OCs, including Haley, overrated

[POP]

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...s-offensive-coordinator-todd-haley-has-passed

OCs are not usually as good as their hype. They are mostly simply products of the talent on the field. Norv Turner built an entire career, including a few head coaching gigs, simply because he had all the sick level of talent to work with in Dallas. Not only did they have maybe the best O line in the history of the NFL, they had Hall of Fame QB, RB and WR, among the best ever to play the game. So, ta da, they put up monster stats and he got credit for it.

Kevin Gilbride seemed like a hot OC, when he had that super talented Jags team to work with, that showcases one of the best OL, Mark Brunell, Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith and McCardell. He spun it into a head coach gig and promptly fell on his face.

They are now lauding Haley as some kind of a great OC, where, in reality, the presence of Ben, a solid OL, the best WR in the NFL, etc. are the real reasons for them being so explosive. Had Todd had his way, he'd still be calling the plays, handcuffing them with an overdose of bubble screens and short **** all day long. They basically "fell into it" with Ben running some no huddles and calling more plays. Left up to Haley, they would have never become such an explosive unit. Ben is the bulk of why they are as good as they are. In his absence, they became crappy - with even AB not getting much done.

Haley owes Ben, big time, from any future gigs he gets. He is riding his coattails, to say the least.

It's not that I have anything against Haley, per se, but he only deserves so much credit; he isn't the difference maker, as is usually the case with most OCs.

 

[DBS1970]

I thought Bens numbers have improved since Haley has been in the OC spot.

 

[POP]

I thought Bens numbers have improved since Haley has been in the OC spot.

Right, as has his O line, the quality of weapons around him and Ben has improved himself. I am just saying Haley is NOT the whole reason for them getting so explosive.

It's not like TH play calling is so awesome, as this article would have you believe.

 

[Steelerfan81]

Well we know the play calling lacks sometimes. Haley is doing exactly what they hired him to do though. No get Ben killed

 

[Litos]

Right, as has his O line, the quality of weapons around him and Ben has improved himself. I am just saying Haley is NOT the whole reason for them getting so explosive.

It's not like TH play calling is so awesome, as this article would have you believe.

better than most of what's available out there. As long as his play calling isn't detrimental I won't complain

 

[south dakota STEEL]

happy to have Haley calling plays....could be worse....Tomlin could be calling ALL the plays

 

[bermudasteel]

You cannot be serious Pop. Coach Haley has improved this offense to (when all the piece are in place) the BEST in the league. Ben's numbers and play have never looked this good...

 

[POP]

You cannot be serious Pop. Coach Haley has improved this offense to (when all the piece are in place) the BEST in the league. Ben's numbers and play have never looked this good...

You didn't grasp what I wrote. Sure, it's better than ever, just like Dallas was under Turner and Jags under Gilbride, but once those two guys didn't have loaded rosters, they stopped producing too, just as Haley would if he didn't have Ben.

 

[stillwright]

You cannot be serious Pop. Coach Haley has improved this offense to (when all the piece are in place) the BEST in the league. Ben's numbers and play have never looked this good...

When they improve in the RZ I will give Haley props. I wish we would see Ben running the no huddle way more than we did last season. Haley's Offense has changed the way Ben plays the game, but his play selection at times are just as questionable as our former OC.

 

[DocScott]

Haley gets it....finally! When he first came on board, he used too many players unnecessary on different situations. The light came on and he played his "starting 11" with better results. They need the reps to become proficient and it shows. Just look at the numbers we've put up since we established our core players. Go Steelers!

 

[SteelerFan448]

This post is borderline saying that a coach is only as good as his players. Can there be no great coaches then? At some point, the coach has to get credit for putting the players in place to succeed.

 

[ark steel]

60.7% last year. Even better than Cowers players did in 2008...

Overall RZ scoring has improved over the years.

	RZ	G2G
2015	60.71%	74.19%
2014	52.73%	66.67%
2013	52.83%	75.00%
2012	55.10%	83.33%
2011	50.94%	63.33%
2010	48.00%	68.00%
2009	48.21%	64.52%
2008	55.10%	58.62%
2007	58.18%	70.83%

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[Wingman]

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.co...s-offensive-coordinator-todd-haley-has-passed

OCs are not usually as good as their hype. They are mostly simply products of the talent on the field. Norv Turner built an entire career, including a few head coaching gigs, simply because he had all the sick level of talent to work with in Dallas. Not only did they have maybe the best O line in the history of the NFL, they had Hall of Fame QB, RB and WR, among the best ever to play the game. So, ta da, they put up monster stats and he got credit for it.

Kevin Gilbride seemed like a hot OC, when he had that super talented Jags team to work with, that showcases one of the best OL, Mark Brunell, Fred Taylor, Jimmy Smith and McCardell. He spun it into a head coach gig and promptly fell on his face.

