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HCMT

diver said:
This isn't the 1960s anymore. I just believe there really aren't any schemes out there that nobody has seen. Which means that without question the most talented teams are the more successful. Actually I think it is becoming a combination of talent and who, at playoff time, has the least amount of injuries.

Tomlin's schemes aren't behind anybody. Get a big nose in there who can play and good ILB play the scheme will be fine. Get a QB who is willing to play action and can move a little bit and a line that blocks somebody, the scheme will be fine.
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Then how come nobody has hired his guys away despite his relatively consistent success and perception as a model franchise?

Shouldn’t there be at least one by this stage?
 
diver said:
What is "underperforming" in your profession? Or better yet, what is "performing?" Do you have to win a championship at your work every year to maintain your job? It is not a good comparison.
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It is hard to quantify but if you are in a top position and getting passed by your competitors that could be a red flag. Or in Tomlins case you’ve just presided over one of the most unproductive five year stretches in the modern history of your organization? That could also be a problem. So much of it is subjective, but I don’t see much that tells us Tomlin is trending in the right direction with vital metrics or KPI. We’ve got status quo while other organizations have moved ahead of us. And I don’t think this is a guy that’s going to reinvent himself. We have what we have. Is it good enough? I don’t think so.
 
SojournerSteel said:
Then how come nobody has hired his guys away despite his relatively consistent success and perception as a model franchise?

Shouldn’t there be at least one by this stage?
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No. He really didn't ever have that young on the come type coordinators. They were mostly older guys or like in Haley's case, was to abrasive.
 
SojournerSteel said:
It is hard to quantify but if you are in a top position and getting passed by your competitors that could be a red flag. Or in Tomlins case you’ve just presided over one of the most unproductive five year stretches in the modern history of your organization? That could also be a problem. So much of it is subjective, but I don’t see much that tells us Tomlin is trending in the right direction with vital metrics or KPI. We’ve got status quo while other organizations have moved ahead of us. And I don’t think this is a guy that’s going to reinvent himself. We have what we have. Is it good enough? I don’t think so.
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And here comes the spoiled bit. How many fan bases would kill to have the last five years that the Steelers have had and you call the most unproductive five year stretches in modern history of the organization. I'd guess all but maybe three or four teams in the league would love it.
 
It all comes down to your perception of success. I have always rated Tomlin as an 80-85 coach, good enough to win during the season, but not at the end when it really counts. If there were no playoff championships, I would hitch my wagon to Tomlin without a second thought. I view success as making the playoffs, winning games, getting to the title game occasionally. Is that unrealistic on my part, maybe it is maybe it isn’t. The Steelers ownership is first and foremost about the money, this is why they haven’t made a move in the last decade. Seats are still filled, waiting list is still long, and televised games rake in the money. Until ANY of that changes, the HC position will not change.
 
SojournerSteel said:
Even if we were a clergy member being a good guy would not be enough in most cases if the church wasn’t growing.
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I don't think you really want to use the clergy/church as your point of reference here, considering all the kid-diddling and cover ups that went on

but i apologize if i mis-interpreted that
 
SojournerSteel said:
It is hard to quantify but if you are in a top position and getting passed by your competitors that could be a red flag. Or in Tomlins case you’ve just presided over one of the most unproductive five year stretches in the modern history of your organization? That could also be a problem. So much of it is subjective, but I don’t see much that tells us Tomlin is trending in the right direction with vital metrics or KPI. We’ve got status quo while other organizations have moved ahead of us. And I don’t think this is a guy that’s going to reinvent himself. We have what we have. Is it good enough? I don’t think so.
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Ok, but don't compare it to an everyday profession like we all have. Most of us go to work and put in a solid day. I know I certainly try to and you probably do as well. Tomlin does that too. Our expectations are much higher for him and the team. I object to the comparison to just any profession. Probably most of us are not expected to win a "championship" all the time, whatever that may be depending on the profession. We are just expected to do a good job.

I don't know that other organizations have moved ahead. Let's see what the staying power is of the Bengals, or Rams, or whatever the hot team is right now. Teams come and go, but the Steelers, Ravens, Patriots, Packers always seem to be in the mix somewhere.

