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Finney and Nix need to play more

I like the kid, but want to see what he does against top run Ds.
 
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Coach said:
Whatever Munchak recommends is fine by me but Tomlin picks who starts. What makes you so sure Tomlin will take his advice?

Usually, it takes an injury or a below average starting vet for Tomlin to give a younger player a chance. But we've seen Finney start and he has had two very good performances.
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Ummm, it usually takes an injury or a below average starting vet for ANY coach to give another player a chance. I mean, if the starter is above average, why replace him unless he's injured? If he's below average, then of course you'd replace him.
You state something that is true of pretty much ANY "real" COACH and make it out to be something that is singular to Tomlin and bad.
 
Coach said:
Better yet, we can trade Foster for something. With Bell getting huge holes with the Finny and Nix combo, coaching 101 says play them more.
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Makes sense. Trade Foster and weaken OL depth. Wanna trade Gilbert too? Hubbard did a passable job while he was out.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
Ummm, it usually takes an injury or a below average starting vet for ANY coach to give another player a chance. I mean, if the starter is above average, why replace him unless he's injured? If he's below average, then of course you'd replace him.
You state something that is true of pretty much ANY "real" COACH and make it out to be something that is singular to Tomlin and bad.
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Steel, Didn't Tomlin take too long to replace J Jones, a below average starter? I would say yes. Do you agree or disagree?


Foster is average. What did he get as a free agent on his second? See my point?

Finney opens up the running game, as he is a dual threat to inline-block to root out and push his man sideways or backward or pull with good results. Playing next to Pouncey and Decastro, the defense will be guessing who is going to pull where, and that makes us even harder to defend.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
Makes sense. Trade Foster and weaken OL depth. Wanna trade Gilbert too? Hubbard did a passable job while he was out.
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This depends. If the Steelers get a 3rd round pick and can unload Foster's cap number with Finney being a better player, it makes sense. You really do not want to allocate 3.6 million a year ( Fosters 2017 cap number ) on a backup OL Player, and guard is not that hard of a position to fill.

I think Gilbert is a near Pro bowl level tackle. Hubbard surprised a bit but I think he's become a liability is he played a string of games.
 
Coach said:
Steel, Didn't Tomlin take too long to replace J Jones, a below average starter? I would say yes. Do you agree or disagree?


Foster is average. What did he get as a free agent on his second? See my point?

Finney opens up the running game, as he is a dual threat to inline-block to root out and push his man sideways or backward or pull with good results. Playing next to Pouncey and Decastro, the defense will be guessing who is going to pull where, and that makes us even harder to defend.
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Finney strung together a couple of good games. Let's not kid ourselves that he is an elite guard at this time. Does he have better upside than Foster? Of course, he's younger and more mobile. That said, I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. When Finney supplants Foster (possibly next year), I keep them both. Foster's salary is $3.2M. It's not expensive at all in today's guard market. Hell, you could pay 3 Fosters and 3 Finneys for the amount that the Raiders are paying Kelechi Osemele ($11.7M).

Plus, team building is about things other than the salary cap. You keep a guy like Foster around for depth/insurance and guidance/chemistry when you have a young team. Depth/Insurance being the primary reason and team chemistry/guidance coming in second. You are looking at this as an either or thing. I'm looking at it and saying that you can, and should, keep both.

Edit: Who were they going to replace JJ with BEFORE Dupree came back? Moats has been almost as pedestrian this year. Chickillo flashes, but then disappears for long stretches. They rode JJ for what he was until Dupree came back and they could go with Dupree/Harrison.
 
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Coach said:
This depends. If the Steelers get a 3rd round pick and can unload Foster's cap number with Finney being a better player, it makes sense. You really do not want to allocate 3.6 million a year ( Fosters 2017 cap number ) on a backup OL Player, and guard is not that hard of a position to fill.

I think Gilbert is a near Pro bowl level tackle. Hubbard surprised a bit but I think he's become a liability is he played a string of games.
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A third? For Foster? The same guy you basically said is stiff and overpaid and you're going to release anyway? Not happening as most teams would just wait for Coach to work his magic and release a guard who is playing at a near Pro-Bowl level for a guy who has had a couple of good games.
 