They are now lauding Haley as some kind of a great OC, where, in reality, the presence of Ben, a solid OL, the best WR in the NFL, etc. are the real reasons for them being so explosive. Had Todd had his way, he'd still be calling the plays, handcuffing them with an overdose of bubble screens and short **** all day long. They basically "fell into it" with Ben running some no huddles and calling more plays. Left up to Haley, they would have never become such an explosive unit. Ben is the bulk of why they are as good as they are. In his absence, they became crappy - with even AB not getting much done.

Haley owes Ben, big time, from any future gigs he gets. He is riding his coattails, to say the least.

It's not that I have anything against Haley, per se, but he only deserves so much credit; he isn't the difference maker, as is usually the case with most OCs.

I suspect that those players might not have been as productive with different OC and or other coaches. Haley was the change that happened to keep Ben from getting hit so many times. There are subtle changes one sees when watching the games that can be attributed to coaching. Some of these improvements defy statistics a bit because they are dependent on execution by players as well. Just as players can make a coach look good they can also make him look bad when they have the occasional bad day. Another aspect to take into consideration is the effect officiating has on games. I will use the seahawks game in which Richard Sherman was allowed to make a great deal more contact, with Antonio Brown than seemed permissible based on the rules of the game.

There are enough variables in the team sport we know as football to make good metrics hard to achieve. I often think they can be used to help with the evaluation of things, but they are likely less useful in football than say the sport of baseball.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Haley has definately helped this team / offense. A part of what has gotten Ben to come around is the coaching in his ear. Give credit to a sensational core group, but also give credit to the deserving coaching staff as well. ANY coach would look like **** if their core group faded. Billicheat wouldn't exist with out Ernie Adams or "the deflator", just as an example.



Salute the nation

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

60.7% last year. Even better than Cowers players did in 2008...

Overall RZ scoring has improved over the years.

	RZ	G2G
2015	60.71%	74.19%
2014	52.73%	66.67%
2013	52.83%	75.00%
2012	55.10%	83.33%
2011	50.94%	63.33%
2010	48.00%	68.00%
2009	48.21%	64.52%
2008	55.10%	58.62%
2007	58.18%	70.83%

<tbody>
</tbody>

 

[DBS1970]

60.7% last year. Even better than Cowers players did in 2008...

Overall RZ scoring has improved over the years.

	RZ	G2G
2015	60.71%	74.19%
2014	52.73%	66.67%
2013	52.83%	75.00%
2012	55.10%	83.33%
2011	50.94%	63.33%
2010	48.00%	68.00%
2009	48.21%	64.52%
2008	55.10%	58.62%
2007	58.18%	70.83%

<tbody> p

</tbody>

Leave it to the Arktuary to come up with a stat graphic.

 

[Badcat]

The premise that offensive coordinators are overrated is presumptive and devoid of recognition of the symbiotic relationship between an offensive system, how well the system is taught, the players ability to learn and execute within the system, how the system is strategically deployed, and to your singular point; how talented are the players within the system. That's not even taking into account the personal relationships that each player has with another and how each player builds a relationship with the coaching staff. The success of a team, or more specifically an offensive unit, does not hinge on but one player or a single coach; but I ask that you give the coach his due as he builds the very system that exploits the strength of his unit, is able to successfully teach the system and ensure his players are learning and executing the system, sets and deploys the game day strategy against opponents, and builds trusting and respectful relationships with those players.

Overrated is a term better suited for the likes of Tom Brady, who was a nobody until being brought into a specific system of offense and surrounded by a network of people teaching principles based on cheating and winning at all costs.

 

[ark steel]

The premise that offensive coordinators are overrated is presumptive and devoid of recognition of the symbiotic relationship between an offensive system, how well the system is taught, the players ability to learn and execute within the system, how the system is strategically deployed, and to your singular point; how talented are the players within the system. That's not even taking into account the personal relationships that each player has with another and how each player builds a relationship with the coaching staff. The success of a team, or more specifically an offensive unit, does not hinge on but one player or a single coach; but I ask that you give the coach his due as he builds the very system that exploits the strength of his unit, is able to successfully teach the system and ensure his players are learning and executing the system, sets and deploys the game day strategy against opponents, and builds trusting and respectful relationships with those players.

Overrated is a term better suited for the likes of Tom Brady, who was a nobody until being brought into a specific system of offense and surrounded by a network of people teaching principles based on cheating and winning at all costs.

I think the OC can have a **** ton of talent to work with, but if that talent doesn't fit his system and he doesn't adapt, he is ******. This, simplistically, I think was The Bruce's issue here. Talent was there, except for the obvious issues on the OL and he ran his offense as if the OL was good. Mularky had the same issue here. I think it was him. Ran his offense even though it didn't fit the QB skill set (it was the skill set the QB wanted and, maybe, thought he had. QB was talented, just not in the way that fit the O Mularky wanted to run.

