First off let me say that I coach football. I'm not naive about position switches and understand that there are physical skill set differences and assignment changes. HOWEVER, I do find it hard to believe that after one or two years experience you can't just get the seven best people on the force unit out there. Vince Williams is a tackling machine. He has good enough speed, pretty good instincts and a mean attitude. I find it hard to believe they couldn't have coached him up in an entire winter to prepare him for both positions. Pretty hard to send him back to the bench when Shazier is healthy. Shazier makes more spectacular plays but frankly overruns a lot of plays. Vince is a steadier player. And if it is Vince inside and Shazier as a pass rusher or cover Olb that is fine too.
Olb vs. Ilb
- Thread starter SteelerSask2
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Not sayin' that you don't have some merit Sask, but I would love to see the look on Tomberts face when you suggest that their 1st round draft pick is playing out of position and you want to replace him with the 2nd 6th round pick from the year before....jus sayin'.
Wouldn't say he is playing out of position. I want the best seven in the force unit on the field. I can't have this guy who should start be on the bench. Whoever can adapt best to OLB moves. I think Shazier might translate better. Not sure if he can hold edge but certainly can cover.
I think Vince is the better of the two. Then at that it's between Shaz and Timmons. Maybe plug Dirty Red in eventually. Timmons gets the nod over Shaz when it comes to experience. Shaz offers that splash play sans Polamalu to the defense. I would like to see Dirty Red implemented somewhere down the line based off his football instincts. There is no question though. Vince Williams is solidifying himself as a starter. He reminds me a lot of a harder hitting Earl Holmes
When healthy, Shazier is by far our best ILB. Right now, I'd have to say Vince maybe number 2. But, will Tomlin move him ahead of Timmons is the question. I have my doubts. I also don't see Tomlin moving Vince to the outside although he has played Jarvis on the interior of the line for some stupid reason. So, I guess anything is possible.
Isn't that exactly what happened to Timmons. Wasn't he drafted as an OLB? Many people here had him as a bust since he had to move to ILB...
Neither Williams or SHazier can play OLB in a 3-4.
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We would have to go to a 4-3. Put someone's hand in the dirt in front of Shazier than slide him over to more of a weak side run-and-hit linebacker.
I mean that DE in front of Shazier wouldn't have to be an OLB. We could use Heyward for that roll (he's been playing a lot on the weak side already) by sliding him further outside the left tackle. You could play a front-4 of Heyward, Hargrave, Tuitt and Dupree on the strong side, with Hargrave and Tuitt having the ability to shift over the guards as needed (stack, flex, penetrate, not penetrate, etc.).
In this case I would probably think Timmons takes on the roll of tradition MLB and Williams becomes our SAM but they could be reversed. Timmons is playing bigger and stronger and slower than he has and could be labeled a SAM in many systems (when he was younger he was likely a WILL for many 4-3 systems, shifted to a MIKE during his middle years).
I don't really like it, but think we're playing more and more four man fronts all the time. But lack of pass rushing talent and quicks on the edge (either from Jones overtop of Heyward or Moats overtop of Tuitt) has kind of hindered the defenses to beat the tackles.
I mean that DE in front of Shazier wouldn't have to be an OLB. We could use Heyward for that roll (he's been playing a lot on the weak side already) by sliding him further outside the left tackle. You could play a front-4 of Heyward, Hargrave, Tuitt and Dupree on the strong side, with Hargrave and Tuitt having the ability to shift over the guards as needed (stack, flex, penetrate, not penetrate, etc.).
In this case I would probably think Timmons takes on the roll of tradition MLB and Williams becomes our SAM but they could be reversed. Timmons is playing bigger and stronger and slower than he has and could be labeled a SAM in many systems (when he was younger he was likely a WILL for many 4-3 systems, shifted to a MIKE during his middle years).
