Four guys on D playing Pro Bowl All Pro level

[SteelerFan448]

This is true, then what do you do with him? Certainly not give him 16+per season? It will be rough to replace his production, but he's not signing a cap friendly deal when he's a free agent. He's going to want to test the market. So that leaves tagging him. No way I pay him market value on a long term contract, that would be idiotic.

Why not give him that? That would put him around the 10th highest paid edge defender in the league. The cost for good players at that position only goes up and the salary cap will continue to rise. You don't know that he will want to test the market. Maybe he'll want to sign that deal to stay in Pittsburgh.

I'm not as concern with his past performance because the coaches really didn't do a good job developing him. It was known that he was raw coming out of Kentucky and you figure that it would take at least two years for him to learn the position. Add in that Joey Porter was his coach and you figure he probably didn't gain much in terms of learning about how to play the position from him. Then the Steelers kept dropping Bud into coverage, so naturally his pass rushing numbers would be down. They switched him back to his natural side last year and this year they're letting him get after the quarterback.

It's actually kind of stupid to say you won't pay a guy his market value and that's exactly what the Steelers do. In fact, sometimes people think they pay guys above market value (Pouncey, Heyward, Tuitt, etc.) at the time of the signing and after two years it looks like they have good deals.

 

[Hines57]

I'm hung on a specific (cap) number because there's teams out there with tons of cap space that can throw a pile of money at him, we can't do that. It's not a specific number I'm hung up on, it's the cap. We are only a projected 6 million under the cap next season. He's going to want close to a max deal, something we can not give him, nor does he deserve that. You don't want to over spend in free agency for minimal production, you also don't want to pay a max deal for above average production either.

If minimal production to you is a career year for Bud, then I want that career year he's having. I was as hard or harder on Bud than ANYONE here. He's shown that he is an elite pass rusher. He did play with injuries in other seasons and it looks like he's healthy this year.

The team will work on the cap number. Just because other teams will throw more money at him doesn't mean you let an elite pass rusher hit the open market. You franchise or transition tag the man and negotiate a better contract for the team. This is something the team has had to do in the past and ideally they would have locked him up sooner but all of us who had negative things to say about the team would have reamed Colbert and company for handing Bud a long term deal after last year. He played the show me year of his rookie year and he has shown us. The man has earned his contract and he should be in black and gold.

You're going to overpay to replace him with a UFA, which based on what you said we don't have them cap room to do. If we go bargain hunting and get a Barron or Burnett style UFA (LaDarius Green ring a bell?), we don't have a first round pick to get a top tier pass rusher either. OLB is not a position you want to elevate an UDFA to come in behind someone. Harrison was an exception to that but we had seen flashes of him before we cut Porter. We have seen nothing behind Dupree that lets us know Adeniyi or Skipper can do the same thing or better.

The rest of the guys we need to pay to keep this team together will get paid when its their time, Watt, Minkah, Cam. Guys you can easily replace, you don't extend and you draft or sign a replacement for.

 

[Coryea]

Why not give him that? That would put him around the 10th highest paid edge defender in the league. The cost for good players at that position only goes up and the salary cap will continue to rise. You don't know that he will want to test the market. Maybe he'll want to sign that deal to stay in Pittsburgh.

I'm not as concern with his past performance because the coaches really didn't do a good job developing him. It was known that he was raw coming out of Kentucky and you figure that it would take at least two years for him to learn the position. Add in that Joey Porter was his coach and you figure he probably didn't gain much in terms of learning about how to play the position from him. Then the Steelers kept dropping Bud into coverage, so naturally his pass rushing numbers would be down. They switched him back to his natural side last year and this year they're letting him get after the quarterback.

It's actually kind of stupid to say you won't pay a guy his market value and that's exactly what the Steelers do. In fact, sometimes people think they pay guys above market value (Pouncey, Heyward, Tuitt, etc.) at the time of the signing and after two years it looks like they have good deals.

Pouncey, Heyward were considered as among the best at their position, Dupree is not that. He's had one good year out of 5. That's why I'm not giving him a huge contract, I'm not sold on him, and neither were the Steelers or they'd have signed him long term last offseason instead of just using the 5th year option on him. Why wouldn't he want to test the market after the Steelers didn't sign him long term?
What if he wants Von Miller/ Mack type money, and there's teams out there willing to give him that, are you going to ok with us matching that?

 

[SteelerFan448]

Pouncey, Heyward were considered as among the best at their position, Dupree is not that. He's had one good year out of 5. That's why I'm not giving him a huge contract, I'm not sold on him, and neither were the Steelers or they'd have signed him long term last offseason instead of just using the 5th year option on him. Why wouldn't he want to test the market after the Steelers didn't sign him long term?
What if he wants Von Miller/ Mack type money, and there's teams out there willing to give him that, are you going to ok with us matching that?