I do feel the need to keep saying I would have let Tomlin go and went in another direction. I'd have taken the risk. However, it is a risk, know that. The devil you know vs. the devil you don't. I just get the sense with some of the anti-Tomlin people that once he is replaced, boom, championship!!!
 
you know what all of the teams that moved ahead of us has, a young QB that they were able to build around with draft picks and FA. We haven't had that luxury until this draft, but they have been adding pieces. They finally had money to spend and are still tweaking the team. For the most part, the Steelers have been rather consistent the past 5 years. They have the DPOTY, a solid 2nd year RB, a young and upcoming WR corp and playmakers in other positions. They are in a good position.
 
paperclip said:
I don't think you really want to use the clergy/church as your point of reference here, considering all the kid-diddling and cover ups that went on

but i apologize if i mis-interpreted that
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Well if that one’s problematic then let’s just say you were a really good guy and working fundraising for Shriners Children’s Hospital or St Jude’s or the United Way and you were failing to meet your goals. It probably wouldn’t matter that you were a good guy. Wouldn’t be enough to keep you in the position.
 
thesteelcity said:
you know what all of the teams that moved ahead of us has, a young QB that they were able to build around with draft picks and FA. We haven't had that luxury until this draft, but they have been adding pieces. They finally had money to spend and are still tweaking the team. For the most part, the Steelers have been rather consistent the past 5 years. They have the DPOTY, a solid 2nd year RB, a young and upcoming WR corp and playmakers in other positions. They are in a good position.
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This. The Bengals will have trouble keeping competitive when Burrow is off his rookie contract and demanding a third of their cap space.
 
MT~Forged said:
It all comes down to your perception of success. I have always rated Tomlin as an 80-85 coach, good enough to win during the season, but not at the end when it really counts. If there were no playoff championships, I would hitch my wagon to Tomlin without a second thought. I view success as making the playoffs, winning games, getting to the title game occasionally. Is that unrealistic on my part, maybe it is maybe it isn’t. The Steelers ownership is first and foremost about the money, this is why they haven’t made a move in the last decade. Seats are still filled, waiting list is still long, and televised games rake in the money. Until ANY of that changes, the HC position will not change.
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I think one could also argue that once the team got fully on board with the Shield and changing the NFL by outlawing Defense and allowing Rog to target its best players, the writing was on the wall that it was about much more than wins and losses and Lombardis. That’s speaking nothing of the social engineering identification of the franchise.

But of course that’s what many of the robber barons did of old. Once vast success was achieved in a given field relative to competitors, at once it was about Charitable foundations, legacy, and endowments more than profit and loss.

Judging by their actions, I just don’t think the Steelers are in it to 100% win it. Can you even imagine Al Davis not fighting the league tooth and nail if it targeted his best players? Or even his best outlaws?

The modern Steelers said little to nothing about patriot cheating. Chuck Noll by contrast had Zero tolerance for the criminal element.
 
SojournerSteel said:
I think one could also argue that once the team got fully on board with the Shield and changing the NFL by outlawing Defense and allowing Rog to target its best players, the writing was on the wall that it was about much more than wins and losses and Lombardis. That’s speaking nothing of the social engineering identification of the franchise.

But of course that’s what many of the robber barons did of old. Once vast success was achieved in a given field relative to competitors, at once it was about Charitable foundations, legacy, and endowments more than profit and loss.

Judging by their actions, I just don’t think the Steelers are in it to 100% win it. Can you even imagine Al Davis not fighting the league tooth and nail if it targeted his best players? Or even his best outlaws?

The modern Steelers said little to nothing about patriot cheating. Chuck Noll by contrast had Zero tolerance for the criminal element.
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Ernie Holmes?
 
There is a jump between position coaches and coordinators. And let's face reality. A lot of the organizations that are hiring are doing so because they have a losing culture. But, at least teams are interested. Like if you think Saleh in NY is a crappy coach you need your head examined. But it may be impossible to turn that ship around. There has to be something between Cleveland and the Raiders carousel and appointing a guy for life because he won a championship almost 15 years ago.
 
thesteelcity said:
you know what all of the teams that moved ahead of us has, a young QB that they were able to build around with draft picks and FA. We haven't had that luxury until this draft, but they have been adding pieces. They finally had money to spend and are still tweaking the team. For the most part, the Steelers have been rather consistent the past 5 years. They have the DPOTY, a solid 2nd year RB, a young and upcoming WR corp and playmakers in other positions. They are in a good position.
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diver said:
Ernie Holmes?
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Well I mean in terms of institutionalized malfeasance by “other” organizations! Lol it’s different when it’s our” SOB!
 
