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Is JAX #33 and 65 Good for #24?

Says the guy who gets his panties in a wad when one doesn't drink his kool-aid.

Straw man #1.

Tomlin doesn't run the team (personally can't wait until he's gone), so not sure what that or any of the other hyperbole you typed has to do with me stating I'd rather they not follow the lead of team that rebuilds every few years, has a lifetime losing record and seven playoff wins in 25 years.

Straw man #2. Never suggested the Steelers tank. Also think the Jags last year might have won 2 games, 3 at most, if they spent all their resources trying to get those other two wins. Sort of their "last run."

My point is and remains that pretending this team will be championship level is pie in the sky. I already explained in some detail why. Given that, what the hell was the point in re-signing Ben? "A last run"? At what, a 9-8 record, maybe 10-7? The team is not going to win a championship, is very likely not going to make the playoffs. The year to win was this past season, when they had a very, very good defense returning and Ben back.

The team had holes. Run blocking was terrible. Too many penalties. Ben limited to crossing patterns, followed by crossing patterns, followed by short throws, followed by shorter throws. But still a good team.

Washington game showed the team's defects were going to be a serious impediment. Loss to a lousy Bungles team with a backup QB showed again that Mike Tomlin is never going to get better and tweak the team into being better than their roster suggests. Quite the opposite. Now, same coach, lotsa starters gone. Time to retool.

Don't re-sign Ben. This year will suck. See what Tomlin can do, if anything. Draft to replace a lot of good players. Take your lumps, get out of cap hell, get the benefit of a good draft spot, use the cap room to get a quality starter at a position so you have more room with the draft, and blend in the quality players from this year's draft with the 2022 draft, and the "rebuild" is done. Took one season.

The team has issues, but tanking to draft higher is not their MO and frankly I wouldn't be a fan if it was. I don't follow anyone other than the Steelers anymore, so you'll have to let me know how your jags manage this year.

Read above. Unfortunately, no matter that you are unwilling to admit it, but the tactic of reworking Ben for a "last run" never made sense when they were so ****** on the cap.
 
The most similar deal is the Minnesota trade, which got the team a 4th and a 5th to move 6 spots down, not nine, but whatever. You obviously missed my point completely. I mean totally. People - you included - apparently think the Steelers would get some significant return from Jacksonville for the 33 to 24 move.

So you would be okay with the Steelers dropping from 24 to 33 to get maybe a 4th or a 5th?



If you think this team is going to "compete for a championship" this season, you are simply not being credible. I thought I had made very clear my view that this team was good, sometimes quite good, last season but obviously flawed as their 1-5 finish showed.

They have since lost a lot of players. A good team, with some flaws, that loses key starters at important positions (LT, C, RB, OLB, CB) is no longer a good team, just a team with the same flaws.



I guess I am going to be the first to tell you this ... the team competed and won with a HOF QB. That QB is slowing down, a lot. He is not the same as he was in 2008. The running game is not good. The offensive line is not good. The pass rush suffered a loss with the Dupree departure.

What will the Steelers look like this season? Maybe 9-8 at best, more likely 8-9. Tougher schedule, Ben a year older, lots of players lost, a mediocre coach, no room in the budget for FA's.

2022? Yikes.



No, if the team got rid of Tomlin four years ago, and hired a good young coach (Sean McVay, Sean McDermott come to mind), they are a better team. I am mystified as to why Steelers fans think Mike Tomlin gets the most out of a team.

He gets as much as the team gives. He was outcoached this past January by a guy who was not present.

Also, every franchise in history has times when it needs to rebuild. The Yankees - the most successful franchise in American sports history - won nothing between 1965 and 1975. The Boston Celtics - another incredibly successful franchise - did nothing between 1992 and 2003. It happens.

Generally, the rebuilds occur when a very good team gets old and loses its great players. Yankees and Mantle, Berra, Howard, Ford, etc. Celtics and Bird, McHale, Parrish.

Steelers and Troy, Harrison, Bettis, now Ben.



Okay. But on January 10, 2021, a lot of Steelers had two weeks off before that game. Did not seem to help.
I already said we agree To disagree. I’m not trying to turn this into a pissing contest.

