Opinions on my hour long twitter debate with John Steigerwald,

[CharlesDavenport]

I would say you are not going to get total agreement. Give me one metric that would say he was a better passer. Not Quarterback. Passer.

Not playing the stats game. Different eras. You've watched Ben's games. If you think he throws a better ball and makes better decisions than Terry did in his prime, we will never agree. That goes for all yinz n yer Roethlisgoggles.

 

[Coryea]

Bradshaw did everything better than Ben, and in big games, a lot better.

John Steigerwald just logged on.

Bradshaw played great in the Super Bowls, but was inaccurate and a turnover machine, his number show that, and that's compared to the others in his era.

 

[SteelerSask2]

The reality of all these arguments is this, if you magically transported 1978 Lynn Swann to last seasons training camp with no change in his training and technique, he would be laughed off the field at St. Vincent's college. He would have no where near the explosion, route running techniques, hand placement etc. But that doesn't mean he didn't have more God Given Talent then anyone on this roster. I coached my son's grade nine ten football team at the same school I played at. Our '87-'88 team produced I believe 6 scholarship players and 2 pros. And many post secondary players. If you put my '87-'88 Senior team against these younger kids I coached last year my '88 team would get ****** slaughtered.

 

[Badcat]

Yeah, lets compare eras. I'd like to see Ben drop back and get clotheslined by Butkus or Deacon Jones. Or, have JuJu leveled on every play by Mel Blount or take a forearm to the back of the head by George Atkinson. Jordan Berry would need a coloring book and a puppy after getting choke slammed by Lambert. Players today may be bigger, faster, stronger...But they is SOFTER. Players today don't have the mental toughness to compete at that level of violence.

 

[SteelerSask2]

Yeah, lets compare eras. I'd like to see Ben drop back and get clotheslined by Butkus or Deacon Jones. Or, have JuJu leveled on every play by Mel Blount or take a forearm to the back of the head by George Atkinson. Jordan Berry would need a coloring book and a puppy after getting choke slammed by Lambert. Players today may be bigger, faster, stronger...But they is SOFTER. Players today don't have the mental toughness to compete at that level of violence.

Well Ben compares more favorably to old school players probably better than any QB in this era. Can you imagine Brady taking that abuse those guys did. Or even a guy like Brees who is pretty tough as nails, but small. Now the opposite side of it is a guy like Bush could not only run with the best receivers of that era, he could probably change directions just as quick and he can hit pretty ****** hard too. The violence of that era was cartoonish and stupid. But if you want to really put the destructiveness of the game at its high point it was probably Ben's first third of his career. Guys could really move and the equipment allowed for the reckless abandon. now the surgical/ medical technology and knowledge allowed those guys to continue when the 70's guys could not. But that was still the high point of dangerous play. In much the same way, 70's hockey looks ****** crazy now with swinging sticks and no face shield. It was really the era with Scott Stevens and those dudes where the punishment was off the charts.

 

[steelhurt]

These types of comparisons are so difficult for obvious reasons. Terry played in a different era for a coach who played ball control ram it down your throat type offense. Ben is playing in an era where it’s definitely pin ball type offense, throwing the ball 40-50 times a game and lighting up the scoreboard.
Rules now protect QBs but sure as hell didn’t when Terry played.
I think most of Terry’s ints came early on in his career before he had the likes of Swanny and Stallworth. Also calling his own plays has to count as well.
I’m just glad we had them both and will not pick one over the other.


I will add that Terry had more success in big games winning all four of his SBs and MVP twice. Ben’s best game was the win over the Cards and he probably should have gotten MVP. That GB super bowl Ben played s terrible first half and his two ints killed us in that game.
Terry also won league MVP where Ben has never come close.


