more Passes defended and Davis is tied with 17 others. The point was proven.

How many Safeties have more interceptions? My guess is 20 or more as Davis has ZERO

How many more safeties have more sacks? My guess is a good amount. Davis has ZERO.

So you see Antdrewjosh, Davis rates poorly with NFL data. Last, last and last in splash plays.

What if there is yardage surrendered data?! Before I comment I'll ask you this question.

If I can produce data that shows Davis is among the leaders of yardage given up would your objective reasoning and intellectual honesty allow you to come to a conclusion that Davis is a below average NFL starter? Essentially you will be agreeing with me.

For me, it a slam dunk as the splash plays are not there at all to offset giving up a lot of yards.

I am curious to your reply.

 

[Coach]

You yourself can’t even explain the grading process that PFF uses. Which is why you are infatuated with it. You can’t explain it, but you agree with it.

I’ll repost the article about PFF since you seem to be ignoring my posts (which is fine, IDC) but you seem to ignore the professional masses in regard how that site actually grades players....but just keep pimping subjective sources of information.

Quote Originally Posted by Coach:

“Wanna use 3rd party data? Okay Ike, there are 64 starting safeties in the NFL. Pro Football focus has Davis at # 58 among safeties.”

My reply to your 3rd party data:

Its been renowned that its (PFF) analytics process is purely subjective in assessment of the raw numbers. Excerpt from a Boston Herald article a few years ago regarding the emergence of PFF and the legitimacy of their facts:

" ...this is not taking actual numbers and using them to come up with new stats to use in analytics. This is not taking passes complete and passes attempted and breaking it down into the various lengths of throws and spots on the field. This is sitting down in front of the monitor, forming an opinion and making up their own stats and advanced formulas based on stats garnered from what they think is happening on each play."

The full article.... https://bostonsportsmedia.com/2014/0...indly-trusted/

I encourage you to read it. But I know you won’t. Your ego prevents you. So other posters read the article and come to your own reasoning. Football Outsiders does a good job of giving objective statistics via their DVOA and DYAR formulas for defense and a ton of offensive formulas as well. All going back to 1986.

Yeah they are partnered with ESPN, but they are independent with their published works.

PFF is not, and not staffed by football experts.


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I'm generally not a fan of the Boston Sports news, but I'll throw you a bone. There are numerous football magazine that rate players some which use scouts data.. Do any one of them think Davis is good? I have seen none. What does that tell you?

Secondarily do you not agree that Pro football focus rating of players tends to have the best ones at the top, and the worst ones at the bottom? Be honest now...because they do. There is a correlation.

Lastly unless you fully understand how they formulate the data, who are you to take a shot at it?

 

[antdrewjosh]

Okay. So 31 other safeties have more Passes defended and Davis is tied with 17 others. The point was proven.

How many Safeties have more interceptions? My guess is 20 or more as Davis has ZERO

How many more safeties have more sacks? My guess is a good amount. Davis has ZERO.

So you see Antdrewjosh, Davis rates poorly with NFL data. Last, last and last in splash plays.

What if there is yardage surrendered data?! Before I comment I'll ask you this question.

If I can produce data that shows Davis is among the leaders of yardage given up would your objective reasoning and intellectual honesty allow you to come to a conclusion that Davis is a below average NFL starter? Essentially you will be agreeing with me.

For me, it a slam dunk as the splash plays are not there at all to offset giving up a lot of yards.

I am curious to your reply.

Davis 1int 1fr 5pd 1int 54 tackles 15 assisted 1.5 sacks
Kam Chancellor 2 int 1ff 0 sacks 8 pd 47 tackles 34 assisted

One was a rookie and the other in the league since 2010

I will let you rely on stats only. Sometimes you have to actually watch a game to see the total impact..

 

[Ike Kelly]

I'm generally not a fan of the Boston Sports news, but I'll throw you a bone. There are numerous football magazine that rate players some which use scouts data.. Do any one of them think Davis is good? I have seen none. What does that tell you?

Secondarily do you not agree that Pro football focus rating of players tends to have the best ones at the top, and the worst ones at the bottom? Be honest now...because they do. There is a correlation.

Lastly unless you fully understand how they formulate the data, who are you to take a shot at it?

I seriously think you have a reading comprehension problem. With no disrespect given. Do you not read entirely what is posted?. I explained the formula method PFF uses is based upon the subjective observation of what THEY think a player should have done. That means the statistics generated are collated by an opinion of the staff examiner, not by the actual statistical data collected. For example, if a DB on a press coverage to X receiver is successful in bumping his target off his pass/blocking route, but the play goes to the opposite field, is that classified as a negative play, positive play or discarded? What if the play itself required the X receiver to draw his opposite away from the play? How is that tabulated? Obviously their formula is proprietary, but their method has been heavily criticized because it doesn't follow analytics based methodology.

Other analytics engine based statisticians while having their own proprietary formulas, still follow the method based on the raw data analysis and not an opinion of whether the data is or is not to be used.