Many on this board said Pouncey was overrated and paid too much. I'm a huge Pouncey fan and didn't think he should be the highest paid center in the league at the time of his contract signed this offseason. Heyward didn't establish himself as one of the best at his position at the time of his contract. He was good, but not one of the best. If the Steelers offer Dupree a fair deal this offseason, I wouldn't be surprised if he bypasses free agency and takes the deal because he knows what to expect here.

You seriously think some team is going to offer Dupree $24 million a year? That's no where near in the ballpark of the $16.5 million you keep throwing out there.

 

[Coryea]

Many on this board said Pouncey was overrated and paid too much. I'm a huge Pouncey fan and didn't think he should be the highest paid center in the league at the time of his contract signed this offseason. Heyward didn't establish himself as one of the best at his position at the time of his contract. He was good, but not one of the best. If the Steelers offer Dupree a fair deal this offseason, I wouldn't be surprised if he bypasses free agency and takes the deal because he knows what to expect here.

You seriously think some team is going to offer Dupree $24 million a year? That's no where near in the ballpark of the $16.5 million you keep throwing out there.

Who knows, Mack signed that contract in 2018, when Bud signs his deal, the cap will have went up again, I'd be shocked if someone offered him that much, but it wouldn't surprise me. The 16.5 number is the cap number, it's not set in stone as his floor, ceiling, or asking price, it's just a point of reference.
They also signed Pouncey and Cam before the final year, not after their final season. If the Steelers saw something so good in Dupree, why didn't they sign him long term last season?
My point still remains, the cap, we don't have much room under the cap next season. If this was baseball, hell yes sign him now, but I'm not killing our cap on a guy that has had one good season, that just happened to be a contract year. If that guy is Watt or Minkah, then yes, I'm pushing money from here to there, restructuring anyone I can, etc. to make that happen.

 

[wig]

First off, regarding Pouncey - I was pretty hard on him early because he was ALWAYS hurt. Drove me crazy. But, he got past the injury bug and he became one of the most dependable, stable centers in the league. I like me some Pouncey just fine.

Now, cause I like numbers...

1.2 forced fumbles a year.
5.7 sacks a year.
36.4 combined tackles a year.
9 QB hits a year.

compared to...

4 forced fumbles a year.
10.8 sacks a year.
53 combined tackles a year.
20.33 QB hits a year.

Ultimately, Bud isn't 1/2 the linebacker Watt is. It isn't even close when you actually look at the numbers.

I'm perfectly glad Bud is having a career year. I am not impressed AT ALL that he is only having his career year when it's a 5th year money year. And even IF Dupree continues with his career season and hits that magical 10 sack number... That's T.J.s ******* AVERAGE.

Dupree is a nice guy. A solid guy (at least this season), but he aint worth 16+ million no way, no how. If somebody wants to pay him bank - let em. If Bud wants to stay in Pittsburgh for a reasonable contract, great!

 

[Coryea]

If minimal production to you is a career year for Bud, then I want that career year he's having. I was as hard or harder on Bud than ANYONE here. He's shown that he is an elite pass rusher. He did play with injuries in other seasons and it looks like he's healthy this year.

The team will work on the cap number. Just because other teams will throw more money at him doesn't mean you let an elite pass rusher hit the open market. You franchise or transition tag the man and negotiate a better contract for the team. This is something the team has had to do in the past and ideally they would have locked him up sooner but all of us who had negative things to say about the team would have reamed Colbert and company for handing Bud a long term deal after last year. He played the show me year of his rookie year and he has shown us. The man has earned his contract and he should be in black and gold.

You're going to overpay to replace him with a UFA, which based on what you said we don't have them cap room to do. If we go bargain hunting and get a Barron or Burnett style UFA (LaDarius Green ring a bell?), we don't have a first round pick to get a top tier pass rusher either. OLB is not a position you want to elevate an UDFA to come in behind someone. Harrison was an exception to that but we had seen flashes of him before we cut Porter. We have seen nothing behind Dupree that lets us know Adeniyi or Skipper can do the same thing or better.

The rest of the guys we need to pay to keep this team together will get paid when its their time, Watt, Minkah, Cam. Guys you can easily replace, you don't extend and you draft or sign a replacement for.

Dupree is not an elite pass rusher, he's a good pass rusher, but not elite. He ranks like 40th in QB pressures, and is 14th in sacks.
I never said just let him walk out the door, I'm saying I'm not breaking the bank on him and making one of the highest paid OLB's in the NFL, because he's not one of them. I'd tag him, but how often do players get tagged then agree on a long term deal? Especially players who were not signed by their team heading into their final season. The Steelers basically said, we don't see much in you to warrant a long term deal, so we'll just exercise your 5th year option.

Maybe we go free agent hunting and end up with Joe Haden, DeAngelo Williams, Steve Nelson.

 

[wig]

Interesting. Although Porter had a great career in Pittsburgh and is one of the "greats", T.J.s numbers are statistically better.

Kinda cool.

Conversely (and we don't even have 1 season under his belt yet, so clearly this is skewed a bit...)

Bush isn't looking bad compared to Levon Kirkland.

I'll take that for both guys!

 

[slashsteel]

I just don't see Bud being a difficult long term sign. We'll see.............

