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Jones or Jones? Jarvis or Howard

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Jones or Jones?

While our OLB's are sucking wind as pass rushers and making very few tackles vs. the run, I see Howard Jones who was cut in camp has 5 sacks for the season.

Howard Jones likely did not play a lot of snaps this season, yet he's already tied with Jarvis Jones career total.

Meanwhile, Jarvis Jones has but 2 sacks for the season. Did Tomlin let a decent pass rusher go?
 
It is the ol invested a high pick in a player and they get a pass.

Until it is deemed they no longer get a pass.

High number 1's are fortunate, until a team tires of their lack of performance, injury, or deems them a bust.
 
Coach said:
Jones or Jones?

While our OLB's are sucking wind as pass rushers and making very few tackles vs. the run, I see Howard Jones who was cut in camp has 5 sacks for the season.

Howard Jones likely did not play a lot of snaps this season, yet he's already tied with Jarvis Jones career total.

Meanwhile, Jarvis Jones has but 2 sacks for the season. Did Tomlin let a decent pass rusher go?
Click to expand...

Didn't you already have a thread about this exact discussion a week or so ago?
 
I understand a team make an investment in a guy so it is hard to give up. It is pretty clear that they have come to grips with the fact that they don't believe he is the guy when they brought back Harrison and split snaps. I don't know what they do next year. If they are smart it is addition by subtraction. If Chickillo improves I'd really give him a chance and just dump Jones. He is a stench on this defense. I'd also bring in a mid range FA. If Chickillo doesn't pan you easily get Jones production from a mid range FA. It can't possibly be hard to replace 2 sacks. I'm thinking anyone who could make a roster could get 2 sacks in half time play through a whole season. And As I recall neither of those sacks were just straight out beating a guy. They were both pocket collapsing QB flushed plays.
 
Jarvis Jones sucks, this can't be refuted. But since he was 1st rounder, the front office/tomlin feels compelled to keep him in the fray and hope he can improve. It sucks, but it is what it is
 
Didn't Howard Jones play defensive end in Tampa? Maybe he just couldn't make the transition to OLB and was a better fit for that defense.
 
SteelerFan448 said:
Didn't Howard Jones play defensive end in Tampa? Maybe he just couldn't make the transition to OLB and was a better fit for that defense.
Click to expand...

I was getting ready to write this. HJ played DE in college and was projected to be an NFL LB based on his size. I don't remember him standing out a whole lot in preseason except recovering fumbles. He didn't pan out at LB with the Steelers, but seems to be doing well at DE in a 4-3 defense.

Jarvis still sucks and the Steelers need to upgrade the position.
 
What was the deal with Shawn Lemon? Was he released because he sucked or injury? I saw he was released from his CFL team recently so he could pursue a spot with an NFL team.
 
Lemon was bothered by injuries in camp, but was simply released in Early August. Picked up by the 49ers and released at the end of August. He went back to the CFL and played for Ottawa. He was released in December so he could persue the NFL again. Steelers won't be bringing him back I'd imagine.
 
SteelerSask said:
Lemon was bothered by injuries in camp, but was simply released in Early August. Picked up by the 49ers and released at the end of August. He went back to the CFL and played for Ottawa. He was released in December so he could persue the NFL again. Steelers won't be bringing him back I'd imagine.
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I dunno they seem reluctant to let lemons go





:logo2:
 
Coach said:
Jones or Jones?

While our OLB's are sucking wind as pass rushers and making very few tackles vs. the run, I see Howard Jones who was cut in camp has 5 sacks for the season.

Howard Jones likely did not play a lot of snaps this season, yet he's already tied with Jarvis Jones career total.

Meanwhile, Jarvis Jones has but 2 sacks for the season. Did Tomlin let a decent pass rusher go?
Click to expand...

and "No one everrrrr,,,,,,,,,,, is to blame."
 
Of course lets forget playing OLB in a 3-4 is totally different then DE in a 4-3. But hey **** it
 
antdrewjosh said:
Of course lets forget playing OLB in a 3-4 is totally different then DE in a 4-3. But hey **** it
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Howard Jones was one of my sleeper picks for this team... and when we got him as an UFA I was thrilled... he did make plays in preseason... as a raw OLB in a 3-4 he was still more dynamic than JJ was... did he have to learn coverage a bit more, sure but in TB DEs are in coverage at times too... the 4-3 role he is playing is very similar to the one he had here... It was an outright mistake to let him go, but Tomlin has always favored pedigree over playing ability. even the UFAs that have gotten a chance here were given one a year behind the time they earned it. One of the absolute flaws of Tomlin is that his regime has not been able to look past what they have invested in a position to play the best option...

You saw it with Brown, who despite showing playmaking ability was behind sanders and the pre existing vets until injuries forced his hand.... you saw it with Beechum, another guy that fell despite ability because of his build, where despite looking better than our other options at LT it took injuries to finally give him a chance... we see it with Golden, who is a far better option than Allen is at safety.... the list goes on..... other coaches have this fault too, even cowher fell into it for a minute in the middle of his career here, but it annoys the piss out of me, especially since most late rounders will never get a true shot with another team once cut regardless of ability.... you flush a lot of playmaking when you let draft and free agent pedigree dictate the pecking order of players
 
antdrewjosh said:
Of course lets forget playing OLB in a 3-4 is totally different then DE in a 4-3. But hey **** it
Click to expand...