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[SteelerSask2]

The other really telling tale of this whole thing is That beyond Terry playing with very arguably the greatest defense ever assembled he still also played with Swann, Stalworth, Harris and Webster. All in the HOF. Ben played with a top three defense of the era, they won in '05 with a no name UFA running back, One top Flight receiver and a first year very good TE. Then when they won in '08-'09 they had some offensive weapons and a horrifically bad offensive line. The only certified offensive HOF player he has played with is Jerome Bettis in the twilight of his career. Now Ward, Faneca and possibly Pouncey are definite candidates. Point being this: You put Ben Roethlisberger on the Browns out of the gate in '04, I'm very confident the fortunes of that franchise change. You put Terry Bradshaw on the Atlanta Falcons in the 70's, I'm pretty sure no one knows who Terry Bradshaw is.

 

[Coryea]

These types of comparisons are so difficult for obvious reasons. Terry played in a different era for a coach who played ball control ram it down your throat type offense. Ben is playing in an era where it’s definitely pin ball type offense, throwing the ball 40-50 times a game and lighting up the scoreboard.
Rules now protect QBs but sure as hell didn’t when Terry played.
I think most of Terry’s ints came early on in his career before he had the likes of Swanny and Stallworth. Also calling his own plays has to count as well.
I’m just glad we had them both and will not pick one over the other.


I will add that Terry had more success in big games winning all four of his SBs and MVP twice. Ben’s best game was the win over the Cards and he probably should have gotten MVP. That GB super bowl Ben played s terrible first half and his two ints killed us in that game.
Terry also won league MVP where Ben has never come close.


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Bradshaw threw 85 INTs from 1977 to 1980

 

[steelhurt]

They were airing it out a lot more in that time frame that’s for sure.
You guys need to appreciate what we had in these two eras. 6 SBs with both these two QBs, I’m cool with it.
Be a long dry spell now since Ben is at the end and we have no one waiting to take over. Hopefully he recovers and plays well enough these last two seasons but we still have Tomlin so not expecting much success as long as he’s here.


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[CharlesDavenport]

The reality of all these arguments is this, if you magically transported 1978 Lynn Swann to last seasons training camp with no change in his training and technique, he would be laughed off the field at St. Vincent's college. He would have no where near the explosion, route running techniques, hand placement etc. But that doesn't mean he didn't have more God Given Talent then anyone on this roster. I coached my son's grade nine ten football team at the same school I played at. Our '87-'88 team produced I believe 6 scholarship players and 2 pros. And many post secondary players. If you put my '87-'88 Senior team against these younger kids I coached last year my '88 team would get ****** slaughtered.

Did you watch our receivers last year? Do you think any of them could teach Swann anything about ball catching technique? LOL. You put those clowns on the field at training camp in the 70s and they get laughed off the field.

 

[Coryea]

They were airing it out a lot more in that time frame that’s for sure.
You guys need to appreciate what we had in these two eras. 6 SBs with both these two QBs, I’m cool with it.
Be a long dry spell now since Ben is at the end and we have no one waiting to take over. Hopefully he recovers and plays well enough these last two seasons but we still have Tomlin so not expecting much success as long as he’s here.


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That's what I hate most about these debates, alot of people ( not you) take it as, since I say Ben was better that means I think Bradshaw sucked

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[SteelerSask2]

Did you watch our receivers last year? Do you think any of them could teach Swann anything about ball catching technique? LOL. You put those clowns on the field at training camp in the 70s and they get laughed off the field.

Yes, I'm pretty sure 45 years of human performance evolution would teach Lynn Swann a **** of a lot about catching a football.If you transported any one of those receivers even the ones who are on the practice squad or those cut back 40 some years, the players at the camp would be like what the **** is this. The takeoff, the explosiveness. The ****** guys back then didn't even run a proper speed corner cut. The ability of a modern NFL receiver to fight press coverage would destroy one of those guys. And in other news Bruce Lee would get killed by any top UFC fighter in his weight class.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

you can't compare stats at all. The game has completely changed, Now 60% completion is a minimum standard. Back in the 70s it was 50%. They didn't have all these quick throws.

There was no Edelman running quick routes over the middle because he would have been knocked the **** out. DBs were allowed to hold WRs into the mid 70s. Pass rushers were allowed to club the OT in the head then try to murder the QB. The fields sucked too. Half the time it was a mud pit. Other times if was a sheet of ice.