PFF is providing evaluation of their interpretation of the data, when none is needed. The only thing required in analytics is what the data indicates. There is no subjective reasoning involved. The formulas used by PFF is subjective because they are opinion based. Therefore I don't trust their rankings....as does many professional statisticians.

You opine you haven't seen football "magazines" that rate Davis as good? Cite these "magazines", like they even matter. You have been given some stats by Antdrew. Don't know where they came from (NFL.com?) but Kam Chancellor doesn't meet your "splash play criteria". So he is overrated obviously.

For you to tell me if I don't understand the data why should I shoot it down, just reinforces you don't know yourself how PFF comes up with their findings, but agrees with them anyway. I am willing to believe you would write their findings off entirely if they were to indicate Davis being a top 10 or even 20 rated DB. Because it goes against your agenda.



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[Coach]

I seriously think you have a reading comprehension problem. With no disrespect given. Do you not read entirely what is posted?. I explained the formula method PFF uses is based upon the subjective observation of what THEY think a player should have done. That means the statistics generated are collated by an opinion of the staff examiner, not by the actual statistical data collected. For example, if a DB on a press coverage to X receiver is successful in bumping his target off his pass/blocking route, but the play goes to the opposite field, is that classified as a negative play, positive play or discarded? What if the play itself required the X receiver to draw his opposite away from the play? How is that tabulated? Obviously their formula is proprietary, but their method has been heavily criticized because it doesn't follow analytics based methodology.

Other analytics engine based statisticians while having their own proprietary formulas, still follow the method based on the raw data analysis and not an opinion of whether the data is or is not to be used.

PFF is providing evaluation of their interpretation of the data, when none is needed. The only thing required in analytics is what the data indicates. There is no subjective reasoning involved. The formulas used by PFF is subjective because they are opinion based. Therefore I don't trust their rankings....as does many professional statisticians.

You opine you haven't seen football "magazines" that rate Davis as good? Cite these "magazines", like they even matter. You have been given some stats by Antdrew. Don't know where they came from (NFL.com?) but Kam Chancellor doesn't meet your "splash play criteria". So he is overrated obviously.

For you to tell me if I don't understand the data why should I shoot it down, just reinforces you don't know yourself how PFF comes up with their findings, but agrees with them anyway. I am willing to believe you would write their findings off entirely if they were to indicate Davis being a top 10 or even 20 rated DB. Because it goes against your agenda.



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And I seriously think your a politician' spin man or should become one. Look--Rating players is what? SUBJECTIVE. So how come any who does them in football doesn't think much of Sean Davis and NFL stats which I post say he's about as like to intercept a pass as an old man getting a woody at age 90?

I don't care which 3rd party data we use. They all same the same thing. Davis is either not good enough to rate among the top players in various football magazines ( Lindy's, Athlon's, Pro Football Weekly or whatever they call themselves these days, etc... ) or not among the top 50 by a 3rd party rating system that rates them all. If you want to look silly and attempt to dismiss the rating system, It won't be that hard to show you the top players seems to get the same accolades from various sources. I actually look at them? Do you, or are you just talking out of your rear end?

There is something called a consensus, and a correlation my myopic friend and they agree with me, not you.

Continue on trying to muddy the waters, and please tell me when find a 3rd party says otherwise on Davis as that's the only chance you have to score points on this topic

 

[Coach]

Okay. So 31 other safeties have more Passes defended and Davis is tied with 17 others. The point was proven.

How many Safeties have more interceptions? My guess is 20 or more as Davis has ZERO

How many more safeties have more sacks? My guess is a good amount. Davis has ZERO.

So you see Antdrewjosh, Davis rates poorly with NFL data. Last, last and last in splash plays.

What if there is yardage surrendered data?! Before I comment I'll ask you this question.

If I can produce data that shows Davis is among the leaders of yardage given up would your objective reasoning and intellectual honesty allow you to come to a conclusion that Davis is a below average NFL starter? Essentially you will be agreeing with me.

For me, it a slam dunk as the splash plays are not there at all to offset giving up a lot of yards.

I am curious to your reply.

Davis 1int 1fr 5pd 1int 54 tackles 15 assisted 1.5 sacks
Kam Chancellor 2 int 1ff 0 sacks 8 pd 47 tackles 34 assisted

One was a rookie and the other in the league since 2010

I will let you rely on stats only. Sometimes you have to actually watch a game to see the total impact..

I asked you a question and put in in bold type. Once again, do you care to reply to it?

Kam Chancellor > Sean Davis.

Chancellor has 14 career interceptions and 11 forced fumbles. Wanna compare that to Davis? We can use Davis career data to date and come up with what it looks like if he played the same amount of seasons. Hint, you'll lose again.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Okay. So 31 other safeties have more Passes defended and Davis is tied with 17 others. The point was proven.

How many Safeties have more interceptions? My guess is 20 or more as Davis has ZERO

How many more safeties have more sacks? My guess is a good amount. Davis has ZERO.