The similar deal is not a 6 pick difference. A similar deal would be 9. You intimated it teams rarely offer “tons of picks”. I gave you examples from between a 6 and 9 pick difference the past three drafts. You asked me to provide hypotheticals on what would JAX need to make a move to PIT’s 24 slot. I have no idea, honestly. Neither do you either. Meyer’s foray into the NFL is unknown. Additionally, i can’t give the value of what a trade is worth, because it’s different for each team at the time on clock. There are so many variables involved that knowing or providing “value” of a pick one month away from the draft and are two weeks into FA it’s asinine to even speculate. And no I wouldn’t take the trade you speculated at all.

You are saying I’m not credible, because I said they will compete to win a championship? So the majority of the franchise’s fanbase are not credible. Considering that’s been the franchise’s mission statement since Dan and Chuck took over, that’s pretty arrogant on your part. i suppose you prognosticated a poor season week 1 last year because of Ben’s arm surgery. We’re you still griping all the way to when they went 11-0, or did you start after that loss to WAS? Just curious, you mentioned they were ”at times a very good team”, but the 1-5 finish showed they were flawed. So losing your starting OLB for the season in the 12th game, then having a starting CB miss two weeks including the playoff game because of COVID, not to mention the schedule BS is considered “flawed”? So what were they when they lost Bush and their bye week? Is that flawed?

First to tell me.......? What are you telling me? Ben isn’t the same QB he was 12 years ago? Really? Wow, very perceptive. Neither is Rodgers who hasn’t done anything in 10 years except win individual awards. Same for Brees.

You are allowed an opinion on what their record will be. Just like everyone else. You wanted Tomlin gone 4 years ago and replaced with McVay and McDermott? Guess what, Tomlin’s record is better than McDermott’s (who is a superb coach) in those four years (36-28). McVay has one more win (43-21) than Tomlin. Both had cap luxuries too.

You could resolve your mystery by either reading what the players who plays or have played for Tomlin say on social or print media, or contacting those players themselves. That would be a interesting post, but theres a snowball’s chance in hell you doing it. As you’ve already made up your mind what to think.

And to clarify, “no room in the budget for FA In 2022”? PIT will have approx $140-$155 in cap space next year. Sure TJ will get a new contract. Minkha the following year, but they will still have the latitude to spend on FA.

Again, we are all allowed an opinion, just as you are also allowed to follow whatever belief or narrative of opinion as well. I just respectfully disagree with both.
 
I already said we agree To disagree. I’m not trying to turn this into a pissing contest.

Great. Nothing more to read then. Wait ...

The similar deal is not a 6 pick difference. A similar deal would be 9. You intimated it teams rarely offer “tons of picks”. I gave you examples from between a 6 and 9 pick difference the past three drafts. You asked me to provide hypotheticals on what would JAX need to make a move to PIT’s 24 slot. I have no idea, honestly. Neither do you either. Meyer’s foray into the NFL is unknown. Additionally, i can’t give the value of what a trade is worth, because it’s different for each team at the time on clock. There are so many variables involved that knowing or providing “value” of a pick one month away from the draft and are two weeks into FA it’s asinine to even speculate. And no I wouldn’t take the trade you speculated at all.

Uhhh, I did not speculate about that trade. Read the title of the thread. And neither would the Steelers, a team that rarely drops down in return for trade capital.

You are saying I’m not credible, because I said they will compete to win a championship? So the majority of the franchise’s fanbase are not credible. Considering that’s been the franchise’s mission statement since Dan and Chuck took over, that’s pretty arrogant on your part.

You should look up the definition of arrogant. You and a bunch of others think this roster will compete for a championship. Great. That and $1 will get you a donut.

The 2020 roster was better than what the 2021 roster looks like it will be. The 2020 team lost to Washington, Bungles and Clowns for a reason. The problems remain; the roster is not as good.

i suppose you prognosticated a poor season week 1 last year because of Ben’s arm surgery. We’re you still griping all the way to when they went 11-0, or did you start after that loss to WAS? Just curious, you mentioned they were ”at times a very good team”, but the 1-5 finish showed they were flawed. So losing your starting OLB for the season in the 12th game, then having a starting CB miss two weeks including the playoff game because of COVID, not to mention the schedule BS is considered “flawed”? So what were they when they lost Bush and their bye week? Is that flawed?