Half these QBs couldn't play in the 70s. Tom Brady could not play in the 70s. I don't even think Brady could have survived the 90s.

I would say that more great QBs of the past could play today than vice versa. It was much much harder not only in terms of punishment but just completing passes was harder.

I do think Bradshaw would do well today. He was a 1st overall pick for a reason. He had great talent. Was he the sharpest? No, but Bret Favre was no rocket surgeon

 

[CoolieMan]

Yes, I'm pretty sure 45 years of human performance evolution would teach Lynn Swann a **** of a lot about catching a football.If you transported any one of those receivers even the ones who are on the practice squad or those cut back 40 some years, the players at the camp would be like what the **** is this. The takeoff, the explosiveness. The ****** guys back then didn't even run a proper speed corner cut. The ability of a modern NFL receiver to fight press coverage would destroy one of those guys. And in other news Bruce Lee would get killed by any top UFC fighter in his weight class.

Mel Blount would lock down ANY receiver you want to name. Let him play by the rules before the "Mel Blount" rule and the ******* today wouldn't make a catch

 

[CoolieMan]

That's what I hate most about these debates, alot of people ( not you) take it as, since I say Ben was better that means I think Bradshaw sucked

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so why do you think Bradshaw sucked???



I don't believe you think he sucked but I do believe you don't appreciate his skills. The times were different and offenses were different. He was way more likely to throw it deep than hit 10 quick slants or a 10 yard curl or out route.

The offenses are way different today given the freedoms the rule book gives them. Offense sells tickets and advertising.

 

[Gridiron]

There are a ton of garbage QBs thriving in todays NFL like Garner Minchew, Dak Prescott, Kirk Cousins Jared Goff etc yet Coryea says Bradshaw would have a hard time playing and being good today, LMFAO. Bradshaw had a cannon and was an athletic freak , held the national high school javelin record for decades, etc and was the best big game QB in NFL history, he would thrive today.

As for Ben and todays QB thriving back then no one knows as thy never played in an era where thy were not protected and did not endure the physical punishment on a weekly basis and their receivers have never been manhandled and blown up legally on hits over the middle.Younger posters stupidly and naively look at stats and blame the old QBs for all the INTs. Back then a receiver could be blown up 20 yards downfield and then the passer has thrown to the spot the receiver was supposed to be but alas he was knocked off the route with the QB not having any idea. The pass interference rule was rarely enforced back then, today it is thrown every time a politician lies.

 

[Badcat]

Well Ben compares more favorably to old school players probably better than any QB in this era. Can you imagine Brady taking that abuse those guys did. Or even a guy like Brees who is pretty tough as nails, but small. Now the opposite side of it is a guy like Bush could not only run with the best receivers of that era, he could probably change directions just as quick and he can hit pretty ****** hard too. The violence of that era was cartoonish and stupid. But if you want to really put the destructiveness of the game at its high point it was probably Ben's first third of his career. Guys could really move and the equipment allowed for the reckless abandon. now the surgical/ medical technology and knowledge allowed those guys to continue when the 70's guys could not. But that was still the high point of dangerous play. In much the same way, 70's hockey looks ****** crazy now with swinging sticks and no face shield. It was really the era with Scott Stevens and those dudes where the punishment was off the charts.

I miss those days. I hated Matt Barnaby until he pulled the Pens sweater over his head. lol

 

[Badcat]

Just one more thing to say to the younger posters on the board to better give you the mindset of playing football by us older folk.

Our Coaches were WW2 and Korean war veterans who would smoke cigarettes and spit tobacco during practice. They preached a term called a "slobber knocker" which by definition meant that you LEVELED your opponent with such force that snot and/or blood would be present on his face mask. At my school, Coaches handed out helmet stickers and you received a Skull and Crossbones sticker for a slobber knocker. I earned two my senior season, one of which was on special teams in which the dumb ******* left the game in an ambulance...and I love telling that story. I hit him so hard I barely felt resistance and I knew he was toast when I heard the crowd's reaction upon impact. Our Coaches weren't happy after loses but if you got beat physically on the football field, it was nothing compared to what practices were going to be like the following week.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Yes, I'm pretty sure 45 years of human performance evolution would teach Lynn Swann a **** of a lot about catching a football.If you transported any one of those receivers even the ones who are on the practice squad or those cut back 40 some years, the players at the camp would be like what the **** is this. The takeoff, the explosiveness. The ****** guys back then didn't even run a proper speed corner cut. The ability of a modern NFL receiver to fight press coverage would destroy one of those guys. And in other news Bruce Lee would get killed by any top UFC fighter in his weight class.

