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Empty set short passes same as running?

Bobby Bufford said:
I don't think you even made it to Jr. high, Mr. GED.
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Man your comebacks are extra special, much like the threads you create...

Just a FYI I went to medical school and after graduating I became state certified. One of three fields I completed.
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Not the same as your window licking certification of achievement, but I try..
 
Actually, a good question and worth discussion.

I agree that a lot of the short passes could, basically, considered to be "run plays".

I'm not sure where you might draw the line, though. Catching the ball behind the LoS? I wouldn't think so if the pass was way to the outside. I think the writer got a little bit liberal in their analysis of what might be a "run play" from an Empty set.

Overall, I am not a fan of the Empty set. Even if you are doing short pass plays that might be considered Run plays.

As described in some of the plays with Brown, Juju, Switzer, Washington and Rogers though, it does give you pause in that the D, if they are going to blitz, are almost guaranteed to give up 3 yards or more. Somebody will be open short.

Our OL is more finesse than Smashmouth, I think, so these sets may be playing to our strength.
 
I'd prefer to keep at least one guy in the backfield so as to give the illusion we may run. I know we did that some with the midget a few times last season. It helps keep the defense a bit more honest.
 
I can not stand when they constantly go shotgun empty or not on like 3rd and 2 or 3rd and 3. I remember years ago we kept running the half back draw with davis on 3rd and shorts. Drove me insane
 
BLITZ said:
What is on the menu for yall tomorrow?

I dont want to brag but mi casa is know for the Brats and Ribeyes every 4th. It's not only good. But better than good.
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Kelbasa, grilled fries, and grilled chicken legs.

Sent from my XT1635-01 using Steeler Nation mobile app
 
I like having someone in the backfield at all times as well, in case there is a free man coming at Ben, if no one is coming and non of our Oline get beat immediately then he can be the safety valve.
 
ark steel said:
Actually, a good question and worth discussion.

I agree that a lot of the short passes could, basically, considered to be "run plays".

I'm not sure where you might draw the line, though. Catching the ball behind the LoS? I wouldn't think so if the pass was way to the outside. I think the writer got a little bit liberal in their analysis of what might be a "run play" from an Empty set.

Overall, I am not a fan of the Empty set. Even if you are doing short pass plays that might be considered Run plays.

As described in some of the plays with Brown, Juju, Switzer, Washington and Rogers though, it does give you pause in that the D, if they are going to blitz, are almost guaranteed to give up 3 yards or more. Somebody will be open short.

Our OL is more finesse than Smashmouth, I think, so these sets may be playing to our strength.
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Any pass past the line of scrimmage is a passing play. I would never consider short passes as running plays. Those passes are designed to get that player into space, creating movement. Hopefully clearing a pathway through movement, as your running play your line is creating running lanes.

Empty sets taking that RB out with the intention to pass is just that. The movement of those players to create space.

Now why the Steelers should be good at empty sets is your quick off the balls. Jaysam, Conner, Switz, Rogers,Juju, and Johnson have the makings of a solid empty set. Which should be effective. The idea is you can't cover everyone.

But like every idea it would be good in certain situations and not in others. Depending on your opponents defensive strengths.
 
Coryea said:
I like having someone in the backfield at all times as well, in case there is a free man coming at Ben, if no one is coming and non of our Oline get beat immediately then he can be the safety valve.
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And this is example why you don't run it against those teams that are very effective rushing the passer. For a change up perhaps but that is it.

As Tom Brady is more of your quick release guy that can get the ball out quickly from an empty set.You have to have the pass catchers for that though . (pats have been short from injury)

Ben has a decent release improving his time with Haley's tutelage.

But we know that isn't Ben's strengths. He isn't patient enough for the rink and dink.
 
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slashsteel said:
Man your comebacks are extra special, much like the threads you create...

Just a FYI I went to medical school and after graduating I became state certified. One of three fields I completed.
.
Not the same as your window licking certification of achievement, but I try..
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I wouldn't guess a high education level on this one.
 
slashsteel said:
And this is example why you don't run it against those teams that are very effective rushing the passer. For a change up perhaps but that is it.

