Let's be honest Steelers got lucky

[NoKap#7]

Calm down sir

Kap:

Your opinion is great. Congratulations

Now what separated your elite players from your boss players

With specificity. I can help you more with this if you don't know how to make an argument

I dont know how you would measure Football IQ or leadership so as to show it as a specific stat. Its more of a observation over time compared to what you see from other QBs. Maybe clutchness can be measured. You can look at 4th quarter comebacks....maybe TD interception ratio and playoff record. Probably QBR could be thrown in there and win % of starts.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Why can't they all be elite? Ben has the Super Bowls and stats.

What about Joe Flacco?

 

[TimesAreChanged]

I dont know how you would measure Football IQ or leadership so as to show it as a specific stat. Its more of a observation over time compared to what you see from other QBs. Maybe clutchness can be measured. You can look at 4th quarter comebacks....maybe TD interception ratio and playoff record. Probably QBR could be thrown in there and win % of starts.

Example:

A was better than B because:


I think you'll find it's impossible to make a solid argument that Montana East much better than Marino who was much better than Ben

You'll have to look to locker room and off field behavior. That's where those guys destroy Ben and Ben destroyed his legacy

 

[TimesAreChanged]

What about Joe Flacco?

Is Flacco elite?

 

[NoKap#7]

Example:

A was better than B because:


I think you'll find it's impossible to make a solid argument that Montana East much better than Marino who was much better than Ben

You'll have to look to locker room and off field behavior. That's where those guys destroy Ben and Ben destroyed his legacy

Yeah i can see that, and you do most definitely have to look at the skill players surrounding them and make that consideration also. Montana did have the cream of the crop around him stacked on both sides of the ball. They had to going into all those arms races with the Cowboys. People have said Marino never really had the talent around him. I won't argue it was anywhere near what the 49ers had. Id be surprised at least. There offenses i think could compete but people have said the defenses were the issue. I've also seen posts from Miami fans where they said Miami defenses were not the issue so there's that.

 

[Coryea]

Example:

A was better than B because:


I think you'll find it's impossible to make a solid argument that Montana East much better than Marino who was much better than Ben

You'll have to look to locker room and off field behavior. That's where those guys destroy Ben and Ben destroyed his legacy

I saw Marino play, super quick release and big arm, but I can't say he was much better than Ben, Ben was more accurate and didn't have nearly as many INT's. I know, I know, different era and all that, but he wasn't much better than Ben, if better at all. Everyone says Brady is the GOAT because of his Super Bowls, well then that has to be held against Marino then.
Depends who you ask about the locker room, the Oline loved Ben, Bettis loved Ben, Farrior, Hampton, Troy all the guys that loved football like Ben. You think all the NE players liked Brady screaming at them?
Talking about weapons around each player, then why does Ben never get credit for turning these WR's into something? Ward had his best years with Ben, Ward put up great numbers before too, Holmes had his only 70+catch 1000+yard season with Ben (Ward and Holmes both Super Bowl MVP's), Wallace was on a historic start to his career with Ben, left and never came close to that again, AB was a top WR in the NFL for a 5 year span, without Ben he averages something like 4 catches for 47 yards per game, JuJu had 111 catch season with 1400+yards with Ben, had 97 catch season also, left here wasn't close to that, Dionte freaking Johnson had a 107 catch season for 1100+yards, we saw what happened there, Chase Claypool had a 10 TD season here.

 

[Steelmann]

Stupid azz if I meant every draft I would simply say every draft. I said "There are entire drafts where not a single person was signed beyond their rookie contract" That doesnt mean every draft. It means a draft here and there which is a fact you dumb moron. I said they were one of the worst drafting teams from 2015-2024 which is also a fact.

 

[slashsteel]

I stand by everything I said

And your reaction says all we need to know

To Kap:

Ben was an elite QB on the field and a wrecking ball off of it.

And I stand by everything I said, your constant defending of a tired out situation tells me all I need to know. Have a jovial day.

 

[slashsteel]

Coaches have a huge say in the draft, they have the majority, see Cowher vs Donahoe. Khan is just a numbers guy.
But, no matter what, this team has been embarrassed in the exact same way for almost a decade now in the post season, get annihilated early, we come out super flat, and there's only one constant and that's Tomlin.

The only constant. Even the conversations are played out. We all know how we feel about the situation by now. I prefer what really matters playoff wins and competitive possibilities beyond that.