Nobody will argue improved athleticism, but you are delusional if you think today's receivers have better technique across the board. I'd argue that the players in general back then had more sound fundamentals, and today's are sloppy by comparison, depending more on that athleticism. I'd love to be in that classroom when our current linebackers are teaching the finer points, based on 45 years of human performance evolution, of how to be in position, defend a pass, and make a tackle to Jack Ham, Andy Russell, and Jack Lambert.

Human performance evolution? I think you mean the kids are bigger and faster these days. They are definitely not smarter or know techniques better. The team of the 70s was much more fundamentally sound than this team. Watch the dropped passes, missed tackles, out of position players, and shabby execution on display every week.

Kids..

 

[Coryea]

so why do you think Bradshaw sucked???



I don't believe you think he sucked but I do believe you don't appreciate his skills. The times were different and offenses were different. He was way more likely to throw it deep than hit 10 quick slants or a 10 yard curl or out route.

The offenses are way different today given the freedoms the rule book gives them. Offense sells tickets and advertising.

I don't under-appreciate his skills at all, I know exactly what the game was like then, we're debating two 1st ballot HOF players, so it's close no matter which side you're on.

 

[Coryea]

you can't compare stats at all. The game has completely changed, Now 60% completion is a minimum standard. Back in the 70s it was 50%. They didn't have all these quick throws.

There was no Edelman running quick routes over the middle because he would have been knocked the **** out. DBs were allowed to hold WRs into the mid 70s. Pass rushers were allowed to club the OT in the head then try to murder the QB. The fields sucked too. Half the time it was a mud pit. Other times if was a sheet of ice.

Half these QBs couldn't play in the 70s. Tom Brady could not play in the 70s. I don't even think Brady could have survived the 90s.

I would say that more great QBs of the past could play today than vice versa. It was much much harder not only in terms of punishment but just completing passes was harder.

I do think Bradshaw would do well today. He was a 1st overall pick for a reason. He had great talent. Was he the sharpest? No, but Bret Favre was no rocket surgeon

I'm not comparing stats to today, I was comparing Bradshaw's stats to the other QB's of that era (Staubach, Griese, Manning, Stabler) Bradshaw was well behind them in completion % and INT %. There's no denying Bradshaw's Super Bowl performances.

I agree it's impossible to compare stats across era's.

 

[Coryea]

I miss those days. I hated Matt Barnaby until he pulled the Pens sweater over his head. lol

Barnaby, that ****** would just laugh at the guy he was fighting, LOL

 

[steelhurt]

That's what I hate most about these debates, alot of people ( not you) take it as, since I say Ben was better that means I think Bradshaw sucked

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Didn’t take it that way at all Tom. I know you appreciate both QBs, hell like I said, 6 SBs between the two is pretty darn good. Our concern is what happens after Ben. A lot of talk about Jalen Hurts, who fits the current mold of multi talented young QBs and that might be what they do. They cannot be sold on Rudolph and Hodges should be a training camp cut. Paxton Lynch I have no idea what we have there. Maybe the new QB Coach helps Paxton and maturity as well. The guy was a first round talent and has everything you want. They kept him around for a reason so I’d like to see if he’s developed this summer if there is a training camp.


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[SteelerSask2]

Nobody will argue improved athleticism, but you are delusional if you think today's receivers have better technique across the board. I'd argue that the players in general back then had more sound fundamentals, and today's are sloppy by comparison, depending more on that athleticism. I'd love to be in that classroom when our current linebackers are teaching the finer points, based on 45 years of human performance evolution, of how to be in position, defend a pass, and make a tackle to Jack Ham, Andy Russell, and Jack Lambert.