Uhhh, no, I thought the team was very good for the majority of the season. I thought that a repeat of the 2019 defense together with Ben would make it a team that could compete for a championship.

When the team struggled against a terrible Dallas team, I explained it away. When they lost to the Not-Redskins, I saw a repeat of Tomlin's poor management, poor preparation. When they lost to the Bungles and their QB, cannot even remember the guy's name, it was pretty damn clear the team was not as good as I had thought, and nowhere as good as I hoped.

And the OLB who injured his knew, followed by the 1-5 finish, is not returning. Well, he's returning, but not wearing a Steelers uniform.

First to tell me.......? What are you telling me? Ben isn’t the same QB he was 12 years ago? Really? Wow, very perceptive. Neither is Rodgers who hasn’t done anything in 10 years except win individual awards. Same for Brees.

Is that supposed to make me feel MORE optimistic about the chances in 2021?

You are allowed an opinion on what their record will be. Just like everyone else. You wanted Tomlin gone 4 years ago and replaced with McVay and McDermott? Guess what, Tomlin’s record is better than McDermott’s (who is a superb coach) in those four years (36-28). McVay has one more win (43-21) than Tomlin. Both had cap luxuries too.

Their teams adapt, take advantage of an opponent's weakness, seem to show up prepared even against a bad opponent. At halftime last year, McDermott said his team needed to change to account for the Steelers' pass rush, while Tomlin said "we just need to do better." That sums up the difference in less than a minute. Tomlin will keep banging his head against a wall and wait for Ben to put together a late drive to pull out a victory. McDermott will throw 10 passes to Stefon Diggs because he is covered by a LBer. Tomlin will not change the coverage because he thinks the LB'er "just needs to do a better job."

You could resolve your mystery by either reading what the players who plays or have played for Tomlin say on social or print media, or contacting those players themselves. That would be a interesting post, but theres a snowball’s chance in hell you doing it. As you’ve already made up your mind what to think.

Do you have Heyward's number? Watt's? Text them and tell them to give me a call.

Have I heard from quite a few - not unanimous, not close - that Tomlin is a great coach? Sure. But I have eyes. The list of inexplicable losses is way too long.

And we sure as hell will see how good a coach Tomlin is this year. No doubt about that.

And to clarify, “no room in the budget for FA In 2022”? PIT will have approx $140-$155 in cap space next year. Sure TJ will get a new contract. Minkha the following year, but they will still have the latitude to spend on FA.

Calm down. You misread my post. Specifically, I said:

What will the Steelers look like this season? Maybe 9-8 at best, more likely 8-9. Tougher schedule, Ben a year older, lots of players lost, a mediocre coach, no room in the budget for FA's.

Discussing 2021, not 2022.

Again, we are all allowed an opinion, just as you are also allowed to follow whatever belief or narrative of opinion as well. I just respectfully disagree with both.

We are sure going to see if this is a championship caliber team.

Since you are of that belief, I presume if the Steelers go 9-8 and miss the playoffs again, you will admit Tomlin did not do a good job?
 
The Steelers need to find their QB of the future and adjust their O-line, but the starting units for 2021 will be fairly young. The core of our defense is young and our WR and RB groups will be very young.
 
Great. Nothing more to read then. Wait ...

If nothing to read, then why reply? You want the last word?

Uhhh, I did not speculate about that trade. Read the title of the thread. And neither would the Steelers, a team that rarely drops down in return for trade capital

In never said you did. I was responding to your Op Ed from the title regarding your outdated value chart. You intimated multiple picks from the scenario wouldn’t happen. I provided three examples from the last three drafts where multiple picks were gained in similar circumstances, primarily dropping at least 6, but no more than 9 spots from the 1st to the 2nd.

You should look up the definition of arrogant. You and a bunch of others think this roster will compete for a championship. Great. That and $1 will get you a donut.

The 2020 roster was better than what the 2021 roster looks like it will be. The 2020 team lost to Washington, Bungles and Clowns for a reason. The problems remain; the roster is not as good.