We do not have that right now nor will we until change.

 

[slashsteel]

I saw Marino play, super quick release and big arm, but I can't say he was much better than Ben, Ben was more accurate and didn't have nearly as many INT's. I know, I know, different era and all that, but he wasn't much better than Ben, if better at all. Everyone says Brady is the GOAT because of his Super Bowls, well then that has to be held against Marino then.
Depends who you ask about the locker room, the Oline loved Ben, Bettis loved Ben, Farrior, Hampton, Troy all the guys that loved football like Ben. You think all the NE players liked Brady screaming at them?
Talking about weapons around each player, then why does Ben never get credit for turning these WR's into something? Ward had his best years with Ben, Ward put up great numbers before too, Holmes had his only 70+catch 1000+yard season with Ben (Ward and Holmes both Super Bowl MVP's), Wallace was on a historic start to his career with Ben, left and never came close to that again, AB was a top WR in the NFL for a 5 year span, without Ben he averages something like 4 catches for 47 yards per game, JuJu had 111 catch season with 1400+yards with Ben, had 97 catch season also, left here wasn't close to that, Dionte freaking Johnson had a 107 catch season for 1100+yards, we saw what happened there, Chase Claypool had a 10 TD season here.

Ben gets flack because of his off the field issues. On it there really is no denying he was elite.

 

[Coryea]

Ben gets flack because of his off the field issues. On it there really is no denying he was elite.

Marino had his off the field issues, including why some say the Steelers passed on him, but yeah I agree there.

 

[slashsteel]

Marino had his off the field issues, including why some say the Steelers passed on him, but yeah I agree there.

Yep before he was even drafted. Cokehead if I remember correctly…

 

[BLITZ]

Steelers absolutely did not have more of a complete team. The 2017 team was about as complete as they had. The rest of the teams the offense was good but the defense wasnt because for the most part they started to age out and it seemed to be a struggle to put a secondary together. I won't even go into how bad the drafts were on both sides.

Team Defense Ranking- Source: Pro Football Reference. Points allowed ranking in (). Fact is the defense wasnt good enough to help out a good offense during most of that time except 2017 which is admittedly Tomlins biggest failure as a coach although it could be noted your best defensive player was paralyzed that year, nonetheless they still should have done better.

2007 - #1(2)
2008 - #1 (1)
2009 - #5 (13)
2010 - #2 (1)
2011 - #1 (1)
2012 - #1 (6)
2013 - #13 (14)
2014- #18 (18)
2015 - #12 (11)
2016 - #12 (10)
2017 - #5 (7)
2018 - #6 (17)
2019 - #5 (6)
2020 - #3 (3)
2021 - #19 (19)

This is the Offensive rankings for the same time frame. Team Offense Rank over the years...source PRO FOOTBALL REFERENCE "Points For" ranking in ()

2021 #25 (24)
2020 #24 (12)
2019 #30 (27)
2018 #4 (8)
2017 #3 (8)
2016 #7 (11)
2015 #3 (5)
2014 #2 (7)
2013 #20 (17)
2012 #21 (22)
2011 #12 (22)
2010 #14 (12)
2009 #7 (12)
2008 #22 (20)
2007 #17 (9)

Typically when the offense was up the defense was down and vice versa. So as you can see they never had a balanced team even throughout the Killer B era besides 2017 so its a complete fallacy when someone says the Steelers had a more complete team. That could be the case maybe when talking about Marino, but not completely sure what thats based upon when you think about the Packers, Bills, Ravens, over the years??

As far as Haley i wonder if he would have been more influential in preventing Ben from playing hero ball as much which at times put the Steelers behind the 8 ball early in games. The organization preferred Ben over him obviously, but that goes with the saying you live by the sword you die by the sword. Maybe a competent OC could have helped this team to win a playoff game or two since their last win. The OCs that followed sure didnt.

Thanks for proving my point the team that tomlunnput together was not as complete the one he took over. 2017 def was a shell of itself.

Haley was the best OC the Steelers had in a long time and since.
As he said score 40+ points and the OC gets fired?

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Thanks for proving my point the team that tomlunnput together was not as complete the one he took over. 2017 def was a shell of itself.

Haley was the best OC the Steelers had in a long time and since.
As he said score 40+ points and the OC gets fired?

As I said a while back in this thread, Haley’s five years was statistically the best offense of Tomlin’s tenure.