 

[Coach]

3 of the 4 are, Bud is playing well, but he's similar to Gildon 2.0, he gets his sacks when other guys do the work and he's there to finish it off. Not a bad thing, but he rarely just flat out beats his guy and makes the play.
I know I'll hear **** for that from Ark, but it's true. Again it's not a bad thing, but Watt is an all pro OLB, Dupree isn't on his level

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Bud is soloing some sacks and forcing fumbles. Give the man his due. The Steelers have a very good defense.

 

[Stryker]

No love for Joe Haden or Hilton? Those guys are killing it also . The D is a strength, and the only way the Steelers will get an offensive player to the pro bowl is if they play offensive line.

Bud Dupree is fools gold. He is playing well, it's his best year, and he's being disruptive. He's also benefiting from having Watt on the other side, so offenses have to game plan for Watt. Bud is usually single manned, Watt is doubled. Even if he hits double digit sacks, it's from playing opposite from a DPOY candidate. This combined with his propensity to have nagging injuries that effect his explosiveness, are reasons to pass.

Plus the Steelers are already against the cap from all of their FA signings this past year. That AB money is already spent. No way to I rectructure the roster to keep Bud, when in 2 years you have to try and keep the core of Conner/JuJu/Watt. It's called playing the long game, and Bud is not a part of that plan IMHO.

 

[Hines57]

I'm not keeping Conner in two years. He's easily replaceable. Watt is a given to be paid very well. Juju should be resigned but may become a cap casualty. We will see how this all plays out.

 

[Litos]

I'm not keeping Conner in two years. He's easily replaceable. Watt is a given to be paid very well. Juju should be resigned but may become a cap casualty. We will see how this all plays out.

Conner will be cheap to keep, often injured + local kid = hometown discount.



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[Coryea]

No love for Joe Haden or Hilton? Those guys are killing it also . The D is a strength, and the only way the Steelers will get an offensive player to the pro bowl is if they play offensive line.

Bud Dupree is fools gold. He is playing well, it's his best year, and he's being disruptive. He's also benefiting from having Watt on the other side, so offenses have to game plan for Watt. Bud is usually single manned, Watt is doubled. Even if he hits double digit sacks, it's from playing opposite from a DPOY candidate. This combined with his propensity to have nagging injuries that effect his explosiveness, are reasons to pass.

Plus the Steelers are already against the cap from all of their FA signings this past year. That AB money is already spent. No way to I rectructure the roster to keep Bud, when in 2 years you have to try and keep the core of Conner/JuJu/Watt. It's called playing the long game, and Bud is not a part of that plan IMHO.

Perfectly said! Also Cam is playing at a very high level, his last season under contract is next season, they have to resign him. He won't break the bank, but he'll get a nice contract still, probably this offseason. JuJu should be this offseason, he'll get a nice contract, can't let him go, especially if Ben is coming back. The rest of the WR's are inconsistent.
So Cam and Juju this offseason, Watt after next season, and Minkah the year after that. Watt and Minkah are going to be paid close to the highest paid guys at their position. Also don't forget Nelson, who has been our best CB, teams hardly throw at him, if we plan on extending him, it'll be after next season as well.

I don't know how you fit Bud in there, who will get near top OLB $$$$ as a free agent.

And we need a TE, the OL is getting older as well.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Bud Dupree is fools gold. He is playing well, it's his best year, and he's being disruptive. He's also benefiting from having Watt on the other side, so offenses have to game plan for Watt. Bud is usually single manned, Watt is doubled. Even if he hits double digit sacks, it's from playing opposite from a DPOY candidate. This combined with his propensity to have nagging injuries that effect his explosiveness, are reasons to pass.

I wouldn't call him fools gold. Dupree has a sack every 91.6 snaps. The Steelers top two backups (Chickillo and Ola) have combined for one sack every 904 snaps. In fact, they have combined for a half a sack this season. You'd think between the scheme and the other talent around them, even a backup player could muster at least one sack one the year.

 

[Stryker]

I wouldn't call him fools gold. Dupree has a sack every 91.6 snaps. The Steelers top two backups (Chickillo and Ola) have combined for one sack every 904 snaps. In fact, they have combined for a half a sack this season. You'd think between the scheme and the other talent around them, even a backup player could muster at least one sack one the year.

Great point SF. I would still contend that Dupree benefits from Watt on the opposite side. Also you are right in your numbers. His Sparq is freakish. It gives him more chances to excel opposite of Watt, but I would also contend, in a full season, Ola could be an 8-10sack guy opposite Watt.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Great point SF. I would still contend that Dupree benefits from Watt on the opposite side. Also you are right in your numbers. His Sparq is freakish. It gives him more chances to excel opposite of Watt, but I would also contend, in a full season, Ola could be an 8-10sack guy opposite Watt.

I haven't watched Ola specifically, but has he generated any pressure while in there? I know we saw some flashes during the preseason, yet I can't recall much once the regular season started. We all know Chickillo isn't getting to the QB.