As Tom Brady is more of your quick release guy that can get the ball out quickly from an empty set.You have to have the pass catchers for that though . (pats have been short from injury)

Ben has a decent release improving his time with Haley's tutelage.

But we know that isn't Ben's strengths. He isn't patient enough for the rink and dink.
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There were plays in that video where he got it out quick and made a completion.
 
slashsteel said:
Any pass past the line of scrimmage is a passing play. I would never consider short passes as running plays. Those passes are designed to get that player into space, creating movement. Hopefully clearing a pathway through movement, as your running play your line is creating running lanes.

Empty sets taking that RB out with the intention to pass is just that. The movement of those players to create space.

Now why the Steelers should be good at empty sets is your quick off the balls. Jaysam, Conner, Switz, Rogers,Juju, and Johnson have the makings of a solid empty set. Which should be effective. The idea is you can't cover everyone.

But like every idea it would be good in certain situations and not in others. Depending on your opponents defensive strengths.
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Bill Walsh, Andy Reid and west-coast coaches say they do use the short passing game as their running game to one degree or another - not necessarily out of empty sets. I recall all those quick passes to Roger Craig, Ricky Watters et al.
 
slashsteel said:
Any pass past the line of scrimmage is a passing play. I would never consider short passes as running plays. Those passes are designed to get that player into space, creating movement. Hopefully clearing a pathway through movement, as your running play your line is creating running lanes.

Empty sets taking that RB out with the intention to pass is just that. The movement of those players to create space.

Now why the Steelers should be good at empty sets is your quick off the balls. Jaysam, Conner, Switz, Rogers,Juju, and Johnson have the makings of a solid empty set. Which should be effective. The idea is you can't cover everyone.

But like every idea it would be good in certain situations and not in others. Depending on your opponents defensive strengths.
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I do think of some short passes as running plays. I hadn't tried to put any parameters to that thought until this article.

I'd say these fit as, basically, a run play:

Any forward pass that is caught between the tackles and no more than 1 or 2 yards of the LoS.
 
Bobby Bufford said:
I wouldn't guess a high education level on this one.
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Nobody would guess a higher education with you pop.

Especially when it comes to football 101. You ask a lot of dumb questions, ones that you should know the answers but don't.

But you be you. I look forward to your next thread, asking some dumb *** question.
 
ark steel said:
I do think of some short passes as running plays. I hadn't tried to put any parameters to that thought until this article.

I'd say these fit as, basically, a run play:

Any forward pass that is caught between the tackles and no more than 1 or 2 yards of the LoS.
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A run play your online is trying to physically manufacturer running lanes. I really think that is the key parameter in comparison. Passing plays that O-line is holding down the fort and the pass catchers are trying to create the plays through movement.

Have to agree to disagree with you on this one point...............
 
Bobby Bufford said:
There were plays in that video where he got it out quick and made a completion.
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Of course he can do it. He could even do it on the regular. It isn't a physical trait holding him back. He just prefers those chunk/splash plays. Many plays Ben could have dumped it off, only to hold it a little longer. And for him it often works because he can scramble people down the field open.
 
Bobby Bufford said:
Bill Walsh, Andy Reid and west-coast coaches say they do use the short passing game as their running game to one degree or another - not necessarily out of empty sets. I recall all those quick passes to Roger Craig, Ricky Watters et al.
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I think this is inaccurate.
 
I hate the empty set with the Steelers. They like to challenge down the field and that takes time. If I were a defense I would stack the line and make it impossible to know who was coming free. You can't do that with the pats**** because their entire offense is a dump off or a short route. The Steelers do better when a RB can help chip or go to the flat.
 
slashsteel said:
Of course he can do it. He could even do it on the regular. It isn't a physical trait holding him back. He just prefers those chunk/splash plays. Many plays Ben could have dumped it off, only to hold it a little longer. And for him it often works because he can scramble people down the field open.
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Yea, and that's what makes him BB. Sometimes it's maddening when he throws a bomb on 3rd and short, and misses. But he also hits for a big play so often.
 
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