 

[Coach]

I thought Bens numbers have improved since Haley has been in the OC spot.

Well, Haley was brought in to run the ball and protect Ben. So they told us. We do less of that now. In fact, Ben drops back more than ever.

Players like Bell, Bryant, the development of Brown into the best WR in the NFL, Miller ( retired ), and Wheaton, combined with a good OL make the Steelers an offensive coordinators dream.

Yet we struggle way too much in eh red zone given our talent. That my friends is coaching.

Without Ben, Haley struggled. Haley is an average OC. Nothing more than that.

 

[Coach]

View attachment 2528

There was a thread a while back. The Steelers are middle of the pack in terms of red zone TD's. However, our skill players and OL are elite.

A bit of a head scratcher.

 

[Steelerfan]

This thread is useless without pictures.

 

[wig]

The red-zone issues are largely because the offense is built to be a vertical passing offense. If you look at Roethlisberger's numbers over his career, he throws the long ball. This team is far better at 15 to 30 yard plays than 3 to 8 yard plays, particularly in the red zone.

You have Martavis Bryant (or you did...), Antonio Brown, Wheaton, DHB, All speedy receivers who are better at spreading the defense and getting deep than necessarily pulling off "Wes Welker" 3 yard slants and then diving to the ground after an additional 2 yards to make it 2nd and 5. We had Heath previously for the short middle stuff and even then he was more often used for longer seam routes. You rarely saw him run 5 or 6 yard curls. It's just not something that's really in the Steeler Offense. The backs occasionally will run some really pathetic screens, but for whatever reason the Steelers for as long as I can remember are the most God-awful screen execution team I've seen. The closest thing we have to a consistent short passing game are those hateful WR screens that 8 times out of ten are either stopped at the L.O.S. if they're not tackled for a loss.

All these things make the Steeler's Red Zone opportunities more difficult. The fact that they did as well as they did last year is (I think) very encouraging. It's not that Ben can't make all the throws. It's just that the way the Offense is designed, they don't tend to focus on the shorter routes as often as they could. Perhaps Green and James can address that.

Just my opinion, mind you.

 

[ark steel]

There was a thread a while back. The Steelers are middle of the pack in terms of red zone TD's. However, our skill players and OL are elite.

A bit of a head scratcher.

But the point, in case you missed it, is that the RZ %, while in the middle of the pack last year, are higher than ever under Tomlin. Even higher than "Cowher's player" achieved in Tomlins first couple of years. I don't know if anyone remembers, but last year, the Steelers were missing a starting RB and a starting center. For part of the year they were missing the starting LT and a first year LT was playing that spot. Maybe, just maybe, with healthy starters on the OL, the RZ% increases even more?

I stopped it at 2007 because that was Tomlin's first year.

Going back from 2006 to 2004, I see 50.0, 60.71, 45.90.

 

[Badcat]

I think the OC can have a **** ton of talent to work with, but if that talent doesn't fit his system and he doesn't adapt, he is ******. This, simplistically, I think was The Bruce's issue here. Talent was there, except for the obvious issues on the OL and he ran his offense as if the OL was good. Mularky had the same issue here. I think it was him. Ran his offense even though it didn't fit the QB skill set (it was the skill set the QB wanted and, maybe, thought he had. QB was talented, just not in the way that fit the O Mularky wanted to run.

I agree. You can even add in Kevin Gilbride and his zone read offense with Kordell at the helm throwing to Hawkins, 2nd year Hines Ward, and rookie Troy Edwards. The WR and QB have to make the same read on the coverage...and you have Kordell and two very young and inexperienced WRs. Instead of the zone read...should have invented the read option.

 

[Coach]

But the point, in case you missed it, is that the RZ %, while in the middle of the pack last year, are higher than ever under Tomlin. Even higher than "Cowher's player" achieved in Tomlins first couple of years. I don't know if anyone remembers, but last year, the Steelers were missing a starting RB and a starting center. For part of the year they were missing the starting LT and a first year LT was playing that spot. Maybe, just maybe, with healthy starters on the OL, the RZ% increases even more?

I stopped it at 2007 because that was Tomlin's first year.

Going back from 2006 to 2004, I see 50.0, 60.71, 45.90.

Well, there have been some major rule changes that favor passing and scoring since 2007. You can't touch WR's, tackles can line up a 1/2 step behind the line of scrimmage, legal hits are not fouls, etc...

So I prefer to judge the Steelers relative to other teams ranking in the red zone, not in a percentage.

We have more talent than most NFL teams of offense. Yet in the red zone we are average. Haley's play calling is part of the reason.