So you see Antdrewjosh, Davis rates poorly with NFL data. Last, last and last in splash plays.

What if there is yardage surrendered data?! Before I comment I'll ask you this question.

If I can produce data that shows Davis is among the leaders of yardage given up would your objective reasoning and intellectual honesty allow you to come to a conclusion that Davis is a below average NFL starter? Essentially you will be agreeing with me.

For me, it a slam dunk as the splash plays are not there at all to offset giving up a lot of yards.

I am curious to your reply.




I asked you a question and put in in bold type. Once again, do you care to reply to it?

Kam Chancellor > Sean Davis.

Chancellor has 14 career interceptions and 11 forced fumbles. Wanna compare that to Davis? We can use Davis career data to date and come up with what it looks like if he played the same amount of seasons. Hint, you'll lose again.

Sean Davis has played one year..Kam chancellor has played since 2010.

I used last year where you said Davis didnt have a good year..his stats arent far off from Chancellor. Chancellor is considered one of the better safeties in the league.. and for the Record Davis had 1.5 sacks last year. You choose to read it as 31 more safeties. I choose to read it as 13 was the high. He had 5 not bad to me as a rookie. I would never agree with you because stats only tell half the story. Gerry Dulac Tunch Ilkin all just called him a great player and a big part of the defense literally just a second ago on the radio. Javon Hargrave stats arent that impressive but he's definitely an impact player. Like i said over and over start watching the games. Start watching without your agenda.

And do please post the stats for yards given up by Davis. Would love to see that especially since we all know we play zone majority of the time. Please post that

Ryan Clark career high in a steelers uniform for interceptions is three. 13 picks and 4 forced fumbles. Guess he wasnt a good player and important part of the defense either???

 

[antdrewjosh]

Not even mentioning that Davis played with a shoulder that needed surgery after the season.

http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...-sean-davis-played-rookie-season-torn-labrum/

 

[Ike Kelly]

And I seriously think your a politician' spin man or should become one. Look--Rating players is what? SUBJECTIVE. So how come any who does them in football doesn't think much of Sean Davis and NFL stats which I post say he's about as like to intercept a pass as an old man getting a woody at age 90?

I don't care which 3rd party data we use. They all same the same thing. Davis is either not good enough to rate among the top players in various football magazines ( Lindy's, Athlon's, Pro Football Weekly or whatever they call themselves these days, etc... ) or not among the top 50 by a 3rd party rating system that rates them all. If you want to look silly and attempt to dismiss the rating system, It won't be that hard to show you the top players seems to get the same accolades from various sources. I actually look at them? Do you, or are you just talking out of your rear end?

There is something called a consensus, and a correlation my myopic friend and they agree with me, not you.

Continue on trying to muddy the waters, and please tell me when find a 3rd party says otherwise on Davis as that's the only chance you have to score points on this topic

Hahahaha, typical response from someone who can’t comprehend logic. Listen Waldo, you cite the sources BESIDES PFF that matches your idiotic statement. All the 3rd party statisticians you keep saying do not rate Davis. And for the record, using Lindy’s, Athlons, or Walters is NOT analytical. If you had an ounce of brain power to use yourself you would know those are primarily draft guides, and their ranking systems are ADMITTEDLY subjective by those magazines publishers. If that is the data you are using to prove your point, go get some comp classes at your local community college. Because you lack the basic concept of data research.

I will ask you this question. What is your opinion of Joel Steed or Casey Hampton?


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[Stryker]

Isn't Davis playing Strong Safety? Shouldn't we be using tackles as a measurable stat? He'll have more than any free safety, so he's at worst the 32nd best tackling safety in the league.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Isn't Davis playing Strong Safety? Shouldn't we be using tackles as a measurable stat? He'll have more than any free safety, so he's at worst the 32nd best tackling safety in the league.

That has absolutely nothing to do with the "stats". Cut your **** Cope

 

[Ike Kelly]

Isn't Davis playing Strong Safety? Shouldn't we be using tackles as a measurable stat? He'll have more than any free safety, so he's at worst the 32nd best tackling safety in the league.

Coach doesn’t think that way, because it doesn’t fit his agenda.

However....of the 54 SS who have registered a stat line for tackles through week 8, Davis is ranked 7th with solo tackles (32) and 10th with combined (40) tackles (that’s solo and assists for those who lack reading comprehension)


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[ark steel]

The gist of the issue is whether you can trust the data you get. I don't have a lot of trust in PFF because I don't get tot see the raw numbers from which they get their grades. If you could see the raw numbers, you might be able to look at some games to see how each player played in that game versus that grade. Without that, you have to trust them.

As for the PD stat, it couild be way skewed. As an extreme example, a dude is targeted 50 times. Gives up 25 TD's and bats away the other 25. He will have 25 PD's. Meanwhile the awesome DB on the other side gets targeted 3 times and only bats away 1. Looks like 25 PD's to 1.....

 

[Spike]

The only one that matters - - signed Ben