I wouldn't call myself or others who have similar opinions arrogant. Rather instead the term to use would be optimistic. The difference is I, and I’d gather the majority of the fan base, are optimistic the team regardless whomever the head coach is at this moment and has a chance to win a championship. Your position, which is your right by no means, seems to follow the negative path of being a defeatist until the change you want is instituted. However, if they are successful without the change, then it must be everything besides the head coach for the reason of success.

Uhhh, no, I thought the team was very good for the majority of the season. I thought that a repeat of the 2019 defense together with Ben would make it a team that could compete for a championship.

When the team struggled against a terrible Dallas team, I explained it away. When they lost to the Not-Redskins, I saw a repeat of Tomlin's poor management, poor preparation. When they lost to the Bungles and their QB, cannot even remember the guy's name, it was pretty damn clear the team was not as good as I had thought, and nowhere as good as I hoped.

And the OLB who injured his knew, followed by the 1-5 finish, is not returning. Well, he's returning, but not wearing a Steelers uniform.

Yet, while you “explained away“ the struggles in the DAL game they still won three more games before the FUBAR schedule gave them 3 games in 12 days. Including playing the said WAS game 5 days after a mid week game. Again, an unprecedented occurrence for the league. Yet, all the blame in your words appears focused on what the head coach did In that game and not the execution from the offensive side of the ball.

Is that supposed to make me feel MORE optimistic about the chances in 2021?

Posit?, You have more confidence in a rookie QB than Roethlisberger for 2021?

Their teams adapt, take advantage of an opponent's weakness, seem to show up prepared even against a bad opponent. At halftime last year, McDermott said his team needed to change to account for the Steelers' pass rush, while Tomlin said "we just need to do better." That sums up the difference in less than a minute. Tomlin will keep banging his head against a wall and wait for Ben to put together a late drive to pull out a victory. McDermott will throw 10 passes to Stefon Diggs because he is covered by a LBer. Tomlin will not change the coverage because he thinks the LB'er "just needs to do a better job."

Can you see the trend in your responses? Props for McDermott as he is a very good coach, but still BUF hasn’t won anything except a AFCE title. Note I prefaced the team and not the head coach and Tomlin has more wins in the same span as McDermott’s stint as head coach.

Do you have Heyward's number? Watt's? Text them and tell them to give me a call.

Have I heard from quite a few - not unanimous, not close - that Tomlin is a great coach? Sure. But I have eyes. The list of inexplicable losses is way too long.

And we sure as hell will see how good a coach Tomlin is this year. No doubt about that.

No, but you could follow him and many other players on Twitter or IG and ask them. Most of us have eyes as well, and we all see what we want to see, how we perceive is the difference.

Calm down. You misread my post. Specifically, I said:


Discussing 2021, not 2022.

I am perfectly calm. Who is taking offense in this board debate? In regards to your statement above. Clearly my error, but 2021? Really? You complaining about cap space? Half the teams were over the cap three weeks before the final $184.5 was listed. You had all these vets being released, and now you have quality players, who were cut, taking one year deals because they know 2022 will be a windfall. Had their been no COVID chances are we keep Bud with the additional $20 mil in cap space.

Which side of the fence you shouting from? “They don’t spend enough on FA?“ Or “why are we always at the cap?

We are sure going to see if this is a championship caliber team.

Since you are of that belief, I presume if the Steelers go 9-8 and miss the playoffs again, you will admit Tomlin did not do a good job?

Yep, every year. And I will continue to do so, regardless of who is the head coach, GM, or QB. I’ve seen 8 SBs and 6 victories. More than any other fan base not tied to an asterisk. It’s worked for a long time (barring the mid to late 80s), no reason to change.

We are barely one month into the new league year and FA. We haven’t had the draft yet nor OTAs or camps and you are ready to call it a wasted season. That’s fine, your prerogative. Whatever record they have after this year or whether they make the playoffs will be based more on what my interpretation of whether Tomlin AND the players did a good or poor job. If they don’t win a championship, then both he and players failed what the organization has set out to do. Tomlin, nor Colbert are planning long term to get higher picks in drafts, which most of the teams who follow the method you proclaim, do.

I‘d gather you will have last words, which is fine. No problem. We each have our own opinions. That’s it, opinions. Nothing else.
 
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