FatsHolmes said:
This. The Bengals will have trouble keeping competitive when Burrow is off his rookie contract and demanding a third of their cap space.
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Chiefs are a good example of this. Holmes' salary has caused some jettison. They were very fortunate to get Humphries in the draft and not have to outrite pay a center.



Salute the nation
 
SteelerSask2 said:
No Mike Tomlin never coached AL V. In anything other than as being a professional and as being a good man. Fact. Wtf do you think he knows about pro level oline play. Like grow the **** up. That's what assistant coaches are for.
I've watched this team and I'm gonna focus on the defense. Cause that is what he coaches. Those are the guys he is capable of helping coach up. And to the best of my recollection they have never had a problem fixed by coaching up anything in mid season. They fix it in the off season with infusion of talent. Case in point. The inside run last season.
Your point about Dupree is laughable. Dupree was to the point where he looked like a complete bust, they gave him an option based upon improvement. He was also playing across from an all world talent. The Titans made a mammoth error signing him at that cost coming off ACL reconstruction. That is your point of the CMT coach up. Really?
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I disagree.
 
Whether you are a lover or hater of Tomlin these are three key facts: 1) Tomlin has always been a player's coach, a lot of players genuinely want to play for him (this results in wins in games we shouldn't win); 2) Tomlin is questionable in game management (whether time, challenges, sometimes missing the clear Xs and Os, etc). This results in losses in games we shouldn't lose; 3) The Steelers have been terrible at bringing in coordinators, review people, etc. to fill the weaknesses.

Tomlin deserves the praise for 1 and the criticism for 2. However, the Steelers, if they wanted and want to ride Tomlin, they have done a **** job of 3 and deserve the criticism for it. Tomlin is not without blame and neither is the organization. The organization should either move on from Tomlin OR surround him with the folks he needs. I am NOT advocating one or the other, just saying those are the realistic scenarios if you want to win and aren't wearing rose-tinted glasses.
 
Steel Reign said:
Whether you are a lover or hater of Tomlin these are three key facts: 1) Tomlin has always been a player's coach, a lot of players genuinely want to play for him (this results in wins in games we shouldn't win); 2) Tomlin is questionable in game management (whether time, challenges, sometimes missing the clear Xs and Os, etc). This results in losses in games we shouldn't lose; 3) The Steelers have been terrible at bringing in coordinators, review people, etc. to fill the weaknesses.

Tomlin deserves the praise for 1 and the criticism for 2. However, the Steelers, if they wanted and want to ride Tomlin, they have done a **** job of 3 and deserve the criticism for it. Tomlin is not without blame and neither is the organization. The organization should either move on from Tomlin OR surround him with the folks he needs. I am NOT advocating one or the other, just saying those are the realistic scenarios if you want to win and aren't wearing rose-tinted glasses.
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As far as #1 goes always being the friend if you will leads to issues and losing games they shouldn't. IMO that sword cuts both ways
 
Steel Reign said:
Whether you are a lover or hater of Tomlin these are three key facts: 1) Tomlin has always been a player's coach, a lot of players genuinely want to play for him (this results in wins in games we shouldn't win); 2) Tomlin is questionable in game management (whether time, challenges, sometimes missing the clear Xs and Os, etc). This results in losses in games we shouldn't lose; 3) The Steelers have been terrible at bringing in coordinators, review people, etc. to fill the weaknesses.

Tomlin deserves the praise for 1 and the criticism for 2. However, the Steelers, if they wanted and want to ride Tomlin, they have done a **** job of 3 and deserve the criticism for it. Tomlin is not without blame and neither is the organization. The organization should either move on from Tomlin OR surround him with the folks he needs. I am NOT advocating one or the other, just saying those are the realistic scenarios if you want to win and aren't wearing rose-tinted glasses.
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They really seem to be giving Tomlin more control and ceding things to his PR shadow. I really don’t think Tomlin will win another playoff game much less contend for championships anytime soon.
 
SteelerSask2 said:
Meaning I do look at the guys strengths, but you are absolutely blind to the faults.
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Not blind. Just choose not to dwell on a topic that I, personally, cannot change.

Last time I checked there was only one perfect human to live on this planet and that was over 2000 years ago...
 
bermudasteel said:
Not blind. Just choose not to dwell on a topic that I, personally, cannot change.

Last time I checked there was only one perfect human to live on this planet and that was over 2000 years ago...
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Which of these things can any if us change. I'm not asking for perfection I d just not prefer a lifetime appointment to a guy who won championships with another coaches talent and leftover coaches.
 
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