Coach said:
Whatever Munchak recommends is fine by me but Tomlin picks who starts. What makes you so sure Tomlin will take his advice?
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Yeah, I'm sure Tomlin will ignore his advice...and Munchak a former HC will just suck it up and say, yes, sir. you know like DL did knowing he could step into a new job the next day if he quit....for eight ******* years
 
SteelBuckeye said:
Finney strung together a couple of good games. Let's not kid ourselves that he is an elite guard at this time. Does he have better upside than Foster? Of course, he's younger and more mobile. That said, I don't throw the baby out with the bath water. When Finney supplants Foster (possibly next year), I keep them both. Foster's salary is $3.2M. It's not expensive at all in today's guard market. Hell, you could pay 3 Fosters and 3 Finneys for the amount that the Raiders are paying Kelechi Osemele ($11.7M).

Plus, team building is about things other than the salary cap. You keep a guy like Foster around for depth/insurance and guidance/chemistry when you have a young team. Depth/Insurance being the primary reason and team chemistry/guidance coming in second. You are looking at this as an either or thing. I'm looking at it and saying that you can, and should, keep both.

Edit: Who were they going to replace JJ with BEFORE Dupree came back? Moats has been almost as pedestrian this year. Chickillo flashes, but then disappears for long stretches. They rode JJ for what he was until Dupree came back and they could go with Dupree/Harrison.
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1 ) Finney has been dominant when starting. Better than " strung together a few good games "

2 ) You don't pay a backup guard 3.2 million for long. But if Finney starts, the Steelers will be doing that. I have Foster's cap number at 3.6 million in 2017. Hence if Finney is better, which 2016 play indicates a trade for Foster makes sense.

3 ) Harrison or Chikillo are better than Jones and either should have started over him. This change should have been made much sooner. Jones hardly see the field now. Tomlin was tardy. Funny as soon as Jones exited out as the starter the pass rush suddenly became better. I noticed Chickillo when he started was double teamed at times. Jones is history unless an injury strikes.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
A third? For Foster? The same guy you basically said is stiff and overpaid and you're going to release anyway? Not happening as most teams would just wait for Coach to work his magic and release a guard who is playing at a near Pro-Bowl level for a guy who has had a couple of good games.
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I've been a Foster fan because he's durable and cheap. Never said he was a stiff, but I did say he was slow because he is. Foster is not a weak link type. I just think Finney is proving he's better.
 
Coach said:
1 ) Finney has been dominant when starting. Better than " strung together a few good games "

2 ) You don't pay a backup guard 3.2 million for long. But if Finney starts, the Steelers will be doing that. I have Foster's cap number at 3.6 million in 2017. Hence if Finney is better, which 2016 play indicates a trade for Foster makes sense.

3 ) Harrison or Chikillo are better than Jones and either should have started over him. This change should have been made much sooner. Jones hardly see the field now. Tomlin was tardy. Funny as soon as Jones exited out as the starter the pass rush suddenly became better. I noticed Chickillo when he started was double teamed at times. Jones is history unless an injury strikes.
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1. He's started two games and been more than solid. I hope he continues on his "upward trajectory, obviously". That said, I'm not ready to hand him a starting job after such a small sample size. Do I hope he continues to progress and stay ready when called upon? Hell Yeah! But he's not starting for me this year unless Foster is injured again.

2. Didn't Cope or someone above point out that Finney isn't under contract for next year? If so, he'll command a higher salary next year. Let's not look at this in a vacuum. Finney is going to COST next year. At that time, you make your decision about Foster. My guess is that considering the market for Guards has dramatically risen in regards to what they're being paid, the Steelers will offer Finney a competitive contract and let him and Foster battle for the starting position in camp next year. If that happens and Finney wins the starting job, I still don't see them trading Foster.