Of course let's forget that offenses adjust to whichever scheme they are facing. 5 sacks is 5 sacks. HoJo definitely showed promise here.....and yes his role in TB's 4-3 is similar to what it would be as an OLB here....
 
antdrewjosh said:
Of course lets forget playing OLB in a 3-4 is totally different then DE in a 4-3. But hey **** it
Click to expand...
True. Also lets not pretend Howard Jones was beaten out for his position by Jarvis Jones. Jones was coming off of an injury and his position was basically secure from OTA's on. Jones was beaten out by Chickillo who is the last OLB on the depth chart. But none of that changes the fact that Jarvis Jones is the worst first round pick since Stephens with only Hood, Chad Scott and Troy Edwards in the discussion, but truthfully those three aren't even close to as bad as this guy. Bringing him back next season would require insanity.
 
The defensive ends in a tampa two defense do not have the same responsibilities as a 3-4 OLB our defense. Unless lovie is playing something I'm else then I'm wrong
 
I was curious about Jones stats because to be fair he is sharing a position. On Rotoworld it came up as this
He has 441 defensive snaps and 112 special teams snaps. Now again to be fair less than a 1/4 of special team plays result in an opportunity because of the downed ball on kick offs and fair caught punts so lets say 30 opportunities for a total of 470 plays. He has 29 tackles of which 15 are solo, two sacks a forced fumble and an interception. That means he is involved in a tackle once in every 16 plays and he gets a sack every 220 plays. That is really hard to imagine. Though I wouldn't say that Harrison has been light years better 1 tackle per 14.7 plays and one sack every 108 plays with two forced fumbles, Harrison is an old man and pretty clearly done or damn near it.
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out where this team must get better. ROLB and corner back
 
And to put it all into perspective here is Harrison's best season:
2010 32 Pit 16 100 70 30 10.5 5 2 0 6 1 0 0 0 0
His hundred tackles is essentially the same as all four of him, Jones, Moates and Dupree as with his 10.5 sacks and 6 forced fumbles.
 
antdrewjosh said:
The defensive ends in a tampa two defense do not have the same responsibilities as a 3-4 OLB our defense. Unless lovie is playing something I'm else then I'm wrong
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Didn't say "the same" just "similar." But even if that's not completely accurate my post was more toward the point of "applied" athleticism. By that I mean football instincts combined with ability, strength and an amount talent. H Jones has shown more of that as an ufa than JJ, a first rounder with more games under his belt and ostensibly more talent...... H Jones' 5 sacks help bear that out I believe.
 
SteelerFan448 said:
Didn't Howard Jones play defensive end in Tampa? Maybe he just couldn't make the transition to OLB and was a better fit for that defense.
Click to expand...

antdrewjosh said:
Of course lets forget playing OLB in a 3-4 is totally different then DE in a 4-3. But hey **** it
Click to expand...

You guys beat me to it...

A DE in the 4-3 does not drop into coverage as much as OLB's in a 3-4 do. The similarity is collapsing the pocket, but the angles are different - DE's are quite as wide as an OLB, but, again, it depends on the variation of the 4-3 or 3-4. Also, Lovie Smith is known for an attacking 4-3/4-6 Bear defense - it works because he usually has CB's who can be put on an island and play man-to-man. Unfortunately, before anyone jumps on me or Coach Butler, we do not have that or those same skillets in our present DB's...
 
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SteelerFan448 said:
Didn't Howard Jones play defensive end in Tampa? Maybe he just couldn't make the transition to OLB and was a better fit for that defense.
Click to expand...

We really could have used him as a 3rd down pass rusher. Clearly he's better than Jarvis Jones. I'm pretty sure Howard would add more to special teams too.

Tomlin kept the wrong Jones!
 
bermudasteel said:
You guys beat me to it...

A DE in the 4-3 does not drop into coverage as much as OLB's in a 3-4 do. The similarity is collapsing the pocket, but the angles are different - DE's are quite as wide as an OLB, but, again, it depends on the variation of the 4-3 or 3-4. Also, Lovie Smith is known for an attacking 4-3/4-6 Bear defense - it works because he usually has CB's who can be put on an island and play man-to-man. Unfortunately, before anyone jumps on me or Coach Butler, we do not have that or those same skillets in our present DB's...
Click to expand...

Um we play Jarvis a lot like a 4-3 end. Amazing as it might sound Howard could have been our best pass rusher this season. Just look what he did with a limited snap count.

Tomlin cut a talent and at other positions starts the wrong man ( Blake )
 
antdrewjosh said:
The defensive ends in a tampa two defense do not have the same responsibilities as a 3-4 OLB our defense. Unless lovie is playing something I'm else then I'm wrong
Click to expand...

On third down their assignments are the same. Rush the passer. In this critical skill Howard > Jarvis.

I'd bet a lot Howard is better on special teams and cost much less on the cap.
 
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