Human performance evolution? I think you mean the kids are bigger and faster these days. They are definitely not smarter or know techniques better. The team of the 70s was much more fundamentally sound than this team. Watch the dropped passes, missed tackles, out of position players, and shabby execution on display every week.

Kids..

Charles,
I have a question for you and an assignment. First, how close are you to today's youth football? Do you coach, are you a parent, do you go watch games? The assignment is to go watch a decent portion of Super Bowl 13 objectively.
So as I said, I've coached both of my son's since my oldest who finished his grade 12 season was in grade 5. They both play two seasons spring and fall (which to my knowledge is the norm). The spring academy (which both my youngest and myself are missing cause of this ****** virus) starts in grade 8. I would totally argue that even in Pee wee, my son's were better coached then I was in senior high school. But without a shadow of a doubt they were as grade 8's at academy. A slobber knocker is not a technique. My oldest son played QB for his high school team. Without question his high school offense was 20 times more sophisticated then what they are running in the SB X111 film. His high school ran four and five R sets. All shotgun, with RPO's, film study at home. The works. In the SBXIII video they ran split backfield toss, lead, dive. That is a peewee, bantam, jr. high school offense today. Watch the receivers come off the line. Watch the body catches and drops. The tackle misses you are talking about are part of modern technique. The backs and receivers are so ****** agile you have to take a knifing technique at mid thigh (which is unfortunately what happened to Shazier). While this certainly defends every blade of grass it leads to some sloppy misses, but if you stand there squared up you won't miss, cause he will blow right by you.
Most importantly, have a look at the pics of the players when they show the different team units. Most of the guys look like the ex jocks on a company softball team today. If you transported those guys to today there is not one US or Even Canadian college team they could beat. Not one. They would give up 40- 70 lbs per player on both sides of the line and zero reduction in speed or athleticism. Now if you could transport SOME of those guys to today and they got all the modern training, coaching etc. Yes they would still be the best. But take a guy like Lambert. Tough as ****** nails. Pretty much a brick wall against a dive, inside lead or a draw. But even with all the modern training, would he be fast enough to cover a slot or all the other assignments of a Mack Linebacker today . I highly doubt it. Hell Vince Williams would be twice the athlete Lambert was and he is a liability in some sets.

 

[wig]

I wanted to check and see if Mel could possibly compete in modern era football. Now admittedly, I was born in 69, so most of my memories of the first run of the Steelers are from a very young age. And, being from Montana the truth is, you got the games on TV, and an occasional newspaper blurb in the sport section, but otherwise you didn't really hear or read anything about the players. And, being that my analytical skills at 5 to 10 years old were less than "Coach" Level, I can't honestly speak from that time about how good the players were other than the obvious. They won a LOT of SBs.

Anyway, I found this read on Blount, which was interesting if perhaps slightly biased. However the underlying point can't be overlooked.

https://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2014/7/10/5887023/the-legend-of-mel-blount

I think it would be amazing, and I wish Ant Man WOULD go back, grab a prime-of-his-career Bradshaw and pull him forward so we could see how he did in the modern era. Since that isn't possible, the only thing we can really do is compare them to their peers.

Bradshaw was David Tyree good in Big games. In the regular season, he was ok. The numbers simply bear that out. As for abuse, Ben has taken his share of abuse over his career. He may not have been close-lined, or body slammed by the Jones's, but he's had to deal with some big boys and some big hits throughout his career.

The irony is, Chuck's Steelers seemed to rise to the occasion and play amazing ball in the playoffs. Mike's teams (when they DO make the playoffs) tend to wilt. The exception, of course being the famous run through Cinci/Indy/Denver before playing Seattle in what? 05?

THAT was a great playoff run. The SB was alright, despite the fact that Ben played a fairly horrible game. He DID make several "Bradshaw" plays in that game though that were huge in the moment. His bomb to Hines at the 4 yard line and his scramble to score a TD.

Anyway, they're both great, but all things considered, for today's game - I take Ben and I don't think twice about it. That's just how I see it.