3. Chick got one snap on defense against the Bills. One snap. Obviously they didn't feel he was ready to take a starting position and still don't feel he's ready for significant playing time now that Dupree is back and they've settled on their OLBs. As I said, there was a rotation simply for the fact that Dupree was unavailable. I'm not saying JJ is good. He's trash as a player. What I am saying is that there's a reason that as soon as Dupree was healthy enough to start Moats and Chick saw their playing time drop off the cliff along with Jones'. For Moats I believe it's because he's one of those "just good enough" guys. Just good enough to provide adequate depth in case of injury or to give spot playing time as needed. For Chick, he's shown improvement as a pass rusher, but I don't think they fully trust him yet.
Btw, Jones exited as a starter when Bud came back and they started to slowly work Bud into the lineup. There was never a chance that Chick was going to remain the starter. Never. Next year? Who knows, but if I'm the Steelers, I'm looking for another OLB either in the draft or with a little of that loose change they'll have in terms of the cap.
 
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SteelBuckeye said:
1. He's started two games and been more than solid. I hope he continues on his "upward trajectory, obviously". That said, I'm not ready to hand him a starting job after such a small sample size. Do I hope he continues to progress and stay ready when called upon? Hell Yeah! But he's not starting for me this year unless Foster is injured again.

2. Didn't Cope or someone above point out that Finney isn't under contract for next year? If so, he'll command a higher salary next year. Let's not look at this in a vacuum. Finney is going to COST next year. At that time, you make your decision about Foster. My guess is that considering the market for Guards has dramatically risen in regards to what they're being paid, the Steelers will offer Finney a competitive contract and let him and Foster battle for the starting position in camp next year. If that happens and Finney wins the starting job, I still don't see them trading Foster.

3. Chick got one snap on defense against the Bills. One snap. Obviously they didn't feel he was ready to take a starting position and still don't feel he's ready for significant playing time now that Dupree is back and they've settled on their OLBs. As I said, there was a rotation simply for the fact that Dupree was unavailable. I'm not saying JJ is good. He's trash as a player. What I am saying is that there's a reason that as soon as Dupree was healthy enough to start Moats and Chick saw their playing time drop off the cliff along with Jones'. For Moats I believe it's because he's one of those "just good enough" guys. Just good enough to provide adequate depth in case of injury or to give spot playing time as needed. For Chick, he's shown improvement as a pass rusher, but I don't think they fully trust him yet.
Btw, Jones exited as a starter when Bud came back and they started to slowly work Bud into the lineup. There was never a chance that Chick was going to remain the starter. Never. Next year? Who knows, but if I'm the Steelers, I'm looking for another OLB either in the draft or with a little of that loose change they'll have in terms of the cap.
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Finney will be an Exclusive Rights FA (0,5M to 0,7M), he isn't going anywhere nor cost much
 
Litos said:
of course, between the 2 they are still cheaper than the 20th highest paid guard
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Exactly. You can't have too much quality depth and whomever doesn't win the job will be exactly that. At a price that is more than reasonable in today's market for Guards. If you were to trade Foster, what's your guarantee that you are:

1. Able to get someone as good as he is who will quickly adapt to the way Munch does things.
2. Not going to pay more for that person than you would have for Foster in the first place.

This idea that we should trade the starter occurs whenever a backup has a a good game (or couple of good games). I just don't get it. Why trade away good depth? Especially when we'll have the cap room next year to comfortably keep both of them. We finally get an O-Line that "works" and folks want to trade away the pieces. smh. The idea just isn't well thought out.
 
SteelBuckeye said:
Exactly. You can't have too much quality depth and whomever doesn't win the job will be exactly that. At a price that is more than reasonable in today's market for Guards. If you were to trade Foster, what's your guarantee that you are:

1. Able to get someone as good as he is who will quickly adapt to the way Munch does things.
2. Not going to pay more for that person than you would have for Foster in the first place.

This idea that we should trade the starter occurs whenever a backup has a a good game (or couple of good games). I just don't get it. Why trade away good depth? Especially when we'll have the cap room next year to comfortably keep both of them. We finally get an O-Line that "works" and folks want to trade away the pieces. smh. The idea just isn't well thought out.
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That's without even taking to account that Ramon Foster is a locker room leader. You trade him and what does that say to the rest of the team? "you are just a tradeable card and nothing else, don't care if you work hard or be a role model for the young guys"

Madden Franchise GMs at it's best.
 