I don't really like it, but think we're playing more and more four man fronts all the time. But lack of pass rushing talent and quicks on the edge (either from Jones overtop of Heyward or Moats overtop of Tuitt) has kind of hindered the defenses to beat the tackles.
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What makes you say that? I certainly remember Chad Brown having to switch from ILB to OLB in a 3-4 and turning out to be a monster. Pretty much same size guys but Chad needed to add some weight...I would figure the same for Shazier.
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that makes sense when Dupree comes back playing a role similar to terrell suggs with the ravens
Two different players.. Brown had natural pass rushing skills which made his switch easier..Shazier does not have that nor Williams.. Shazier is just getting better at stacking and shedding guards to make the tackle instead of trying to run around them. He can't play OLB in a 3-4 scheme. Like Dez said in a 4-3 he could play middle or weak side OLB. Brown was a different animal. He could beat OTs and could bend the corner. Shazier nor Williams have never showed the ability to do that.
So this is where I get a little confused. In one thread we hypothesis that a guy who has never played football could play NFL TE despite the fact that he hasn't put on a helmet or shoulder pads. But we cannot ask an experienced and talented player to work on subskill A, B, C in the offseason to give himself position flexibility.
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Williams needs to play. At this point he's probably better than a declining Timmons who by the way was drafted as an OLB and moved inside.
Williams is very physical and has good instincts. While I think he is below average in coverage when he paired with Shazier it's less of an issue.
I haven't been in that thread.. I'm guessing based on his size that's where they tried him. Same as Big Al he was tried at Defense first by the Eagles. As far as Williams and Shazier neither naturally possess the ability to turn the corner combined with the ability to bull rush a OT. Shazier is fast enough to turn the corner but that's all he can do. Once OTs know that's all he can do they will play him for that. And meet him and bury him. He is no threat to bull rush them. As fast as Dupree is if he didn't develop and get stronger to threaten OTs with a bull rush we will see the same thing from him when he gets back ran up the arc.
I'm not sure about OLB for Shazier, but safety is out:
http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...ots-down-idea-of-shazier-switching-positions/
http://www.Invalid Link - Check SN ...ots-down-idea-of-shazier-switching-positions/
I made a post about something similar to this a week or two ago, but I asked about moving Timmons outside, where he has played a decent amount before. We aren't getting pressure from our OLB'S much any ways, so his lack of pass rush moves won't be a killer.
Because imo there is more to playing 3-4 OLB then pass rushing. Clark Haggans held down a OLB spot for years and he wasn't a pass rusher.
I think the sub specialization of skills in the NFL has become overblown. You are a linebacker, you have this body type which is more or less the same inside and out. You have the whole winter to prepare. We would like you to be able to do this on top of this. Look, I hear some of you and I get it. And truthfully, and fairly Jarvis Jones is exceeding my expectations this year and looks serviceable (though he twice flattened out down the line last week and went for a four yard ride on the back of the runner. Timmons, Shazier and Williams are all athletes. Impact players. coaches job, by scheme, by preparation to get them all on the field as often as possible. Really it is. Anyone who has watched Williams play the last three weeks can see he is one of the top 4 or five players in the 7 man force unit.
Sask you also have to have the instincts and experience that comes from playing the position for a long time
Instincts come from playing. I'm confident Williams is good at ILB. He could have worked at camp and played the preseason.
Yes I know, the weakest part of Timmons playing OLB would be his pass rushing skills, every other aspect of playing that position, he'd do fine. Haggans was ****** but he was a much better pass rusher than Jones will ever be
I mean that is a basic kind of point. Like Jones is doing alright holding edge and playing the pass, but cmon. For the most part how much worse could Williams do as an edge rusher. At least he has the fight and tenacity in him and he is way more physical.
Cmon guys if it was easy to do Alot of guys would do it..it's not. Neither one has the instincts to play OLB. You see the game different. Your keys are different. They would be thinking instead of reacting. Jones isn't the only player on defense who isn't getting it done as a rusher. He didn't get a sack last week but he has made plays.