1 ) Finney has been dominant when starting. Better than " strung together a few good games "

2 ) You don't pay a backup guard 3.2 million for long. But if Finney starts, the Steelers will be doing that. I have Foster's cap number at 3.6 million in 2017. Hence if Finney is better, which 2016 play indicates a trade for Foster makes sense.

3 ) Harrison or Chikillo are better than Jones and either should have started over him. This change should have been made much sooner. Jones hardly see the field now. Tomlin was tardy. Funny as soon as Jones exited out as the starter the pass rush suddenly became better. I noticed Chickillo when he started was double teamed at times. Jones is history unless an injury strikes.

SteelBuckeye said:
1. He's started two games and been more than solid. I hope he continues on his "upward trajectory, obviously". That said, I'm not ready to hand him a starting job after such a small sample size. Do I hope he continues to progress and stay ready when called upon? Hell Yeah! But he's not starting for me this year unless Foster is injured again.

2. Didn't Cope or someone above point out that Finney isn't under contract for next year? If so, he'll command a higher salary next year. Let's not look at this in a vacuum. Finney is going to COST next year. At that time, you make your decision about Foster. My guess is that considering the market for Guards has dramatically risen in regards to what they're being paid, the Steelers will offer Finney a competitive contract and let him and Foster battle for the starting position in camp next year. If that happens and Finney wins the starting job, I still don't see them trading Foster.

3. Chick got one snap on defense against the Bills. One snap. Obviously they didn't feel he was ready to take a starting position and still don't feel he's ready for significant playing time now that Dupree is back and they've settled on their OLBs. As I said, there was a rotation simply for the fact that Dupree was unavailable. I'm not saying JJ is good. He's trash as a player. What I am saying is that there's a reason that as soon as Dupree was healthy enough to start Moats and Chick saw their playing time drop off the cliff along with Jones'. For Moats I believe it's because he's one of those "just good enough" guys. Just good enough to provide adequate depth in case of injury or to give spot playing time as needed. For Chick, he's shown improvement as a pass rusher, but I don't think they fully trust him yet.
Btw, Jones exited as a starter when Bud came back and they started to slowly work Bud into the lineup. There was never a chance that Chick was going to remain the starter. Never. Next year? Who knows, but if I'm the Steelers, I'm looking for another OLB either in the draft or with a little of that loose change they'll have in terms of the cap.
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I can agree with most of the above, except I think Finney played at an all pro level last week, and played very well before starting a game. This shows he has real ability and its no accident the Steelers rushed for nearly 400 yards in two games he started.

If Finney takes the job, Foster is too expensive for a back up. Hence the Steelers should trade him if I they get value.

Chick has improved, and might start next year but I still say that's a bit of a quesiton mark. At least we know he's not a zero out there as a pass rusher, as Jones is.
 
I will guarantee Foster is on the roster next year. Why? Because it's a bad financial move to get rid of him next year. You don't save $3.59M by cutting Foster next year. You save $1.758M. $.7 of that (max) would go to retain Finney as an ERFA. So now you have $1M to sign a backup G that has to be better than Foster, otherwise you are losing value by paying them more than a million. And if they aren't as good as Foster, then that would be poor value as well. Foster is worth more than $1M and as insurance to be a starter, that is a no brainer to retain him. It's not a move that will be made if you look at the numbers.
 
Cope said:
I will guarantee Foster is on the roster next year. Why? Because it's a bad financial move to get rid of him next year. You don't save $3.59M by cutting Foster next year. You save $1.758M. $.7 of that (max) would go to retain Finney as an ERFA. So now you have $1M to sign a backup G that has to be better than Foster, otherwise you are losing value by paying them more than a million. And if they aren't as good as Foster, then that would be poor value as well. Foster is worth more than $1M and as insurance to be a starter, that is a no brainer to retain him. It's not a move that will be made if you look at the numbers.
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or we could trade him and ***** about backups that can't play as well as the starters.....
 
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